Pinned Patch 2.2 Feedback

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  • Lich King wrote:

    Guys, could you please calm down a bit? I know, seeing that your army gets one nerf after another, is some kind of frustrating. But it also represents our pre-patch tier. Anyways, let's make the best out of it. I've just been playing around with a post-patch von Karnstein list. It became cheaper by about 80 points which is nice ( means more great bats :) ). Been playing this list before the patch already quite successfully. It's consisting of 14 Barrow Knights with a von Karnstein Vampire Count in them and a second Vampire Count with a big skeletons block. Two smaller Ghoul units on the flanks and some additional stuff for securing objectives (or making trouble when your enemy tries to take them) like an Altar of Undeath. 0 points in Swift Death, 0 points in The Suffering...and believe it or not...it works. Try it yourselves!

    It doesn't make any sense to charge RT or whoever angrily, because your most frequently used units went up in points (again)...remember: that's how balancing works. Search for new combos and at some point they will get nerfed, if they become overused while others drop in points which have been underused because of the nerfs before.

    Furthermore I need to say that I'm VERY disappointed of reactions of players like @eggsPR. You, as an ETC player, should serve the community as some kind of a role model. They should look up to you and ask for your advice regarding the newest changes, just other ETC players do for their communities. Instead you come in here, setting the community on fire, denouncing the RT for the decision that have been made, without any knowledge of the whole balancing process as it seems to me. Just in case you're up for some sober information instead:

    1. The first round of the patch was data driven. Tournament Analysis Team ( @Just_Flo might be your best contact person here) has set up a balancing algorithm counting which units where overused/underused and adjusting the point costs on these units. Then the RT went through these changes, giving extra attention to the things that they were told to have a look at by the community (gathered through us ACS) or some External Experts.
    2. In the second round of the patch we ACS (gathering the communitys feedback again) and the External Experts have been asked for issues again and made further adjustments.


    By the way, these External Experts are no army specific experts and are coordinated independently. They all possess at least the same skill level as you do in playing T9A. And none of them hates VC, neither does the RT. ;)

    We all know, VC have been very strong before the patch, and I ask you to give us some months to see how much we suffered by this last patch. Then we can get back to the table to discuss what changes are neccessary for us before the next balance patch hits.
    is this post actually serious or is this sarcasm?

    I don’t want to offend anyone by replying seriously if this was meant to be funny
  • Lich King wrote:

    MalachitTheDark wrote:

    It seems like we have to play skellys and zombies for the whole year and then in next patch our Swift Death units will get price drop as underused units. Like that?
    You know yourself, that this post was just dumb, don't you? Mate! All the lists currently played are still playable. There have been no big changes, unless I missed something...then please be so kind and point me to it. Otherwise the only thing that ain't playable anymore is the double Shrieking Horror + Zombie Dragon build. It was not intended to give us VC such Flying Circus / Monster Mash Playstyle. It's been a failure that came up due to the balancing algorithm. And as most other have pointed out already, it hasn't been very strong either.
    After the first patch good characters set of BK, Master Necro with stuff + Vampire Master on horse became impossible. Also Chris build of 2 vampires (which was I think the best for on foot vamps) became impossible. Yes, we can throw away necro staff, but playing with 2 healing spells is really become difficult, especially when healing is pointed out as our strong side for which we have to pay. So we can make necro adept and take another one. But guess what, after the second nerf it also does not fit on 5 points.
    Sometimes even small changes ruins a lot
  • MalachitTheDark wrote:

    Lich King wrote:

    MalachitTheDark wrote:

