Announcement EOS 2. 2 update- Feedback thread

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  • DarkSky wrote:

    What worries me is that many EoS changes from 2.1 were just reverted. This creates the impression (for me), that the team doesn't really know what it is doing (could also look at it: "Yay, the team listens to community feedback", but I can't make myself to see it that way, sorry)
    Well i dont see any issue here, we was aware that 2.1 was a beta, and that the team try to use an algorithm to make point change. That of course need then a human check and feddback. That the interest of the 2.2, Team listen feedback, with intelligence in my point of view.

    Now we can ask do the step 2.1 was really necessary ? As any experimented EoS player as myself could have seen the main issue in 5 min. Take 3 of them, and you sure, you dont miss any issue the algorithm could have create. I agree its a bit weird to have loose some time (export file,s upload them etc..), by releasing the 2.1 without make the army experrt human check first.. But well why not.. its not a big deal, and a community feedback, is more community friendly than a small expert team.

    @DanT
    Come on ! Move on ^^; we know you point of view, since you join and then left the team, you just drooling like an old granny each time people react. Yeah community is sometimes impulsive, exagerate, or too implicate, allright !
    Now lots of intelligent move of the team are welcome by the large majority. Sometimes, there is some decision more controvertial, that split community and create debate, then time calm down if the debate wasent really necessary, or team mistake is corrected... that the heart and the interest of all open source project on web. Lets not complain about it ;)

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    The post was edited 2 times, last by Casp ().

  • DarkSky wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    Phosphorus wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    The one thing I'm sure of at this point is that there is no course of action RT can follow that won't result in significant criticism.
    Which mustn`t be bad per se. Depends on the quality of the criticism.
    Sure, I phrased it badly.I meant unreasonable and unconstructive criticism.As opposed to supportive feedback.
    So you think my feedback was unreasonable and unconstructive?
    Your questioning was sound (to me) , but was probably answered already by @Adaephon_Delat .
    The first one was data driven (not strict, I guess, see the IG with Great weapons issue..RT)...while the second one seems to take into account the answeres /questions/critics by the community.
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • DarkSky wrote:

    So you think my feedback was unreasonable and unconstructive?
    I think judging individual comments is unhelpful, and I am not going to judge yours.

    I have made comments before about the totality of comments (combined however you like: by poster, army forum, total community), and I think this is a much more helpful way to look at things.
    Individually kinda reasonable posts can be part of a wider pattern that is problematic as a totality.
    I have said before on these forums that I think the balance of the totality is completely out of whack.

    I paid more attention to the community that almost any decision maker during my time on RT.
    I can tell you for sure that I got yelled at from diametrically opposed views on an almost daily basis. No-one can square that circle.

    I was just pointing out that if I was still RT, I would very much feel like it was "damned if we do, damned if we don't", and I felt your comment was very illustrative of this. This does not mean that your comment is individually problematic or incorrect per se.
    What you do with that point is up to you :)
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

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  • Vide reverting changes - I think it is really, really weird 1 month after previous update. I don't remember ever being a time that even a single price was reverted in such a short period. And now it happened few times in practically every book. Really, the month of whinning on forums was worth more than supposedly prepared previous update? I definitely don't understand that part. I get it that you might want to get back on your decisions if they are wrong, but this is extremelly short period of time and practically no data to flow.
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  • DanT wrote:

    DarkSky wrote:

    What worries me is that many EoS changes from 2.1 were just reverted. This creates the impression (for me), that the team doesn't really know what it is doing (could also look at it: "Yay, the team listens to community feedback", but I can't make myself to see it that way, sorry)
    And if they didn't change, then people would say "The team just doesn't listen to feedback. Maybe their decisions are right, but I can't make myself to see it that way, sorry".

    Maybe this update is bad, maybe it is good. I am making no judgement yet.
    The one thing I'm sure of at this point is that there is no course of action RT can follow that won't result in significant criticism.
    Here's the main issue though:
    If we had just a few notes on the reason the decision was made, we wouldn't have to guess.

