Pinned DL 2.3 Feedback thread

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  • Doing some calculations. 5 fiends unhiging jaw 550 pts vs 6 wretched ones 540 pts.

    Round 1

    First fiends charge and swing on 2+ 3+ rerolling. Deal 7.5 wounds on average, not bad.

    Then wretched ones (which are broken in my opinion) deal 6d6+6 str4 autohits, dealing 8,5 wounds on average. They dont care if they lose the round.

    Round 2

    3 fiends (7 wounds) vs 4 wretched ones (11 wounds). Fiends swing first dealing 4,5 wounds. Then wretched ones swing 4d6+4 autohits dealing 5,5 wounds.

    Round 3

    1 fiend (2 wounds) vs 2 wretched ones (6 wounds). Fiend swings, dealing 1,5 wounds, 2 wretched ones swing back, dealing 2,5 wounds to the fiend.

    Round 4

    Fiend deals 1,5 wounds again, dies in return.

    As I have predicted a close fight, even against its intended foe. Take in account that they have the best maniphestation possible (unhighing jaw) and even then they are grinded down in the end.
    scissors: "OMG ROCK IS SUPER OVERPOWERED! NERF IT!!" "what about paper?" "paper is fine"

    Photos of models/armies from ETC 2017:

    Cool models seen at ETC 2017
  • skrak wrote:

    Doing some calculations. 5 fiends unhiging jaw 550 pts vs 6 wretched ones 540 pts.

    Round 1

    First fiends charge and swing on 2+ 3+ rerolling. Deal 7.5 wounds on average, not bad.

    Then wretched ones (which are broken in my opinion) deal 6d6+6 str4 autohits, dealing 8,5 wounds on average. They dont care if they lose the round.

    Round 2

    3 fiends (7 wounds) vs 4 wretched ones (11 wounds). Fiends swing first dealing 4,5 wounds. Then wretched ones swing 4d6+4 autohits dealing 5,5 wounds.

    Round 3

    1 fiend (2 wounds) vs 2 wretched ones (6 wounds). Fiend swings, dealing 1,5 wounds, 2 wretched ones swing back, dealing 2,5 wounds to the fiend.

    Round 4

    Fiend deals 1,5 wounds again, dies in return.

    As I have predicted a close fight, even against its intended foe. Take in account that they have the best maniphestation possible (unhighing jaw) and even then they are grinded down in the end.
    5 fiends do 11 hp at first round, not 7.5

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  • IoRi78 wrote:

    skrak wrote:

    Doing some calculations. 5 fiends unhiging jaw 550 pts vs 6 wretched ones 540 pts.

    Round 1

    First fiends charge and swing on 2+ 3+ rerolling. Deal 7.5 wounds on average, not bad.

    Then wretched ones (which are broken in my opinion) deal 6d6+6 str4 autohits, dealing 8,5 wounds on average. They dont care if they lose the round.

    Round 2

    3 fiends (7 wounds) vs 4 wretched ones (11 wounds). Fiends swing first dealing 4,5 wounds. Then wretched ones swing 4d6+4 autohits dealing 5,5 wounds.

    Round 3

    1 fiend (2 wounds) vs 2 wretched ones (6 wounds). Fiend swings, dealing 1,5 wounds, 2 wretched ones swing back, dealing 2,5 wounds to the fiend.

    Round 4

    Fiend deals 1,5 wounds again, dies in return.

    As I have predicted a close fight, even against its intended foe. Take in account that they have the best maniphestation possible (unhighing jaw) and even then they are grinded down in the end.
    5 fiends do 11 hp at first round, not 7.5
    I think his calculations are OK, becouse of the 5+ fortitude.
    15 attacks, 13'5 impacts, 11 wound, 7'5 after saves
  • Dragus wrote:

    IoRi78 wrote:

    skrak wrote:

    Doing some calculations. 5 fiends unhiging jaw 550 pts vs 6 wretched ones 540 pts.