    It seems like we have to play skellys and zombies for the whole year and then in next patch our Swift Death units will get price drop as underused units. Like that?
    You know yourself, that this post was just dumb, don't you? Mate! All the lists currently played are still playable. There have been no big changes, unless I missed something...then please be so kind and point me to it. Otherwise the only thing that ain't playable anymore is the double Shrieking Horror + Zombie Dragon build. It was not intended to give us VC such Flying Circus / Monster Mash Playstyle. It's been a failure that came up due to the balancing algorithm. And as most other have pointed out already, it hasn't been very strong either.
    After the first patch good characters set of BK, Master Necro with stuff + Vampire Master on horse became impossible. Also Chris build of 2 vampires (which was I think the best for on foot vamps) became impossible. Yes, we can throw away necro staff, but playing with 2 healing spells is really become difficult, especially when healing is pointed out as our strong side for which we have to pay. So we can make necro adept and take another one. But guess what, after the second nerf it also does not fit on 5 points.Sometimes even small changes ruins a lot
    Even if that was the case, (well, it's not in my opinion, but might be very subjective) these are no 2.2 patch changes, are they? I don't understand that people NOW start complaining about the builds they've lost in patch 2.1. We (the ACS) have asked you for your opinion and we've forwarded it to the RT. As far as i can recall it hasn't been that negative as it is now.

    Full Layout Coordinator

    Translation Team DE

    VC Community Support

    Supporter of Veil of the Ages

  • eggsPR wrote:

    Lich King, I do know the process, hence my reaction which I think is reasonable.

    How many times have I complained like this in prior patches? None, bc I accept that balance is necessary.

    Having said that, this was not balance. What happened to VC was IMO a result of non-data-driven malice and I, as a supposed champion of the VC community have a responsibility to call it out.

    Meanwhile enjoy your skeletons and black knights without suffering and swift death - I’m confident it will soon be the VC net list now that it has been revealed. Just remember, if you win too much with it, you’ll be targeted........
    Im doing Well with that stuff too, and you’re a better player than us.

    Is the lowly Wesser really going to be doing better with Barrow Knights than you? Will ur not prove your superiority to us?
  • Wesser wrote:

    eggsPR wrote:

    Lich King, I do know the process, hence my reaction which I think is reasonable.

    How many times have I complained like this in prior patches? None, bc I accept that balance is necessary.

    Having said that, this was not balance. What happened to VC was IMO a result of non-data-driven malice and I, as a supposed champion of the VC community have a responsibility to call it out.

    Meanwhile enjoy your skeletons and black knights without suffering and swift death - I’m confident it will soon be the VC net list now that it has been revealed. Just remember, if you win too much with it, you’ll be targeted........
    Im doing Well with that stuff too, and you’re a better player than us.
    Is the lowly Wesser really going to be doing better with Barrow Knights than you? Will ur not prove your superiority to us?
    Yes Wesser, you can go to ETC and prove the greatness of VonK, Skellys and Barrow Knights. Oh, and Altars off course ;)))
  • eggsPR wrote:

    Lich King, I do know the process, hence my reaction which I think is reasonable.

    How many times have I complained like this in prior patches? None, bc I accept that balance is necessary.

    Having said that, this was not balance. What happened to VC was IMO a result of non-data-driven malice and I, as a supposed champion of the VC community have a responsibility to call it out.

    Meanwhile enjoy your skeletons and black knights without suffering and swift death - I’m confident it will soon be the VC net list now that it has been revealed. Just remember, if you win too much with it, you’ll be targeted........
    You may make fun of me and my builds. Though they work for me. I won't claim myself a VC champion at all. But I can tell you, that there are working builds after the patch and they're competitive. That's all I wanted to say...you know: something positive in this aura of despair you're spreading! ;)

    There is no 'IMO' is this context. The balance patch was made like I wrote above. It was data-driven. Do you want to call us all liars? I see no stable reason to do so.

    Full Layout Coordinator

    Translation Team DE

    VC Community Support

    Supporter of Veil of the Ages

  • I don't think that VC players are bored when the army are nerf two times.
    I just think that they are bored when they see that units like cadaver wagon, altar, winged reapers, and some bloodline like VK nosferatu don't change.

    When I talk to VC players in tournament, they all say that build a VC list is boring.
    I m sad to say that but internal balance is better in 8th edition...

