Going Forward

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  • Reliquary wrote:

    Lord Drakon wrote:

    Pellegrim wrote:

    I think the only thing that thing that will have considerable impact is solid, appraochable, official fluff.
    Jup, we need a T9A Fantasy World that is as exciting, amazing, and glorious as the Warhammer World was.As soon as we have that, our miniatures will become more than just miniatures. They will become mighty armies arisen from our imaginations.

    So far great work this year, looking forward to 2020.
    Warhammer Fantasy was never that well written. It was, however shameless in reminding us (ripping off) things we liked. If you were into history, there were the lands of men: the Empire, Tilea, Araby, Estalia, Kislev, Cathay and so on. If you liked Tolkien, there were elves. Egyptian history and the Mummy movies: Tomb Kings. High Gothic Horror: vampires. There's nothing original about any of them.
    Warhammer Fantasy lore did turn for the worse after sixth edition. Settra originally conquered Khemri out of vanity but, in the 8th edition, Robin Cruddace thought it would be cooler to have him save Khemri from the hordes of orcs about to destroy it. You know, the exact same background as Sigmar, Gilles, Aenarion and the Immortal Emperor of Mankind. Sure, Cruddace says Settra was a vain and proud ruler but he doesn't show it. Before, he proved his pride by conquering solely from his own ambition. (The End Times proved it again. Settra does not serve.)

    Now think of Gilles. He saved Bretonnia. 'K, good job. He has zero character. Sigmar has character but that's only because we know he's a stand in for Conan the Barbarian. (Sunna sure doesn't know what's best in life.) Aenarion willfully drew the sword of Khaine, knowing it would doom his people. That tells the reader what sort of fellow he was, just like we used to know about Settra before GW decided to 'improve' his story with more explosions.

    It's really hard to write well.

    Even writing competently (oldschool GW) is not easy. Warhammer Fantasy simply stole neat bits of background from anything within reach. It even had Orc's Drift. Also very importantly, GW had no competition in its formative years. If you wanted to play fantasy miniature battles, you played warhammer.

    So, the 7th and 8th edition writers were imitating something decent and yet their work was terrible. Do you think 9th Age can do better?
    I disagree with a good deal of this sentiment.

    I think that Warhammer Fantasy has many elements that were very well written, particularly in the 80s into the late 90s. I do agree that The End Times was a sudden and rushed mess and was a really unfortunate way to write an end to The Old Worlde. But for me I can still look to the 30 years prior to the end of 8th Edition and enjoy a rich, deep and colorful world with which to have as a backdrop to tabletop games.

    GW's army books were always thorough, richly detailed tomes which gave you a lot more than just the points values for army lists.

    We can debate whether or not the quality of the writing that was done for the lore was good or not in various aspects, but you can't deny that GW put as much into the world behind their games as they did the games themselves. We may be disappointed with certain plot turns or character developments in the Old Worlde but it can't be denied that the world itself has a level of detail and depth that rivaled Tolkien's Middle Earth.

    Lest we forget, GW published whole campaign packages for Warhammer and also developed an entire roleplaying system for their fantasy realm.

    As far as GW copying fantasy elements from other sources and having nothing original of their own, I STRONGLY disagree. The Warhammer world had its own map and its own cities with their own unique names. Yes, the classic races of the world were taken from sources such as Middle Earth and other places - but we also now know that not even Tolkien invented orcs and goblins, he may not even have invented the concept of the hobbit. Other writers in the 19th Century and early 20th Century had written stories about short folk, and goblin-like races. So even the mighty Tolkien himself drew and "stole" from countless sources that came before him to shape his own vision for Middle Earth.

    That doesn't diminish the massive work and massive achievement that Tolkien accomplished with his now world-famous mythical pre-history of Europe.

    As such it should not be used as an indictment against GW that they borrowed from other fantasy sources to create the Old Worlde. Terry Brookes wrote the massively popular "Shanara" series - and much of that work is so blatantly Tolkienesque in style and design that it simply can't be avoided.

    The final thing I will say, and I have said this since the very beginning of the 9th Age project: I believe that this project should not be approached as something where we have to "better GW" or "one up GW" or do something that proves it's better than the Warhammer world. It's not a competition and should not be one. We can appreciate what GW gave us in their vision for the world we played their games in, and we can appreciate the work that is being done to create a world to give 9th Age its shape and substance.

