Going Forward

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  • @kisanis - very well said. i didnt know this is (also part of) what i meant, tnx for unpacking.

    @Casp - offtopic - i couldnt agree more. since the beginning, i planned to add a table with rows for each entry (this unit base cost, points per additional model, option 1, option 2...) and lets say a dozen columns, one for each new edition. the first column would have the current prices, the others would be empty, for you to fill as a new version comes out.

    alternatively, with a bit of support (that's what patreon is for...), i could release a new pdf every time a new edition comes out. you print it at home on sticker paper, glue it to the inside of the back cover, done. especially doable if it is hardcover, and if it all fits 1 DIN A4 page.

    long story short: i agree we should deal with this, and i already have a couple ideas, so if you do stripped points out of the LAB you'd make me happy!
  • kisanis wrote:

    Pigtails wrote:

    Yes, you are competing. You're competing with KoW and so on. Directly, even.

    No, you don't know it's going to be a skirmish game or a specialist game or whatever - there's no evidence one way or the other and erring on the side of 'it's small scale' to dismiss the possibility of another wargame doesn't serve anyone.

    This kind of head-in-the-sandism about the future of fantasy wargaming is not helpful to the project or the community at large.

    Prepare for the case it does all come back and you're not going to be left holding the bag when it does happen. If it turns out The Old World is just a small scale game or a boxed set or something, you'll be pleasantly surprised. But don't expect that to be the way of things; GW is not in the business of a small release without support, not these days.
    Let me be clear.

    We are not competing with GW in a normal captialist sense.
    I mean, we compete with GW insofar as (for me personally) T9A competes with my family... We're competing for time more than anything else. And that makes things... weird. I'll explain:

    Someone can give our 'Competitor' 100% of their hobby dollars/Euros/Gold Coins, but 0% of their hobby time.
    If someone builds a new T9A army, exclusively from new GW products, who has won? GW or T9A? Someone has to win - thats the essense of competition afterall.

    GW got 100% of the profits, but we got 100% of the time. They are playing our game, not theirs. But they got all the money.

    We don't "Compete" because we don't care where our players put their money.

    In order for there to be 'competition' there has to be winning and losing. Mantic takes market share from GW - Consumers give their money to Mantic instead of GW. Mantic competes with GW. If money doesn't change hands, there really isn't any competition - not in any real sense that matters.

    T9A could lose the ETC but that doesn't mean the project would die - We are fueled by passionate community members - so long as those exist the project will continue along - maybe in a different direction, at a different pace, but it will continue along.

    So what does the future hold for us? Whatever we deem it does - this is driven by the community, regardless of what the negative nancy's say - we are constantly working to deliver a game for gamers, by gamers. We all come from the community and we all work our tails off to deliver the product for that community.

    I put the hours in, so that a bunch of guys at my FLGS can have an amazing time while playing with toy soldiers.

    Now that said. I'm tired and taking the night off :D
    Couldn't have said it better myself! Absolutely.

    Back in late 2012 I reestablished myself back into fantasy gaming when I got a lump sum of money due to a work injury. I enthusiastically marched into my local gaming store and spent about $3,000 in a single afternoon. I'm not saying that to brag, the amount of money I spent was due to the fact that I needed pretty much everything. I got GW's full paint range, special ordered one of the Citadel Realm of Battle Boards, got enough GW plastic miniatures to fill out about three 4,000 point Warhammer armies, several GW terrain kits, army books, etc.

    Not everything I bought that day was GW but darn near so. At the time I was still playing Warhammer so it was all geared towards that game. Since then of course I've been using my armies and terrain to play mostly 9th Age and some Kings of War, plus AOS.

    And since 2012 I've spent probably another few thousand dollars at that store getting new paint supplies, brushes, more minis., etc. And of course I've shopped on numerous online sites for alternate mini. ranges to fill out my 9th Age armies.

    Now to Kisanis' point. Who "won" here in this scenario?

    WELL - first and foremost, my local store won BIG! I fully intended from the start to go through him to buy all the GW stuff. It would have been totally foolish and just plain rude to order everything direct from GW and bypass a local store.