    I don't talk about zombies taking 10 pts I the 2 patchs... Yes we use zombie in all lists. Because zombie is the core of all undead in all the game and movies
    Sorry for my bad English
  • MalachitTheDark wrote:

    Yes Wesser, you can go to ETC and prove the greatness of VonK, Skellys and Barrow Knights. Oh, and Altars off course ;)))
    Dude, we can try to discuss on a reasonable base or we can start making fun of each other. If you want to go for the second I'd recommend you to use the Meme Thread.

    Full Layout Coordinator

    Translation Team DE

    VC Community Support

    Supporter of Veil of the Ages

  • Elpeji wrote:

    I don't think that VC players are bored when the army are nerf two times.
    I just think that they are bored when they see that units like cadaver wagon, altar, winged reapers, and some bloodline like VK nosferatu don't change.

    When I talk to VC players in tournament, they all say that build a VC list is boring.
    I m sad to say that but internal balance is better in 8th edition...

    I don't talk about zombies taking 10 pts I the 2 patchs... Yes we use zombie in all lists. Because zombie is the core of all undead in all the game and movies
    Exactly. The 2.0 patch killed our list building for bloodlines and this is yet another nail in the coffin. (Vampire pun intended)
  • eggsPR wrote:

    I’ve won tournies with units whereby what many seemed to have thought they’d have been selected at random. I don’t need to prove anything, except that there is a force behind VC nerfs, and it ain’t data driven.....
    C'mon! You can't be serious here, mate. Join the TA team and @Just_Flo will maybe provide you the insights you need to prove me wrong. :)

    Full Layout Coordinator

    Translation Team DE

    VC Community Support

    Supporter of Veil of the Ages

  • eggsPR wrote:

    And I am one of the experts for feedback (whereby 0% of my feedback was enacted, but that’s par for the course which explains why response rate amongst experts is so dismal)

    Do you think your feedback is army specific? Do you think you're very objective? Well, something I can tell you is: no one is absolutely objective when it comes to balancing his own army! That's exactly why RT chose to go for data-driven balance patches. That's exactly why your feedback was worth the same as the feedback of the rest of our community. You might have deeper insights than most of us (including myself here) do, due to your skill level and your experience in competitive tourneys. Though you shouldn't expect that your feedback wasn't filtered too.

    Full Layout Coordinator

    Translation Team DE

    VC Community Support

    Supporter of Veil of the Ages

  • @eggsPR last time we both talked about data you fed me a lot of Emotions.

    I get that you are angry and feel cleared and fear that there is a secret agenda against VC.

    I will tell you a secret, I have a VC army, too. Okay I have most of the armies.

    I belive you would have prefered redesigns of the units which got price drops.
    Well that is not in RTs hands. Redesigns for not gamewrapping good things were blocked with the freeze. (RT has no Controll over that).

    So pointcosts and dublication Limits are what RT can work with.

    Regarding the data driven part of the update TA and RT consider performance over whole Tourneys and usage in lists as data. Next year we will likely be able to link concrete unit choices to performance.

    Feel free to ask questions if you have problems understanding things regarding the data driven part of the update.

    Remember when writing highly emotional you undermine your message. Aggression and Volume weakens ones position.

    If your selfdescription as EE is correct, than you had 2 ways to Influence the last patch.
    A) through the ACS Feedback and through your EE feedback.

    My guess would be less Aggression next year could help your wants to become true.
  • Mike newman wrote:

    Lich King wrote:

    Guys, could you please calm down a bit? I know, seeing that your army gets one nerf after another, is some kind of frustrating. But it also represents our pre-patch tier. Anyways, let's make the best out of it. I've just been playing around with a post-patch von Karnstein list. It became cheaper by about 80 points which is nice ( means more great bats :) ). Been playing this list before the patch already quite successfully. It's consisting of 14 Barrow Knights with a von Karnstein Vampire Count in them and a second Vampire Count with a big skeletons block. Two smaller Ghoul units on the flanks and some additional stuff for securing objectives (or making trouble when your enemy tries to take them) like an Altar of Undeath. 0 points in Swift Death, 0 points in The Suffering...and believe it or not...it works. Try it yourselves!

