Pinned DE 2.1 Balance Patch

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  • DarkSky wrote:

    You could maximize this spell by casting on opponent and then shoot with 45% of your army (raiders plus destroyers) on it.
    I think we're safe here, considering the current state of our Raiders slot.
    3 Reapers plus 20 Raven Cloaks is below 27% and after that we don't really have shooting units that are worth taking on their own (even counting RC here might be a stretch) and investing 20-25% of your roster into a plan that requires a specific spell to be cast is not a valid tactic (I can already see those 2 Binding Scrolls waving to me from my opponent's roster ;) )

    With all that said, should the situation change for our shooting units, such a spell could actually be OP

    Best Wishes
    Ozzy
  • Ozzy666 wrote:

    DarkSky wrote:

    You could maximize this spell by casting on opponent and then shoot with 45% of your army (raiders plus destroyers) on it.
    I think we're safe here, considering the current state of our Raiders slot.3 Reapers plus 20 Raven Cloaks is below 27% and after that we don't really have shooting units that are worth taking on their own (even counting RC here might be a stretch) and investing 20-25% of your roster into a plan that requires a specific spell to be cast is not a valid tactic (I can already see those 2 Binding Scrolls waving to me from my opponent's roster ;) )

    With all that said, should the situation change for our shooting units, such a spell could actually be OP

    Best Wishes
    Ozzy
    Agreed, RR to wound with shooting isn't something we benefit from because were not a "shooting" army...so why even bother having the spell. We should have something close combat oriented because that's what our army is being moved towards. anything to do with shooting should be tabled.
  • DarkSky wrote:

    Nemeroth wrote:

    DarkSky wrote:

    Boomvalk wrote:

    Darksky wrote:

    So I think the spell effect is very well chosen and one of the best combinations of game play and (perceived) fluff in the book. I'd lean very heavily against changing this, when an casting level adjustment should be able to solve all issues.
    What casting value do you think it should have? <8+> { 10+} ?
    I would give it 8/10, yes.
    I would go 9 or even 8 for the shooty version our shooting doesn’t hit well enough for rr to wound to be worth more.
    I think you need to accommodate for the scenario of "everyone shooting at target". You could maximize this spell by casting on opponent and then shoot with 45% of your army (raiders plus destroyers) on it. Not quite sure right now if missile spells also count as ranged attacks. Flaming Breath from Hydra is an opportunity as well though.
    RT will want to make sure that making the spell to cheap will not suddenly make DE very strong at obliterating enemy units.

    From a process point of view I also like small incremental steps better than overshooting. - 2 clvl is already a big buff. I mean this is equal to what Unerring Strike received and that spell makes or breaks a whole Path
    Granted, and that would be devastating if one succeeded in pulling that off. It also means potentially building your list around one spell. I’d rather have some sort of boosted cc version, say instead of RR to wound for ranged maybe RR to wound including Death Trance for Casting Value 11/12
  • I want to add in, that warhammer is not only played by the best of the best. It is also played by average players. Some armies are much harder to play than others and I find this to be the main problem for DE. We DO have lots of effect full stuff, only it is near impossible to pull it off for anyone but the best of us.


