Announcement EOS 2. 2 update- Feedback thread

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  • Nerocrossius wrote:

    ??? 10 Repeater gun Reiters shooting at long range average the exact same number of wounds as a full unit of 20 Light Infantry with accurate hand guns (5 wounds versus a base of Res 4 for those that want to know). The difference is that they then vanguard to an advantageous situation AND shoot out to 24" without unwieldy penalty and then proceed to function like a makeshift volley gun. Because they have 3 shots per model they have much higher damage potential than a single unit of Light Infantry. And just because they have unwieldy doesn't mean they can't move and try to shoot in future turns.
    10 reiter with repeater gun its 335pts
    20 LI its 265pts .

    We could compare
    2*10 reiter 670pts for 60 shoot. 20hp
    2*20Li + 1*10 LI 665pts for 50 shoot. 50hp

    LI will hit always at 4+ but maybe not able to shoot turn one, depend of the oppponent.
    Reiter could shoot turn one but on 5+ if you start, and if the opponent start you could potentially fleeing before shoot.
    With the first panic test with only 3 wound.
    The 10 shoot difference, is reduce to 0 after only 4 wound (so only one magic missile)
    Against lots of opponent, you can not reach short range from all the game without expose yourself to close combat threat.
    If you move you loose one turn of shoot hitting on 7+ in general or 6+ if you come to low range. They cant help you to temporize, as they will never be steadfast..

    For me as long LI have access to accurate, there is no comparaison possible. yes LI are more complex to deploy well but with training it become easy. The only exception i see, would be a list where you cant paid for accurate order because you want play steam tank, Knight comander and else.

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    The post was edited 1 time, last by Casp ().

  • It leads to nothing to compare these two units. Except the shooting part they fulfill very different roles. And li only hits always on 4+ if you give them an order and do not move them. And Do not forget the AP 2 on the repeaters. With magical support 10 of them are indeed a very mobile volleygun that can wreck havoc
  • I got in to this in a long set of posts about the strength of large militia units, but I will share my thoughts again.
    the-ninth-age.com/community/in…read/50987-state-militia/

    10 man units of Reiters put out a lot of firepower. They come with 30 shots that can start hitting the enemy if we go first on turn one thanks to vanguard. They also make an excellent target for our boosting magic. Altered sight (cosmos #1 spell), Stars Align (Div. #4), Flaming Swords (Pyro#3) or Glory of gold (Alch. #3) all make 30 shots that much more terrifying to the enemy. In a 10 man unit, the comparable for the Reiters is not Light infantry, but a Volley Gun.

    The math comparisons of Light infantry to Reiters for shooting miss a lot of the differences in the use of the units. Sure 20 LI, supported with accuracy hit more often in that first round of shooting at long range point for point. However, Reiters let you drop to go first with confidence that a vanguard move will ensure that they have a target turn 1. Not just because of range, but because of how deployment is arranged. This matters in a lot of scenarios. Remember, most often we get 2 turns of shooting before something is able to reach our shooting line units like LI, or only 1 if the enemy goes first and has fast units. I find I get more total rounds of shooting with large units of reiters because they can re-deploy 16" so easily. On the turn they redeploy they may be hitting on 6's or 7's to be sure. However, unlike LI in so many situations, they are then shooting effectively the following turn or turns. This often means that in a 6 turn game, if I redeploy them twice, I get 4 rounds of shooting with them if they aren't hunted and killed specifically. It isn't all happening turns 1 and 2, but it is happening, and 4 rounds is better than 2.

