SE Late 2019 Beta update - AFTER PLAY feedback

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  • SE Late 2019 Beta update - AFTER PLAY feedback

    Hello there leaf stalkers!

    As you may know, SE (along with other forest hating factions) recently received a Beta points update for some units. It's been out in the wild for a few weeks now, chance for many of us to get some games in, maybe even a tournament!

    We had a thread for initial community impressions, but now we would like to hear peoples experiences after having put the updated entries on the table and tried them out a bit more.

    What new combos have you found? What worked better, what did not? Has internal balance improved from your actual play experience? external balance? Are there things that have gone too far or been missed?

    Give us your feedback from actual games you have played with the new beta point costs. If you have general meta thoughts not based in specific play experience in games post beta, please post them in the other feedback thread. I'd like to keep this one to examples / lessons learned from practical post beta gameplay if possible.

    The project values your honest, constructive, and politely expressed practical feedback :)

    Data Analysis

  • Noldor wrote:

    I like the fact, that Elklord can now use Hailshot together with Titanmight and Armor of Destiny.
    I rather take 2+/4++ (fortitude) than 3+/4++ (aegis) since flaming range attacks are most of the time AP0.

    But then, with Death Cheater + Titanic Might, I still can't get him the Horn of the Wild Hunt.. Which would be the best Character to take one..
    KEEP CALM AND PLAY THE 9TH AGE
  • Skarloc wrote:

    Noldor wrote:

    I like the fact, that Elklord can now use Hailshot together with Titanmight and Armor of Destiny.
    I rather take 2+/4++ (fortitude) than 3+/4++ (aegis) since flaming range attacks are most of the time AP0.
    But then, with Death Cheater + Titanic Might, I still can't get him the Horn of the Wild Hunt.. Which would be the best Character to take one..
    I would have thought that 3+/4++ (aegis) was better against flaming than 2+ as the fortitude save goes away while the aegis stays? So 3+/4++ becomes the equivalent of 1.5+ AS.

    Horn really comes down to if you like long charges or not.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • played a few games on the weekend with a 2.5 treeman list the .5 is the tree-father ancient. I used the drums on a blade dancer chieftain as you can now fit it in with hero heart, aether icon but cant with the distracting spear. i like it had an effect on the game even when i did not make the charge as he had set up for the unit to flee which is what i want from a one use only item to be useful even if it is not optimum. but the item is only limited to this guy and maybe a shapeshifter because of the on foot restriction. would see it more if we had heroes to lead the rangers and spears.

    The list had a 65 pt discount not counting core. think are core archers could go down in cost. there is still a core tax on them and i don't think it will impact avoidance too much as there is still a bow limit so you would rather have quality shot in avoidance/shooty list. magic is still the biggest hurdle for are shooting to overcome.

    blade dancer feel like a unit that needs magic to function because without it you soon become combat ineffective by taking chip damage from steadfast units but with it can become a unit that runs the game. so not a unit your going to see in every list unless they specifically build a list for them.
  • Feedback fro the characters section. If we are only talking about points:

    Shapeshifter is too expensive an upgrade in general. There also needs to be a distinction between prince and chieftain because the potential is very different and the kit is very limited on a chief. My suggestion is that this needs to be a seperate character entry when the LAB comes around, but for now the prince needs reducing by about 20-30 points and the chief by about 40-50 points.

    Lifeseed feathers are still a little expensive because you need a chassis for the item. Its probably worth 80 points, but if you are taking it on a character, that character is going to be expensive and is reducing its potential in other items, so is harder to protect etc. This essentially comes down to having the item on a flying avoidance character or a dragon where the protection of a unit isn't needed and defense cant be improved.
    But if its on a dragon, you font make use of the item to its full potential. Hail shot is better. The item needs to be around 50 points.

    Magic Banners - these banners are situational and at least in my experience I am not tacking on one of these banners to a unit where there is one already. I am specifically paying for a banner where normally I wouldn't have one for the privilege of taking one of these magic banners (general SE problem with banners). I.e. On a flanking unit like kestrels or huntsmen, silent mist banner is semi-useful. However usually i dont take a banner on these units because they dont need it. So if I want this option I am paying another 20 points for the privilege. Has this been taken into account when pricing the banners? I would reduce the points on all banners by about 10 points to account for this. I think they are fairly priced in a bubble, but the fact that I need a banner upgrade makes them all too expensive for me.

    curse of the black stag - again not a point problem but a usage problem. If I take this item, I limit my armour enchantment slot. The points need to be reduced to reflect this weakness.

    shielding bark: this will never be used. destinies call is much better for only 10 points more and in the same slot. Because it can only be used on a foot character, there is only one type of character that can benefit from this item. That is the SECOND shapeshifter prince (this is because our foot characters will always take a magic weapon and a cheiftain will have no points remaining for protection). The first one will always take destinys call because 4++ is just better. then if you are taking a second one, this is a better option than some others for protection. However one main weakness of the shapeshifter is pyromancy and therefore this will never be used. needs to be 50 points or less and the restriction for on foot removed. armour slot is worth more than the 5++ artifact slot from the book. Also druids cant take armour - if they could it might be a useable item at this points level....