    1. What should see an increase that didn’t get one, or what increase should be greater?

    None - the list is already at the lowest tier


    2. What should get a decrease, or what decrease should be greater?

    • All infantry, except spears. The army lack more wounds/better save badly as they have near no defense against anything and the 6++ from the altar is just a bad joke. When you take 12 wounds from a catapult, weaponteam or whatnot, and you remove half the unit, saving 2 does not matter at all. After all, this was only gameturn 1.
    • RBTs in my opinion are too expensive, as they are weak compared to other races. I know they get the multishot, but in most cases I would MUCH rather have a 90 pts single bolt that hit on 4+ than pay double for the multishots. They are hard to leave out, but block options to buy more wounds for infantry. I would suggest they are lowered to 160 each if we are only to change pts. After all they are just 4 wounds and not 5. They do not fight well in combat compared to dwarves or warmachines with higher crewnumber.
    • The characters should be cheaper. Being S and T3 makes a HUGE difference compared to other armies. IT means an elven fighter must chose between staying alive or being able to kill stuff as we only have 4 attacks and no real way to boost it. This problem is much less of a problem for most other armies, as they have T5 heroes that is combined with the same amount of saves. But having S5 means you do not need to boost S much. But the elves need to boost their S badly to do any damage at all. 2+ AS will stop any elf unless he has stuff.
    • I love the idea of DE. They are just so bad at making up for their weaknesses. Other armies does not have this problem to the same degree. Look at OK. Only weakness is semi low AS, but they have higher T. Oh and low Agi, but then they have units that reduce enemy Agi with 3!!! All of a sudden OK are first in combat as well. DE cannot deal with this. AT... ALL...


    3. What combos do you see now available that were not available before?
    • None of worth.
    • The 5 point reduction here and there did not do enough to make up for the problem at hand.
    • The value of higher Agi and Lighting Reflexes is greatly overvalued when you cannot keep the model alive.
    • For instance 50 Empire Heavy Infantry - Halberdiers with full command against 22 Dread Judges with Full Command. Both units are around 555 pts. 7 wide. No other bonuses except General and BSB nearby, which is very common! After 8 rounds of combat, assuming noone breaks, The elves will finally kill the last Empire model. Problem is, there are only 3 elven models left. I sure hope that nothing managed to kill 3 elves on the way in, as that would snowball fast... We are talking the ELITE elves with all their might, that can't even beat a core-unit of empire. Let discuss what bonusses the elves can get to help them? Stars allign or alchemy +1/2 AS. That is about it. What spell will be dispelled every single round if that is the combat that matters? What about characters, they are cheaper for Empire as well. What about shooting, better with the empire. What about magic, they have more and more and more of everything. And the same problem arise against every other army. The elite elves are just average humans at the end of the day when we need to count up victory points.


    4.what combos do you see now NOT available that were available before?

    • One of the things that gave me an edge before was, that nearly no matter what I was able to use 3 dice for the small Unerring Strike and 4 dice for the other damage spell. This did help me deal with monsters and characters. Now they dispell the one spell I have enough dice for or it will most likely be too late anyways.

    5. What questions would you like to see RT answer about the adjustments?
    • The Increase in magic item cost and key units, to deal with enemy key units, were big. Especially our key magic items and spells, re-directors and monsters. The decrease in other units were near zero. You added some to the buy-in of the unit and decreased some to extra models - so no change. When I try to make the same list as before, I cannot. It got too expensive. On key stuff. So the tier 4 army just got WEAKER, which does not help much compared to tier 1 and 2 then... even though they got some nerfs as well.
    • The core characters, a Master Oracle and a BSB are so expensive, that we can only take away from special units or magic items. So the list gets weaker.
    • Crossbowmen will never be worth more than 2-3 pts, because they take up too much space so our other units are in the way. We get -2 to hit from this problem. And then there is long range, terrain, enemy covering units, the need to move a little to be in range or in LoS, so the unit is just soooo worthless! In game play there is no real way around this problem. Also 5-10 hits with S3 does not change anything anymore. Not after units got so big with 8th ED. They need a whole new set of rules.
    • I REALLY want to play with infantry. The other armies just have so much stuff that will kill our infantry way before the end of the game. If not by magic and even the worst of shooting, then after they pass their steadfast and just keep feeding us cheap models. See the example above
    • I give up before the game starts in many scenarios because the enemy has twice as many scoring units as I can possibly make sense of getting. And they often even have strong + cheap core-scoring units. Or just scoring units with many, many wounds that will take 8 rounds of combat to kill. I would so love to have more scoring unit-options so I can begin to compete.
    • Who uses the 6th spell in Divination? EVER? :) I have never seen or heard about anyone using it.