    I have found that 10 man units do draw a lot of attention from my opponents because of the gross volume of fire they generate. This is both a blessing and a curse. If they are taking the magic and missile attention away from my combat units, then it isn't a bad thing, and if they send war machine hunters after them, even better, as I can now redeploy 16" Also consider putting them in front of your line infantry/cavalry units with room behind to regroup. Remember, that if you flee through your own block, you won't get caught, and that as they have Feigned Flight, you can shoot turn 1, maybe turn 2, Flee through your line when charged, and regroup on the general's Discipline, and now, redeploy 16" behind your own battle line the turn you rally. Good luck doing any of that with light infantry. :)

    For me the real "secret sauce" is the 5 man repeater unit. at 175pts they can vanguard, shoot 15 shots, redeploy easily to flanks to continue shooting as the battle progresses, and are cheap and mobile enough to rush in 16" and chaff that important unit at a critical moment turn 3 or later. I find pistoliers often have to skirt to close to combat to get shooting in early in the game (which is risky) if I want to keep them in reserve for later turns to play the sacrificial chaff role. Repeaters give me both. Turns 1 and 2, long range strength 4 shooting that vanguarded in to better position. A fast unit that can run up and chaff turns 3 and 4 when I need to do so, or continue shooting and redeploying for the whole game.

    Casp, as long as you are thinking of them as mere alternatives to light infantry, they will continue to disappoint, as they are not as points efficient in the specific role that Light Infantry play. But... expand your thinking about them a little and wow, they offer some amazing versatility.

    All these discussions lately, I am wondering if I should be writing a "Gaius Marius" tactica. Does anyone care about the tactical musings of an old fart who has been playing Empire then EoS for 25 years? (even if I am not an ETC guy?) :D - Call them the "Marian Reforms" ?( to the army. Any Roman Republican history buffs will get that reference. 8-)

    Cheers ~ Gaius Marius, Consul 7 times.
  • Casp wrote:

    10 reiter with repeater gun its 335pts20 LI its 265pts .

    We could compare
    2*10 reiter 670pts for 60 shoot. 20hp
    2*20Li + 1*10 LI 665pts for 50 shoot. 50hp
    As mentioned already by others comparison of the two units is moot as both function completely differently on board. The bottom-line is that the option with more dice per unit becomes more powerful with spells which is why Reiter repeaters became more expensive. Stars align for instance will make a unit of 10 Reiters shooting at long range average 8.3 wounds whereas 20 LI infantry with accurate handguns would only get 7.5 wounds with stars align. Altered Sight would make 10 Reiters average 7.5 wounds at long range, whereas 20 LI with accurate handguns only average 6.6 wounds.

    In a vacuum for just shooting, pre-update, the two units were on par points-to-damage assuming Light Infantry had handguns, always benefited from accurate order and that the Reiters were always shooting from long range. If any of those factors changed then the Reiters began to average more damage.

    Even post-update the shooting contrast is as such: Small Reiter units are cheaper than Light Infantry but average less damage, large Reiter units are more expensive than large Light Infantry but have the same average damage with Reiters having greater potential.

    Comparing three units to two units' output is not sound even if they are similarly costed as it becomes increasingly less likely for all those units to maintain static contexts (three accurate orders a turn for instance).
  • I was thinking about changes on essence of free mind, i used to field a wizard master alchemy/cosmology with it before this change. How is it now? i think it isnt worth anymore, what are the other options in your opinion? Master alchemy is too situational (yeah +2 as on IG made me win so many fights, but it is just one spell), on the other hand how can we set our magic phase? i was thinking on master cosmology+ adept alchemy but it is very costly compared to before, i have to do a lot of changes to let theese two in. On the other hand i can try 2 adepts, but... are they worth compared to one master with essence now? what are your thinkings? (before discussion, i dont like to go pyromancy, too many Wdg and dwarfs in my local meta)

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Julian the apostate ().

  • Try 2 adept
    If you play an IG block and some artillery weapon,
    one divination with hairloom, one alchemy. Its just the perfect combo for us.
    really versatile, you can adapt the spell in function of your oppponent easily. And you will always have good spell

    Star align / altered sight / word of iron : are auto include.
    Then you have 2 spell to choose, to adapt to your opponent:
    4 differents blast, Fireball/ quicksilverlash / fate of judgement / molten copper (you can have a paired if you choose fate of judgment)
    And If you want more protetcion for IG you get scrying to combine with Word of iron.