    Sacred seeds is a little expensive for such a small wood and again the chasis for the caddy is expensive. If it could be taken by a dryad matriarch it would be used a bit more and fairly pointed (not to mention fulffy as hell). You have to be in base contact withthe forest when it is delpoyed so this means you wizard is in the firing line where your combat troops are going to be or you are using it for cover which isnt that useful for the points. You probably dont take it on a combat charater because as has been outlined above, other options are necassary. I suggest a 10 point decrease.

    unicorn - so you pay 50 points for your ward and 60 for +1 to make it a 4++. and then you are saying that you are running around solo, because otherwise you just take a horse. so you pay 90 points for a 4++ on top of a horse chassis and the privilege of running solo. Ill take my chances with an eagle king thank you very much and have more mobility and an extra HP and hard target. clearly the rules are the problem here but it needs to be about 30-40 points rather than 60. then you are paying 80-90 points for a 4++ rather than 110. I still dont think it will be taken.

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  • Henrypmiller wrote:


    Lifeseed feathers are still a little expensive because you need a chassis for the item. Its probably worth 80 points, but if you are taking it on a character, that character is going to be expensive and is reducing its potential in other items, so is harder to protect etc. This essentially comes down to having the item on a flying avoidance character or a dragon where the protection of a unit isn't needed and defense cant be improved.
    But if its on a dragon, you font make use of the item to its full potential. Hail shot is better. The item needs to be around 50 points.

    The real killer is that is prevents you from taking a magic melee weapon, so a guy on Dragon can't take say Titanic Might, and you're not taking a Dragon to waltz around shooting a bow. You don't put on a BsB or Druid either, because trying to get into correct shooting range may interfere with Spell or Hold the Ground range

    Ultimately you compare the cost of Chieftain with Feathers with a Repeater Bolt Thrower or Skewerer and realize just how inferior it is. Basically it is a gimmick item and given that it takes up magic weapon slot it's not worth more than 30 points



    Magic Banners - these banners are situational and at least in my experience I am not tacking on one of these banners to a unit where there is one already. I am specifically paying for a banner where normally I wouldn't have one for the privilege of taking one of these magic banners (general SE problem with banners). I.e. On a flanking unit like kestrels or huntsmen, silent mist banner is semi-useful. However usually i dont take a banner on these units because they dont need it. So if I want this option I am paying another 20 points for the privilege. Has this been taken into account when pricing the banners? I would reduce the points on all banners by about 10 points to account for this. I think they are fairly priced in a bubble, but the fact that I need a banner upgrade makes them all too expensive for me.

    Generally speaking Command Groups need diffentiated costing. Musician on light troops? Standards in general?

    shielding bark: this will never be used. destinies call is much better for only 10 points more and in the same slot. Because it can only be used on a foot character, there is only one type of character that can benefit from this item. That is the SECOND shapeshifter prince (this is because our foot characters will always take a magic weapon and a cheiftain will have no points remaining for protection). The first one will always take destinys call because 4++ is just better. then if you are taking a second one, this is a better option than some others for protection. However one main weakness of the shapeshifter is pyromancy and therefore this will never be used. needs to be 50 points or less and the restriction for on foot removed. armour slot is worth more than the 5++ artifact slot from the book. Also druids cant take armour - if they could it might be a useable item at this points level....


    Aye

    unicorn - so you pay 50 points for your ward and 60 for +1 to make it a 4++. and then you are saying that you are running around solo, because otherwise you just take a horse. so you pay 90 points for a 4++ on top of a horse chassis and the privilege of running solo. Ill take my chances with an eagle king thank you very much and have more mobility and an extra HP and hard target. clearly the rules are the problem here but it needs to be about 30-40 points rather than 60. then you are paying 80-90 points for a 4++ rather than 110. I still dont think it will be taken.


    This is one that's not salvageable by points. You rarely want a Druid running around solo, and the only unit she can join is Heath Riders, which is kinda shaky. Taking a Unicorn or Elven Steed for a druid is actually so problematic that the options likely wouldn't cause trouble if they were completely free.