    Sadly, I could go on for a long time still. I do not like to complain.. but I do like to play and I like it more when I get to play with fewer Hydras and chariots and more infantry models.
  • noir wrote:

    how on earth is that even allowed :O
    Like this


    ++ Empire of Sonnstahl (Empire of Sonnstahl 2.1) [4,500pts] ++

    + Characters +

    Marshal [225pts]: Battle Standard Bearer, Great Tactician

    Marshal [480pts]: Army General, Great Griffon, Paired Weapons, Shield
    . Special Equipment: Ghostly Guard, Hero's Heart, Winter Cloak

    Wizard [375pts]: Pyromancy, Wizard Master
    . Special Equipment: Obsidian Rock

    + Core +

    Heavy Infantry [275pts]: Champion, 23x Heavy Infantry, Musician, Standard Bearer
    . Banner Enchantment: Household Standard

    Light Infantry [265pts]: Crossbow (4+), 18x Light Infantry, Musician

    Light Infantry [265pts]: Crossbow (4+), 18x Light Infantry, Musician

    Light Infantry [325pts]: Crossbow (4+), 18x Light Infantry, Musician, Standard Bearer
    . Banner Enchantment: Banner of Unity

    + Special +

    Arcane Engine [280pts]: Arcane Shield

    Arcane Engine [290pts]: Foresight

    Imperial Guard [330pts]: Champion, 20x Imperial Guard, Musician, Shield, Standard Bearer

    Imperial Guard [330pts]: Champion, 20x Imperial Guard, Musician, Shield, Standard Bearer

    + Imperial Auxiliaries +

    Reiters [285pts]: 10x Reiter, Repeater Gun (4+)

    Reiters [285pts]: 10x Reiter, Repeater Gun (4+)

    + Sunna's Fury +

    Steam Tank [490pts]

    ++ Total: [4,500pts] ++
  • noir wrote:

    Izomov wrote:

    zertuiop wrote:

    Come on he has 75 Dread Legionnaires. The shooting won't kill all that in 2 turns.
    i play an EoS list with 54 accurate crossbows, 60 S4 AP2 and a master pyromancer that would like to disagree :p
    how on earth is that even allowed :O
    average is only 64 kills in two turns and that is accounting he doesn't do anything to mitigate anythng.

    He will certainly still reach you, chaff your imperial guards and then die on your next turn. But he will certainly survive to reach combat.

    :P I hate facing EOS they just have all the tools to deal with DEs
    I think the problem is mostly about points
  • zertuiop wrote:

    noir wrote:

    Izomov wrote:

    zertuiop wrote:

    Come on he has 75 Dread Legionnaires. The shooting won't kill all that in 2 turns.
    i play an EoS list with 54 accurate crossbows, 60 S4 AP2 and a master pyromancer that would like to disagree :p
    how on earth is that even allowed :O
    average is only 64 kills in two turns and that is accounting he doesn't do anything to mitigate anythng.
    He will certainly still reach you, chaff your imperial guards and then die on your next turn. But he will certainly survive to reach combat.

    :P I hate facing EOS they just have all the tools to deal with DEs
    Remember, the crossbows get to SnS for the IG ;)
  • zertuiop wrote:

    :P I hate facing EOS they just have all the tools to deal with DEs
    Yeap, that’s just a bad match up...put that list up against some of the WDG feldraks, some of the UD shenanigans or even just KOE suddenly it’s the EoS that are on the back foot.

    Just to sum it up, just because you to play the army on certain way and it doesn’t work against one particular army doesn’t mean that one army is OP and broken - a list that’s good against 5, a bit average against 6 and bad against 5 armies is just a balanced list. You’ve got to look at the list in the scheme of all the armies out there - unless you meta is just EoS, to which I’d say sorry but you’re just gonna have to play a different style of DE...
  • KiRaHyuU wrote:

    tin unless you meta is just EoS, to which I’d say sorry but you’re just gonna have to play a different style of DE...
    I would be very interested in a list that would really work against EOS.

    They have canons so they can take on the monsters.

    They have bodyguards, numbers and unbreakable so most shock troups get swamped.

    They have the best light shooting so no shooting match here.

    They have great magic and piro so no avoidance.