    Add to this your priest in close combat. You will have each turn enough spell. Your opponent dont have any auto dispell , and should make some choice each turn.

    The point cost invest is minimal. And you get a canalisation of 3 if you have 1 priest.
    And if you want more; pay an arcane engine to one adept.

    What else !

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    The post was edited 5 times, last by Casp ().

  • Gaius Marius wrote:

    I got in to this in a long set of posts about the strength of large militia units, but I will share my thoughts again.
    the-ninth-age.com/community/in…read/50987-state-militia/


    All these discussions lately, I am wondering if I should be writing a "Gaius Marius" tactica. Does anyone care about the tactical musings of an old fart who has been playing Empire then EoS for 25 years? (even if I am not an ETC guy?) :D - Call them the "Marian Reforms" ?( to the army. Any Roman Republican history buffs will get that reference. 8-)

    Cheers ~ Gaius Marius, Consul 7 times.
    YES PLEASE!
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, FREE command groups for EoS units. Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. Brace for impact should be changed to, or there should be an extra order: " Have at THEM!" The unit gain battle focus.
    For Sunna and the Emperor!!
  • I tend to a master with alchemy or cosmology and the heirloom.
    If I take alchemy, I can squeeze in that one more combat buff apart from better armour,
    if I take Cosmo, quicksilver lash is the obvious choice(unless the opponent has no armour at all).
    If I had the points left, I would invest in a pyro adept to bolster my arsenal.
    favourite quote:
    Kruber wrote:
    Imperial Rangers burn the woods ---> Sylvan Elves go cry in the corner.

    My armies:
    :EoS: :O&G: :KoE: :OK:
  • Well, I agree with two adepts, divination and an alchemy are very solid choices. Lately I have been running that with a pair of arcane engines. 900 pts worth of wizards feels strange, but i console myself that it is actually 400pts worth of wagon in that 900.
    When I am running just one wizard, I like the Cosmos Master on a wagon. Cosmos master lets you take Unity in divergence and that spell is wonderful at drawing out dice. Nobody wants every model in a unit taking a hit at strength 3.... so it tends to pull out the dispel dice. Then the little buffs all get through.
    the one lore That just doesn’t synergize with how I play EoS is Pyromancy. It only has one unit buff... flaming swords... which is nice, but is not going to help swing a combat like KTE, stars align, or the alchemy buffs. Pyro is great at killing light stuff and chaff, but those are not exactly the type of enemy units we have trouble with. I find pyro a much better fit for my Orcs And Goblins.
  • I like to play two adepts, pyro and cosmo. One with heirloom of possible.
    My favourite spells are Pyro: fireball/cascading/Pyroclastic and sword of fire cosmo altered sight and perception of strength. With the heirloom i try to get quicksilver lash/fireball/know the enemy depending on the opponent.

    Many may argument that pyro is not necesary with EoS. Maybe true, but for me it is the best. You never have enough shooting :)
  • magic depend 100% on your list and playstyle.

    Cosmo is overrated? In a gunline probably is useless, take Divi.

    Combat list? Maybe Cosmo is not that bad

    But Empire shine always in a mixture of everything

    Last game i tried 2 adepts (alchemy-Cosmo) + arcane shield and my magic phases were really good in my combat list.

    2 times +1 str or -1 str
    Blessings
    +2 armour

    Unerring, ice&Fire and molten copper

    Dont know, but for me is kore than enough
    Kislev army thread, We need You!
    New Army book Hetmanate of Ukray

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Villon ().

  • If you have watched any of Sadler's battle reports... Evershade gaming - I will look for a link, he has run a very knight heavy list with a Cosmos Master on the cart. It was inspiring. When you have multi wound models like the steam tank and wizard on a wagon, the ability to use touch the heart to heal them is amazing. It is the only access we have to healing, and when you bring back a wound on a Steam tank involved in a long combat with an enemy unit trying to tarpit it, it is demoralizing. (for them) :)
    Also Cosmos, with the Positive / Negative mechanic lets you play a very spread out magic phase, in that you can work the bonus +1 to cast back and forth and maximize those casting dice. It is a fun way to feel like you are stretching out the magic phase to frustrate the enemy. And I already praised the virtues of Unity in divergence as a weak unit killer / dispel dice magnet.