    Round 1

    First fiends charge and swing on 2+ 3+ rerolling. Deal 7.5 wounds on average, not bad.

    Then wretched ones (which are broken in my opinion) deal 6d6+6 str4 autohits, dealing 8,5 wounds on average. They dont care if they lose the round.

    Round 2

    3 fiends (7 wounds) vs 4 wretched ones (11 wounds). Fiends swing first dealing 4,5 wounds. Then wretched ones swing 4d6+4 autohits dealing 5,5 wounds.

    Round 3

    1 fiend (2 wounds) vs 2 wretched ones (6 wounds). Fiend swings, dealing 1,5 wounds, 2 wretched ones swing back, dealing 2,5 wounds to the fiend.

    Round 4

    Fiend deals 1,5 wounds again, dies in return.

    As I have predicted a close fight, even against its intended foe. Take in account that they have the best maniphestation possible (unhighing jaw) and even then they are grinded down in the end.
    5 fiends do 11 hp at first round, not 7.5
    I think his calculations are OK, becouse of the 5+ fortitude.15 attacks, 13'5 impacts, 11 wound, 7'5 after saves
    Except 2 Wretched Ones are dead and they give back 4d6+4 attacks. 18 autohits, 9 wounds, 6 after saves.

    My bad, I forgotten Irredeamable die at Ini 0.
  • 5 clawed fiends unhighing jaw 550 pts vs 5 naked feldraks 545 pts

    Round 1

    5 Fiends charge and swing, dealing 6 wounds, 4 feldraks (18 wounds) swing back dealing 2.5 wounds.

    Round 2

    5 Fiends (13 hp) deal 6 wounds again, 3 feldraks (12 hp) deal 2 wounds.

    Round 3

    4 Fiends (11 hp) deal 5 wounds, 2 feldrak (7 wounds) deal 1.5 wounds.

    Round 4

    4 fiends 10 hp deal 5 wounds, 1 feldrak deals 0.75 wounds

    Round 5

    Firnds finish the job with 9-10 hp remaining.

    In this specific case fiends are worth their points. Nevertheless, the best maniphestation for the matchup was selected, and naked feldraks arent the best choice to be fair.
    scissors: "OMG ROCK IS SUPER OVERPOWERED! NERF IT!!" "what about paper?" "paper is fine"

    Photos of models/armies from ETC 2017:

    Cool models seen at ETC 2017

    The post was edited 1 time, last by skrak ().

  • AlexCat wrote:

    skrak wrote:

    The one and only reason of bringing fiends I see is weak internal balance. (They dont duck that much comparing them to flies, serpents, hoarders, brazen beasts, blazing glories, greater daemons, etc)
    I guess, you do not consider DL externally as stronger than the middle?
    I consider previous DL 2.2 to be a little above the average, externally a little stronger than the rest. 2.3 DL are yet to be seen in the new meta. But for what concerns to clawed fiends I think they are a bit weak internally and externally.
    scissors: "OMG ROCK IS SUPER OVERPOWERED! NERF IT!!" "what about paper?" "paper is fine"

    Photos of models/armies from ETC 2017:

    Cool models seen at ETC 2017
  • skrak wrote:

    AlexCat wrote:

    skrak wrote:

    The one and only reason of bringing fiends I see is weak internal balance. (They dont duck that much comparing them to flies, serpents, hoarders, brazen beasts, blazing glories, greater daemons, etc)
    I guess, you do not consider DL externally as stronger than the middle?
    I consider previous DL 2.2 to be a little above the average, externally a little stronger than the rest. 2.3 DL are yet to be seen in the new meta. But for what concerns to clawed fiends I think they are a bit weak internally and externally.
    I mean DL as the whole army, or the competitive picks being good. Magic spam, omen + deceiver and so on. But definetly not clawed fiends.
    scissors: "OMG ROCK IS SUPER OVERPOWERED! NERF IT!!" "what about paper?" "paper is fine"

    Photos of models/armies from ETC 2017:

    Cool models seen at ETC 2017
  • AlexCat wrote:

    skrak wrote:

    But for what concerns to clawed fiends I think they are a bit weak internally and external
    Ah, I see. So, what do you consider good choices in DL 2.2?
    Pretty much my team list:

    omen, deceiver, succubi, brazen beasts, hellhounds
    scissors: "OMG ROCK IS SUPER OVERPOWERED! NERF IT!!" "what about paper?" "paper is fine"

    Photos of models/armies from ETC 2017:

    Cool models seen at ETC 2017
  • WarX wrote:

    Why you assume guys with 9"/18" move will charge opponent on front?