    I would say the key is speed and Vanguard Corsairs with Dread Knights could do the trick. I have this list that might be fast enough.


    But it is silly
    I think the problem is mostly about points
  • From across the aisle..

    Hydras and divine altars are always the issue, the 4++ they have make cannons very inefficient.

    The hydras are vulnerable to pyromancy, but just make sure to stop flaming swords and zone the Wizard from doing pyroclastic flow on them.

    Generally, play wide, make sure the EoS player cannot have bsb and general within range of multiple combats. Without the support structure the humans will break and run.
  • Cam wrote:

    KiRaHyuU wrote:

    Double master woah, whole list me please!
    Display Spoiler
    ++ Dread Elves (Dread Elves 2.1) ++

    + Characters +

    Cult Priest [685pts]: Battle Standard Bearer, Divine Altar, Paired Weapons
    . Cult of Cadaron
    . Special Equipment: Hero's Heart

    Oracle [550pts]: Army General, Divination, Light Armour, Wizard Master
    . Special Equipment: Essence of Mithril - Standard Size only, Talisman of Shielding, Talisman of the Void

    Oracle [565pts]: Cult of Yema, Light Armour, Occultism, Wizard Master
    . Special Equipment: Destiny's Call - Standard Size only, Moraec's Reaping

    + Core +

    Dark Raiders [215pts]: 5x Dark Raider, Repeater Crossbows (4+)

    Dark Raiders [215pts]: 5x Dark Raider, Repeater Crossbows (4+)

    Dark Raiders [165pts]: 5x Dark Raider

    Dread Legionnaires [533pts]: Champion, 32x Dread Legionnaire, Musician, Spears, Standard Bearer
    . Banner Enchantment: Flaming Standard

    + Special +

    Dancers of Yema [647pts]: Champion, 24x Dancer of Yema, Musician, Standard Bearer
    . Banner Enchantment: Banner of Gar Daecos

    Dread Knights [441pts]: 7x Dread Knight, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer
    . Banner Enchantment: Banner of Blood

    Harpies [135pts]: 5x Harpy

    Medusa [135pts]: Halberd

    + Destroyers +

    Hunting Chariot [210pts]

    ++ Total: [4,496] ++

    Submitted this list to a tournament in December. Shall see how it goes. What I’ve found is the redundancy is so good. The magic missiles are outperforming the bolties so far and then lots of combat buffs are always good, the dancers end up stupidly good. They basically went through a full Asklanders army themselves the other weekend, then over performed vs SA too. They’ve done stupidly good before last weekend too, as has a PW medusa. Bit annoyed I’ve got a halberd one in now tbh, even though on paper it’s very nice.

    Shall see how it goes, no doubt it’ll fall down outside my local meta. Especially cause I’m just a dabbler in DE and used to R4 4+ units. Coming from DH I have tried all the special infantry to have at least 2 blocks, purely cause it’s easier to adapt, but dancers just outperform everything so far. I really dislike Judges, maybe that’s a bias though.

    I’m a little upset I have no witchcraft but having no ranged damage to force a fight is a bit daft, and the bolties are lacklustre or amazing and nothing in between. Magic is just so much more reliable than shooting just now.

    Either way shall be good fun before I have to shelf them for ETC. I definitely don’t think infantry DE is as unviable made out but you definitely have to tailor your army for infantry and they are costly. Maybe it’s the tailoring the list that’s not fun, I’ve stopped trying 3 blocks and went to 2 blocks. It’s definitely more fun and less rps. I’ve dropped down to two blocks just because I cant find a third block worth more than some ranged plus knights. The knights aren't amazing but they do their role better than TH or DJ do their specific role.

    Anyway that’s just complete rambling for the 2.1 update from me. It’s maybe wrong, maybe right, but definitely my experience since August. Overall I think the DE update versus the DH update is worlds apart even though they are the same tier. DE and OK maybe need the most scrutiny after the current update.

    Or maybe I’m just completely wrong? That’s definitely more likely! Especially as I just keep dabbling with DE rather than giving them a proper run.