    "This price increase proved not to have the desired effect of decreasing MSU spam from this unit so we reverted it"
    - or whatever it may be - is plenty good to know what the patches are trying to accomplish and then we can each make up our mind on whether we think it was a good measure that was taken or not.
    Did I mention my first video game title is coming soon?
  • Randomus wrote:

    Vide reverting changes - I think it is really, really weird 1 month after previous update. I don't remember ever being a time that even a single price was reverted in such a short period. And now it happened few times in practically every book. Really, the month of whinning on forums was worth more than supposedly prepared previous update? I definitely don't understand that part. I get it that you might want to get back on your decisions if they are wrong, but this is extremelly short period of time and practically no data to flow.
    I think this Update followed a different approach. The first batch was mainly data driven. After Feedback from the community and some top notch players the team saw, that some data driven adjustments were not necessary. I see it positive that the team is able to express that some adjustments were not good and so reversed it or solved some issues on other ways.
  • Hombre de Mundo wrote:

    Here's the main issue though:If we had just a few notes on the reason the decision was made, we wouldn't have to guess.

    "This price increase proved not to have the desired effect of decreasing MSU spam from this unit so we reverted it"
    - or whatever it may be - is plenty good to know what the patches are trying to accomplish and then we can each make up our mind on whether we think it was a good measure that was taken or not.
    It's not as trivial or as un-timeconsuming as you think to provide this reasoning for the changes.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
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  • Hooray for Imperial Seal and Blacksteel reverts! That is significant for a lot of character interactions and builds. There are some intriguing impacts to potential Inquisitor builds from this. Both for good and bad as locket went up too... may have to revisit some of the builds that I've posted elsewhere...

    Knight Commander is cheaper across the board. Significantly so considering Titanic Might dropped a lot too.

    Heavy Infantry additional price going down is a big deal. It will encourage running more large parent units in core as it is very possible to keep two large parent units AND some support units within the core tax now because you can shave 80-100pts. Lots of build possibilities in such a little change.

    Electoral Cavalry changes give me mixed emotions. The 5pt base increase is a big deal for the great weapon chaff units and actually ruins many of my favorite 1125pt core configurations. But the shield decrease opens up a lot of possibilities, after cranking a lot of points ratios for Electoral cavalry I think this will have some subtle impacts!

    The damage potential of GW Imperial Guard spikes quite high compared to sword and board. Especially with hatred, battle focus, lightning reflexes and spell support. I felt 3pts were fine, but 4pts seems a bit much. The truth is that it is probably ~3.5pts from a weighted average perspective externally. Not to mention that Foresight Engine with an apprentice on it is now only 30pts more expensive than a normal arcane engine! That means that a divination apprentice foresight engine with Know they enemy can threaten giving GW IG Agility 5! Add in Mantle of Ullor and IG hit almost all other really heavy hitting units in the game first. Even just agility 3 is good for hitting other GW and slower units first. I think the damage ceiling from an external average perspective needs to be explored more before passing too harsh a judgement on this increase.

    I honestly think repeaters and braces were really close on Reiters. I wonder if this will hedge out repeaters too much? At this point braces+champion+repeater pistol is an intriguing balance for number of shots, mobility and cost.

    LOL Steam Tank got cheaper! I will gladly take it and listen to my opponents whine more about it.
  • Nerocrossius wrote:

    Hooray for Imperial Seal and Blacksteel reverts! That is significant for a lot of character interactions and builds. There are some intriguing impacts to potential Inquisitor builds from this. Both for good and bad as locket went up too... may have to revisit some of the builds that I've posted elsewhere...

    Knight Commander is cheaper across the board. Significantly so considering Titanic Might dropped a lot too.

    Heavy Infantry additional price going down is a big deal. It will encourage running more large parent units in core as it is very possible to keep two large parent units AND some support units within the core tax now because you can shave 80-100pts. Lots of build possibilities in such a little change.

    Electoral Cavalry changes give me mixed emotions. The 5pt base increase is a big deal for the great weapon chaff units and actually ruins many of my favorite 1125pt core configurations. But the shield decrease opens up a lot of possibilities, after cranking a lot of points ratios for Electoral cavalry I think this will have some subtle impacts!