    Good times. :)
  • Gaius Marius wrote:

    If you have watched any of Sadler's battle reports... Evershade gaming - I will look for a link, he has run a very knight heavy list with a Cosmos Master on the cart. It was inspiring. When you have multi wound models like the steam tank and wizard on a wagon, the ability to use touch the heart to heal them is amazing. It is the only access we have to healing, and when you bring back a wound on a Steam tank involved in a long combat with an enemy unit trying to tarpit it, it is demoralizing. (for them) :)
    Also Cosmos, with the Positive / Negative mechanic lets you play a very spread out magic phase, in that you can work the bonus +1 to cast back and forth and maximize those casting dice. It is a fun way to feel like you are stretching out the magic phase to frustrate the enemy. And I already praised the virtues of Unity in divergence as a weak unit killer / dispel dice magnet.

    Good times. :)
    Yeah I’m a big fan of Cosmo. It’s the most well rounded Path we have access to. Something for everything. It’s even better now that Unity of only a 10+ yo cast. That’s an easy 3 dice cast when you have a master and you are using the Path correctly.

    Here’s Evershade Gaming. Not a lot going on but the last 10 or so battle reports all have the Cosmo Master on the cart.

    youtube.com/channel/UCKjjkWnXanizMuTh5obkxpA
    EVERSHADE GAMING! AMERICA'S FAVORITE YOUTUBE BATTLE REPORTER :thumbsup:

    Hey, I'm Charles. I'm the main contributor for Evershade Gaming on YouTube. I post Battle Reports, List Reviews for Midwest (U.S.A.) Tournaments, and videos on my ideas about the Ninth Age. I post 2-3 videos monthly.

    Link to my Channel! youtube.com/channel/UCKjjkWnXanizMuTh5obkxpA

    theforgottenturtle.com An Awesome Painting Blog!

    The post was edited 1 time, last by SadlerCPII ().

  • Bing wrote:

    So, I get that the Locket increase might make sense.

    But the unintended consequence is I think making the Inquisitor pretty much unplayable since it prevents Locket + Supernatural Dexterity build. Maybe allow the Inquisitor more magical item points? Just let him go to 125, or something like that.
    Locket+Dexterity was a cool build, but I don't think its absence makes the inquisitor any less viable now than it was before. With blessed steel the inquisitor's normal weapons are more than enough to win duels anyways so it wasn't necessarily needed anyways. The main benefit of dexterity was the agility buff to have the ability to just kill the opposing model outright, but potion of swiftness can serve a similar role. Locket+Dragonfire gem will still be solid on horse and Locket+Alchemist's Alloy+Paired Weapons is still decent in units with a prelate. So, overall, I think Locket is still in a good place for the inquisitor.

    Increasing the Inquisitor's magic item allotment probably won't be as good as expected since the more expensive inquisitors already struggle competing with 350pt+ characters despite having multiple wounds and lethal strike. In my personal experience I have found that the cheaper the inquisitor the better the results. It's just so hard for the model to earn 400pts or more.

    However, as a trade-off for the locket change we do get some sweet options for the inquisitor from this update. The previously available Blessed Steel+Brace of Pistols+Imperial Seal is back again and is an amazing tool to turn state militia from a harassment unit into a real aggressive beast. It was one of my favorite ways to play the Inquisitor earlier this year and I am pleased to have it back, plus it's much cheaper now (Crown of autocracy is still better for the harassment flee and rally style, but that mostly helps silver shots which is still pretty terrible anyway you look at it). Another new option is Titanic Might Paired weapons now allowing for more defensive options. And finally the newest Inquisitor build that I'm excited to try out is Blacksteel+Supernatural Dexterity+Ranger's Boots! I think it will have a lot of utility, but still need to try it out some.