    They overmanouvre every intended target!
    Easier said than done. I have been playing fiends since 2.0 as I like trolling arround with my full scout list. (3 crippling tides tournaments so far). I initially thought in sneaking outside los and charging in the flank. But the lack of light troops makes that difficult to achieve, even with scout+ starting 1st.
    scissors: "OMG ROCK IS SUPER OVERPOWERED! NERF IT!!" "what about paper?" "paper is fine"

    Photos of models/armies from ETC 2017:

    Cool models seen at ETC 2017
  • The only disappointing fact about fiends imho is the fact that they can suck against infantry units, being ''overspecialized''. It's sad having a 700pt unit that can't take on cheaper infantry units, and it's not as if they can auto kill their intended targets.
    The design is completely fine though. The cost is an issue, and if it truly is then we shall see it change, regardless of our comments here. If not, then maybe i am just wrong, or maybe the book is strong enough overall that it can justify some of its units being overpriced.
    To be honest, if i keep comparing entries of our book with others with similar role (imps - clan marksmen, eidolons - grenadiers, myrmidons - orcs) i will reach the conclusion that everything should be cheaper, which is just wrong.

    If we take into account the power level of the book (which includes fearless, supernal, magic buffs, unit synergies) then perhaps the prices are almost correct.
  • skrak wrote:

    skrak wrote:

    AlexCat wrote:

    skrak wrote:

    The one and only reason of bringing fiends I see is weak internal balance. (They dont duck that much comparing them to flies, serpents, hoarders, brazen beasts, blazing glories, greater daemons, etc)
    I guess, you do not consider DL externally as stronger than the middle?
    I consider previous DL 2.2 to be a little above the average, externally a little stronger than the rest. 2.3 DL are yet to be seen in the new meta. But for what concerns to clawed fiends I think they are a bit weak internally and externally.
    I mean DL as the whole army, or the competitive picks being good. Magic spam, omen + deceiver and so on. But definetly not clawed fiends.
    that strong magic is part of what make DL succesful, getting 2 auguments of on Fiends turns them inte shredders for example. We can not only compare units in vacuum but has to factor in how the armies play overall as well. One strenght in the DL army is that characters boost units either through Manifestations, Dominions or through Magic. Ofc other armies has similar abilities but i think only EoS has on pair with DL as a total package, but then agian their troops is quite mediocre as well compared to for example SE or WDG.

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  • New

    So I don't think the issue was/is that Fiends are bad. It's just that they were previously priced at what I would consider the tipping point of viability.

    My lists have stopped including them. I think there is more points efficiency (depending on list archetype) in other choices in the book.
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  • New

    Jal wrote:

    So I don't think the issue was/is that Fiends are bad. It's just that they were previously priced at what I would consider the tipping point of viability.

    My lists have stopped including them. I think there is more points efficiency (depending on list archetype) in other choices in the book.
    I feel they were much better when Lust GD provided additional speed.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project
  • New

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    About comparison of fiends vs wretched ones. There are reason why wretched right now cost only 90p.
    I am interested in knowing the reason behind it. DL really struggle vs wretched ones, there is no troop which can get rid of those (point-efficiently) in the whole book.
    scissors: "OMG ROCK IS SUPER OVERPOWERED! NERF IT!!" "what about paper?" "paper is fine"

    Photos of models/armies from ETC 2017:

    Cool models seen at ETC 2017