    The damage potential of GW Imperial Guard spikes quite high compared to sword and board. Especially with hatred, battle focus, lightning reflexes and spell support. I felt 3pts were fine, but 4pts seems a bit much. The truth is that it is probably ~3.5pts from a weighted average perspective externally. Not to mention that Foresight Engine with an apprentice on it is now only 30pts more expensive than a normal arcane engine! That means that a divination apprentice foresight engine with Know they enemy can threaten giving GW IG Agility 5! Add in Mantle of Ullor and IG hit almost all other really heavy hitting units in the game first. Even just agility 3 is good for hitting other GW and slower units first. I think the damage ceiling from an external average perspective needs to be explored more before passing too harsh a judgement on this increase.


    These are the reasons for the point increase


    I honestly think repeaters and braces were really close on Reiters. I wonder if this will hedge out repeaters too much? At this point braces+champion+repeater pistol is an intriguing balance for number of shots, mobility and cost.

    This adjustment Was not data driven. Especially big units are considered to have a very high damage Potential, even more with magical buffs



    LOL Steam Tank got cheaper! I will gladly take it and listen to my opponents whine more about it.


    The increase in the first place was data driven. Rt listened to our words that St Will always be taken even with a higher price because it is a unique piece in our army and besides we were only t4
  • Adaephon_Delat wrote:

    Nerocrossius wrote:

    The damage potential of GW Imperial Guard spikes quite high compared to sword and board. Especially with hatred, battle focus, lightning reflexes and spell support. I felt 3pts were fine, but 4pts seems a bit much. The truth is that it is probably ~3.5pts from a weighted average perspective externally. Not to mention that Foresight Engine with an apprentice on it is now only 30pts more expensive than a normal arcane engine! That means that a divination apprentice foresight engine with Know they enemy can threaten giving GW IG Agility 5! Add in Mantle of Ullor and IG hit almost all other really heavy hitting units in the game first. Even just agility 3 is good for hitting other GW and slower units first. I think the damage ceiling from an external average perspective needs to be explored more before passing too harsh a judgement on this increase.
    These are the reasons for the point increase.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to communicate any dissatisfaction or disagreement. If anything my hope was to defend the Great Weapon point increase. It makes sense that it's a balance decision made despite available data as I think the great weapons are quite strong with the right buffs, but tend to be under utilized! They are certainly the best damage EoS can produce!

    Adaephon_Delat wrote:

    Nerocrossius wrote:

    I honestly think repeaters and braces were really close on Reiters. I wonder if this will hedge out repeaters too much? At this point braces+champion+repeater pistol is an intriguing balance for number of shots, mobility and cost.
    This adjustment Was not data driven. Especially big units are considered to have a very high damage Potential, even more with magical buffs.
    I understand the damage potential of repeater guns--stars align does silly things with a unit of ten. I always felt that the mobility of quick to fire over unwieldy was enough to balance it. But I do have to admit when I look around at Reiter lists I see more repeater guns. With that in mind I agree that the point increase was probably a good thing. I was more interested that this might actually push people to use the champion upgrade as this levels the competition out more. I've really liked it on brace of pistols as 22 shots with quick to fire has been really good for me. I think in the past repeaters were just a better option competitively simply because of more shots, but now there might be some competition which is a good thing. I didn't mention this before clearly, but I think all of these changes are solid.

    Adaephon_Delat wrote:

    Nerocrossius wrote:

    LOL Steam Tank got cheaper! I will gladly take it and listen to my opponents whine more about it.
    The increase in the first place was data driven. Rt listened to our words that St Will always be taken even with a higher price because it is a unique piece in our army and besides we were only t4
    It makes sense that the community wanted it back to 475pts. It's too valuable of a component to the army. It could be priced at 600pts and I know that I'd still take it simply because of how badly it is needed to help the army. Increasing it's cost just leads to shrinking available army options. I laugh at the change simply because I was fully expecting it to go to 500pts this update because it is a strong model and I was preparing for the worst. This point decrease seems small, but I particularly appreciate it as I can now squeeze more flagellants into my army! The Sunna's Fury cap gets very tight when you want to run tank and two full units of flagellants :P
  • Adaephon_Delat wrote:

    Nerocrossius wrote:

    I honestly think repeaters and braces were really close on Reiters. I wonder if this will hedge out repeaters too much? At this point braces+champion+repeater pistol is an intriguing balance for number of shots, mobility and cost.