    I think it steals a lot of energy and legitimacy from our efforts if we view the 9th Age as something where we have to "beat GW" somehow.

    I still own every single edition of Warhammer going back to 3rd Edition. I still have every rulebook, every starter box, every army book, every supplement from every edition of Warhammer. I still play games of Warhammer with the old editions of the rules. I still love the Warhammer world as it was the very first world I was introduced to that had a mass battle game associated with it.

    I'm not throwing them all away because I play 9th Age now. That would be beyond stupid and just plain foolish. It would be like throwing away all my Tolkien books because people think Game of Thrones is a better written story! :thumbup:
    There are many magic rings in the world Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly!
  • yeah, and it worked out really well. it will be remembered for years to come, and strongly too. there is a genuinely deep passion a lot of people have for it and no amount of "but they copped ideas" will ever tarnish it. 9th got one hell of a long way to even play with the idea of being remembered half as fondly or even a fraction of the impact. which is fine - not everyone can be a big player and make waves like that - but trying to pick and probe at warhammer doesn't really accomplish anything for anyone.
  • What I don't think I ever really saw in other media, at least before GW pioneered it, was hte utterly all-pervasive corruption of the world, especially in the empire. Where cultists of the dark gods were everywhere, waiting for a perverted noble, a greedy merchant, a slighted lover, to whisper the right words at the right time to make them sell their soul. Yes, there was the original underground cult in pulp, but they were more "capture the virgin and summon the demon" than the subtle, persuasive, creeping chaos of the old world. And the occasional Masque of Red Death, of course, but they tended to go more in the direction of morality tales and getting their just comeuppance, than getting heard and rewarded by the things that lurk just a step away outside reality.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    Collection of all offcially posted Vermin background

    'All the gifts your parents gave you, all the love and patience of your friends, you drowned in a neurotoxin. You let misery win. And it will keep on winning till you die — or overcome it.'
  • Grahf wrote:

    one of my dearest friends read Moorcock's work and said that basically 80%+ of Warhammer ideas are basically rip-offs.
    Not really, cause ideas of Warhammer are rip-off from other settings , mixed with history and pop culture. But Chaos stuffes, yes especially the base, is heavily inspired and influenced by that.
    Wiki page of Moorcock
  • We have to remember as well that almost all of the classic fantasy creatures were originally folklore or myths. Elves and Goblins were commonly believed to inhabit the woods, just like giants, dragons and vampires. And while certain popular iterations of those creatures have been more popular than others, it's really unfair (and pointless) to say "this guy with goblins in his book stole from this guy with goblins in his book".
    My wife and I just released our first video game title!
  • Grahf wrote:

    one of my dearest friends read Moorcock's work and said that basically 80%+ of Warhammer ideas are basically rip-offs.
    ...and much of Tolkien is various levels of ripoffs in one form or another, not including numerous Biblical references. I'm still not exactly sure what the point of pointing that out is.

    World of Warcraft is a hugely popular game that ripped off basically the entire fantasy aesthetic from the past forty years, chiefly the Warhammer aesthetic.

    Terry Brookes wrote the massively popular Shanara series, which is absolutely filled with thinly disguised ripoffs from Tolkien.

    The point is that every great fantasy work of popular culture took from things that came before it.

    Even 9th Age, while it will is and will certainly be unique in its own right, will still have some flavors and influence from previous fantasy worlds - including The Warhammer world. And that's not a bad thing.
    There are many magic rings in the world Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly!
  • ...there were hobbits and elves and orcs and goblins of a sort in fantasy fiction long before Tolkien wrote The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Tolkien gave them his own unique character and life that was specific to his Middle Earth. But he wasn't the first to conceive of them.
    There are many magic rings in the world Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly!
  • rewording:

    80%+ of Warhammer interesting/brand new ideas are merely Morcoock's rip-offs that can be outlined with so much more in-depth that the wiki you linked, with basically same gods with slightly different names and so much more, but I stop here because I don't want to seem offensive.

    If someone is interested in debunking Warhammer Fantasy background, I'll be glad to reply in the next months as for the time being I simply don't have time.
  • I mean that there is a difference between plagiarism and inspiration. GW-Moocock's relation leans heavy towards the first one.

    If you have just one interesting idea, basically Chaos and Chaos gods, and you take it directly from one source that's far away from inspiration.

    Even Mozart did it, but it doesn't matter, if you make a carbon copy from directly from one source is plagiarism.