    It doesn't make any sense to charge RT or whoever angrily, because your most frequently used units went up in points (again)...remember: that's how balancing works. Search for new combos and at some point they will get nerfed, if they become overused while others drop in points which have been underused because of the nerfs before.

    Furthermore I need to say that I'm VERY disappointed of reactions of players like @eggsPR. You, as an ETC player, should serve the community as some kind of a role model. They should look up to you and ask for your advice regarding the newest changes, just other ETC players do for their communities. Instead you come in here, setting the community on fire, denouncing the RT for the decision that have been made, without any knowledge of the whole balancing process as it seems to me. Just in case you're up for some sober information instead:

    1. The first round of the patch was data driven. Tournament Analysis Team ( @Just_Flo might be your best contact person here) has set up a balancing algorithm counting which units where overused/underused and adjusting the point costs on these units. Then the RT went through these changes, giving extra attention to the things that they were told to have a look at by the community (gathered through us ACS) or some External Experts.
    2. In the second round of the patch we ACS (gathering the communitys feedback again) and the External Experts have been asked for issues again and made further adjustments.


    By the way, these External Experts are no army specific experts and are coordinated independently. They all possess at least the same skill level as you do in playing T9A. And none of them hates VC, neither does the RT. ;)

    We all know, VC have been very strong before the patch, and I ask you to give us some months to see how much we suffered by this last patch. Then we can get back to the table to discuss what changes are neccessary for us before the next balance patch hits.
    is this post actually serious or is this sarcasm?
    I don’t want to offend anyone by replying seriously if this was meant to be funny?



    Ok, as it shockingly appears to be serious. I will reply;

    1) The units put in a separate category are done so because they are deemed the Most powerful in the book. Your list has none. Sure you are getting good results you say. I’m sure I could take an army of zombies and still beat some people. Results have to be relative

    2) you saved 10pts on each vampire and 45points on the 14 black knights. And most people on here still wouldn’t take either and have been actively complaining about. And more importantly compare that to the things other armies are taking and still came down in points anyway.

    3) Surely you can see that if you weren’t taking other units before then them going up in points (such as the black coach going up 30 each 2 patch’s) is not helping

    4) great bats have not been 80pts for a long time. They have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed. You need to find another 15points. This is why VC players are getting annoyed

    5) an altar can not secure and objective. It is not scoring

    6) overused units being nerfed is a hollow arguement when zombies are going up in points and Cuatls are coming down. When VK nights are going down in points, and then going straight back up (the 3 point drop on a 550 unit did not suddenly make them so overused they had to go back up 5 points)

    7) so you are telling me the RT looked and went “yep zombies defo need extra 5points” i am not that naive.

    8) the VC ACS has already come on this thread and said his feedback was ignored as submitted late.

    9) myself and @eggsPR are well aware of the EE team. We are one it thanks. As is furion. There that’s 3 Experts in this thread telling you the VC update is a mess

    10) “Vc were very strong” at last three ETC VC has averaged 60, 62, and last year 55 (6 games) so. Average, average and in 2019 the worst place the book has been in for 3 years.

    As for the personal comments directed at Chris’s behaviour.


    You have got it completely the wrong way round. You be a good role model by standing up for what you think is right in life, your beliefs, not by meekly going along with what you are told must be how you behave and what you must accept.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Mike newman ().

  • Lich King wrote:

    Furthermore I need to say that I'm VERY disappointed of reactions of players like @eggsPR. You, as an ETC player, should serve the community as some kind of a role model. They should look up to you and ask for your advice regarding the newest changes, just other ETC players do for their communities
    You don't get to do that. YOU do not get the luxury of shaming other players for having an OPINION on an army they love and KNOW that there are issues with. VC has been getting kicked in the ribs for months now and a lot of us are fed up with it. It should be a POINT OF ORDER where even EggsPR has lost patience.
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.

    Chaotic Neutral
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