    This adjustment Was not data driven. Especially big units are considered to have a very high damage Potential, even more with magical buffs



    This is really weird... The damage of repeater reiter guns, is lower than the damage than can deal Light infantry with accurate. LI can benefit same spell, get accurate, get lot more HP, can be steadfast easily...

    Really i dont see the point for me reiter with repeater gun should on contrary get a cost reduction for internal balance, ( as long LI stay as it is..)
    Brace of pistol are playable because they bring somehting on battlefield , mobility. Repeater gun dont bring anything valuable.

    They arent mobil at all. Yes they can move to get a good target at low range, but it means they dont shoot one turn, low range is good, but less than accurate. And If you move them away from your line, you can panic easily

    In term of cost
    reiter cost 185pts for 15 shoot 5 hp
    Li cost 200pts for 15 shoot 15hp

    15pts of difference seems not a lot for all unconvenient reiter get in comparaison to LI.

    I never play reiter with repeater since LI get accurate order. So dont impact any of my list, but it seems to me a move in a wrong direction. I guess to see 0 competitive list with repeater.If any player here was using repeater gun, or think to still use it with this cost increase, i am really curious to get an explanation about his choice.

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    The post was edited 3 times, last by Casp ().

  • Hombre de Mundo wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    It's not as trivial or as un-timeconsuming as you think to provide this reasoning for the changes.
    To the point where it would not be worth doing?
    I think everyone thinks it is worth doing.
    That isn't the same as having resources available or it not competing against other things that are *worth doing*.

    I'm not saying that no reasoning will be released; I am not privy to such discussions any more.
    Just that it isn't as trivial to provide it as people think.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

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  • Casp wrote:

    This is really weird... The damage of repeater reiter guns, is lower than the damage than can deal Light infantry with accurate. LI can benefit same spell, get accurate, get lot more HP, can be steadfast easily...

    Really i dont see the point for me reiter with repeater gun should on contrary get a cost reduction for internal balance, ( as long LI stay as it is..)
    Brace of pistol are playable because they bring somehting on battlefield , mobility. Repeater gun dont bring anything valuable.

    They arent mobil at all. Yes they can move to get a good target at low range, but it means they dont shoot one turn, low range is good, but less than accurate. And If you move them away from your line, you can panic easily

    In term of cost
    reiter cost 185pts for 15 shoot 5 hp
    Li cost 200pts for 15 shoot 15hp

    15pts of difference seems not a lot for all unconvenient reiter get in comparaison to LI.

    I never play reiter with repeater since LI get accurate order. So dont impact any of my list, but it seems to me a move in a wrong direction. I guess to see 0 competitive list with repeater.If any player here was using repeater gun, or think to still use it with this cost increase, i am really curious to get an explanation about his choice.
    ??? 10 Repeater gun Reiters shooting at long range average the exact same number of wounds as a full unit of 20 Light Infantry with accurate hand guns (5 wounds versus a base of Res 4 for those that want to know). The difference is that they then vanguard to an advantageous situation AND shoot out to 24" without unwieldy penalty and then proceed to function like a makeshift volley gun. Because they have 3 shots per model they have much higher damage potential than a single unit of Light Infantry. And just because they have unwieldy doesn't mean they can't move and try to shoot in future turns.

    As a smallest unit they produce 15 shots for much cheaper price than 15 light infantry and again can vanguard to a ruins or something and then starting on turn one begin shooting things within 24".

    The EoS gunline competitive lists typically run two units of repeater reiters simply to get 30 more shots a round and vanguarding mobility and I've seen other lists here and there run them as well.

    This is not to say that I think repeater reiters are superior to brace of pistols, as I too greatly prefer the enduring mobility, but I can see why repeater guns are getting a price bump. I think 2 point increase per model seems a bit much, maybe 1pt per model would've been right. But I don't have the numbers and statistical weights that the powers to be have.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Nerocrossius ().