    At least I can say that they chose a good source.
  • The real shame here is that this "one interesting idea" was one you guys DIDN'T copy and now there is the least exciting evil cosmology I think you could have went with. Yes, seven deadly sins. That's really knocking it out of the park guys. It'll be remembered for weeks to come.

    Edit: the job of a writer, a storyteller, a director, is not to be original but to be interesting. Nowhere in the big book of how to be engaging does it ever say you have to be wholly unique. Or even partially. Or at all. But you better damn well be interesting. Warhammer Fantasy had that in spades.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Pigtails ().

  • Pigtails wrote:

    The real shame here is that this "one interesting idea" was one you guys DIDN'T copy and now there is the least exciting evil cosmology I think you could have went with. Yes, seven deadly sins. That's really knocking it out of the park guys. It'll be remembered for weeks to come.

    Edit: the job of a writer, a storyteller, a director, is not to be original but to be interesting. Nowhere in the big book of how to be engaging does it ever say you have to be wholly unique. Or even partially. Or at all. But you better damn well be interesting. Warhammer Fantasy had that in spades.
    "a good artist copy, a great artist steal.... A genius recycle"
  • @Baranovich

    The entire point of my argument is that the Warhammer setting was better for not trying to be original. I would have found, for example, the elves less interesting if I'd never heard of Tolkien.

    After 6th edition, the background writing for the army books took a measurable turn for the worse. Can provide examples, if you like.

    9th Age is (or will be) in direct competition with Warhammer and the new Old World game. If it can't stand the comparison, it won't last.
    Dustman's Hall -- Warhammer Lore
  • Good or not, I will prefer a more fantasy and dangerous setting.

    Everybody say that t9a setting is more realistic and this is why they like it, (when they do, sometimes they quoting some silly stuff about potatoes farming). But (ihmo) IS not so realistic at all. If it was realistic, we will have elves with cannons and firearms.
    The escamotage of the freeze time was also a great point for the writers.
    And yes, the magic helped a lot, but at least there was magic, here we have a kind of 1000gods/faction. Cults everywhere.
  • Grahf wrote:

    I mean that there is a difference between plagiarism and inspiration. GW-Moocock's relation leans heavy towards the first one.

    If you have just one interesting idea, basically Chaos and Chaos gods, and you take it directly from one source that's far away from inspiration.
    I read an interview of Moorcock where he was really saying that basically the Warhammer guys in the 1980s were enthusiastic geeks who had lots of discussions with him and went like « Do you mind if we steal this and that idea from you », and he basically, in that golden age of the first RPGs, behaved just like Gary Gigax : « Yeah, sure, guys, do what you want, have fun ! Really happy to see my ideas inspiring others ». And today he holds a deep grudge against them.

    Still, there is a big difference in that the Warhammer setting originally had both Order and Chaos gods which were each extremes of one Order/Chaos spectrum, with Witchhunters adoring Solkan (oh whatever was his name) being the worst and often triggering their own Order-worshipping cults which were as bad to normal society than the Chaos ones.

    Sigmar and the others were « Neutral » gods.

    Then Sigmar became the god of the warrior-priests in WH 6ed, and took the mantle of the main god of Order along with the Elven gods.

    Mercenary Armies wrote:

    If it was realistic, we will have elves with cannons and firearms.


    here we have a kind of 1000gods/faction. Cults everywhere.

    Elves with cannons : the good thing, is that I can trust the BG team to give us a good explanation about the why. That was never the case in WH.

    1000 gods by faction ?
    It was exactly the same in WH, I don't get your meaning.
    The WH elven pantheon is like 30 or 40 divinities, and the human pantheon had a dozen, including national hero-gods such as Myrmidia, Sigmar and the Lady. Dwarves also had at least 5 gods.

    What else do we have ? Up to now, I didn't count more than 4 human gods and 14 elven gods, along with maybe 1 ogre god, 2-3 orc gods, 5 infernal dwarves gods, and the Alihat religion that is common to Qassar and Koghi cultures. Well and the 7+1 Chaos gods. I don't think they are too many.
    Also, where are the « cults everywhere » ? I see cults in the DE book, and it's not sure they will remain in the new FAB. I see three gods in the EoS book, one for each spell, but there were also 3-4 spells in WHFB for the Warrior-priests, and those gods don't have any other influence than being the name of the spell, so i don't see the point, it's just a cosmetic change.
    OK, and some cults in the ID book, we don't know yet how far they will have influence on the game.

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