    If only a Unicorn actually did something for it's unit... but even if changes were an option SE is not a synergy army

  • While I agree about a lot of this feedback, I think it's important to keep expectations in check. Getting a data based process where the fact these things are largely unused gets recognised is a big initial step. If the reductions are conservative to start its not what we would ideally hope but it is a start in the right direction. I have argued for larger special item reductions internally but they are unlikely to suddenly change by orders of magnitude from 5pts-ish, if at all.

    Also, I just stuffed up with the unicorn. We had very limited options at the time, and I didn't have all the information I have now. But MR(1) as it was before would be at least slightly better than it is now. In a LAB context I might argue for 6" aura MR which I think would be a bit more useful and reasonable. But that's not where we are at right now.

    Data Analysis

  • Hachiman Taro wrote:

    While I agree about a lot of this feedback, I think it's important to keep expectations in check. Getting a data based process where the fact these things are largely unused gets recognised is a big initial step. If the reductions are conservative to start its not what we would ideally hope but it is a start in the right direction. I have argued for larger special item reductions internally but they are unlikely to suddenly change by orders of magnitude from 5pts-ish, if at all.

    Also, I just stuffed up with the unicorn. We had very limited options at the time, and I didn't have all the information I have now. But MR(1) as it was before would be at least slightly better than it is now. In a LAB context I might argue for 6" aura MR which I think would be a bit more useful and reasonable. But that's not where we are at right now.
    With all due respect, you aren't going to get data because a lot of the items simply wont be used for the reasons I laid out :)

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  • Just played with my VC against SE with Lifeseed Feathers and it over very quickly.

    Amusing thing was that Lifeseed Feathers actually killed a Vampire Knight and had a shot at killing my General. When the dice rolled however it proved why its worse than a standard boltthrower however.

    Game also showed something else. Without Treefathers SE need to be pretty lucky to handle cowboys as my Vampires wafted off Bladedancers and Huntsmen with little trouble
  • Here are my thoughts after playing several games with an all-elf combat list.

    Heath Rider price drop + Predator Pennant drop puts them in a very decent spot. The Devastating charge effects is what this unit needs to be impactful, especially when it's 10+ strong.

    Horn of the Wild Hunt:
    It allows more aggressive play by enabling a safety net for combo charges. It also makes 10+ swiftstride charges quite reliable, helping out with "sucker punch" charges.

    The price drops overall allowed me to get the Crown of Autocracy in the list, an item it was sorely missing. A Ld8 Druid general can only get you so far.

    I feel that the elven part of the list is at a very decent spot currently, the only unit that I keep putting back on the shelf is the Wild Huntsmen: I know they hit like trucks but I'd rather have them be cheaper and more easier to control at the expense of hitting power. As it stands, I'll always prefer a unit of 10 Heath Riders with Predator Banner over the equivalent points in Wild Huntsmen.
  • SmithF wrote:



    I feel that the elven part of the list is at a very decent spot currently, the only unit that I keep putting back on the shelf is the Wild Huntsmen: I know they hit like trucks but I'd rather have them be cheaper and more easier to control at the expense of hitting power. As it stands, I'll always prefer a unit of 10 Heath Riders with Predator Banner over the equivalent points in Wild Huntsmen.
    Peaked my curiosity... :)

    Would you consider the trade off between Heath Riders + Pennant vs Wild Huntsmen a feature or a bug?

    It feels to me like you get bodies/survivability and reliability in exchange for lower damage in the Heath Riders. Which kind of equates to what you are looking for in the Huntsmen..?
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • Fleshbeast wrote:

    SmithF wrote:

    I feel that the elven part of the list is at a very decent spot currently, the only unit that I keep putting back on the shelf is the Wild Huntsmen: I know they hit like trucks but I'd rather have them be cheaper and more easier to control at the expense of hitting power. As it stands, I'll always prefer a unit of 10 Heath Riders with Predator Banner over the equivalent points in Wild Huntsmen.
    Peaked my curiosity... :)
    Would you consider the trade off between Heath Riders + Pennant vs Wild Huntsmen a feature or a bug?

    It feels to me like you get bodies/survivability and reliability in exchange for lower damage in the Heath Riders. Which kind of equates to what you are looking for in the Huntsmen..?
    And core pts, scoring (vs light troops etc)

    It's an interesting comparison.

    454 10x Heath Riders, Full Command, Predator Pennant
    446 7x Wild Huntsmen, Shields, Champion.

    Normally I think you'd see the WH compared to Kestrels (probably also unfavourably). While I can see advantages (and slightly different roles) for both it's definitely one worth considering I think. Thanks for bringing it up.

    Data Analysis