    The store I'm referring to by the way is Clockwork Comics in Orange, CT. I am lucky enough to be about fifteen minutes away from one of the few stores in the entire country that not only sells the full range of GW stuff for AOS, 40k, Warmachine, Warmahordes, (which of course isn't unique) etc. but also still has a huge amount of back stock of old Warhammer stuff going back several editions which he still has for sale. He has all of it fully on the shelves. It is very cool to be able to go into a brick and mortar store in 2020 and be able to pick Warhammer regiments and battalions and blister packs off the shelf that have a production date of 2006 on them! He even still has shrinkwrapped GW army books and supplements going back several editions of Warhammer which is very cool just from a nostalgia standpoint.

    Basically it's like having a local independent gaming store and GW store all rolled into one and run by a super awesome owner.

    This is Dean, the owner of Clockwork Comics, one of the absolutely coolest people I know:

    Now technically it's a comic store primarily. But it carries wargaming stuff as if it was a full-fledged wargaming store.

    This guy has been in business for 25 years, I've been going to his store since 2002. I knew him when his daughters were babies, they're both in college now.

    There is no other place in earth I would have ever considered dropping $3,000 in a single day.

    And so to get back to Kisanis' point. In this scenario my friend Dean won big. Games Workshop won big because obviously everything I bought Dean ordered from GW at some earlier point.

    But now I'm using all of that GW stuff to play games of 9th Age as well as other games.

    So it's kind of hard to qualify who "won" or "lost" here.

    If the goal of 9th Age, which some people seem hellbent on insisting, is to BEAT GW somehow - well my shopping spree at Dean's store was a massive failure, lol!

    My friend Dean had what might be his single biggest sale in his store's history that day. GW struck gold because a gamer getting back into the hobby, me, chose GW as the miniature company of choice to get back into the hobby. And now 9th Age is reaping the benefit because me and Steve (Mr. Owl) both represent 9th Age at our local store in Norwalk and we use GW armies to represent the game to passer-bys.

    And that's Kisanis' entire point. Kind of hard to determine who wins or loses in a system where you're buying something for one purpose but then end up using it for many other purposes! :thumbup:
    There are many magic rings in the world Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly!

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Baranovich ().

  • First of all I need to say that this one is a good thread with very healthy discussions on numerous topics, all regarding T9A somehow. It's a shame, I've missed it before.

    Ghiznuk wrote:

    Yesterday, someone posted in the group « Warhammer France » asking what game they (he and his wife) should play since there is no more WHFB, expressing doubt at which AoS faction he should choose. I immediately jumped on the guy and sent him to both our French and Belgium FB groups (he's from Liège).
    He got so enthused by the spirit of the whole project that today he's sending a message to @Eru to ask and join the layout team.

    And this evening, I'm publishing our WotDG FAB in FRENCH ! the-ninth-age.com/IMG/pdf/t9a-bf_2ed_gdds_2020_el_ld_fr1.pdf
    This is how we go forward, sirs ;)
    That's the spirit, for sure!

    I've been in a very similar situation on monday by the way. A fellow chemistry student had a short chat with me about computer games. I told him, I was more this "manual" guys, playing games on a board instead of investing a lot of time (which I can't afford anyways) into computer games. Then he shortly stopped talking to me like he was thinking about how he could redirect our discussion then and just a few moments later he carried on with something like: "Yeah, well I've also been playing some Trading Card Games like MtG for a while, but I'm not interested in it anymore. I'm sick of paying so much money to stay on a competitive level with my opponents. I really think a gamers skill should decide about a games result in the end and not his money bag." Suddenly there was some kind of glowing in his eyes and he told me: "Man, have you already seen this new shop right here in Koblenz? It's called Warhammer! They build up whole worlds on massive boards, fighting battles with miniatures on it. I guess I'll have to go there and have a look into this kind of hobby. It looks pretty interesting!"

    I knew my time had come. :)

    While I'm the head of a wargaming club with a couple of players for T9A and AoS, I usually invite interested people into my club and let them decide on their own wether AoS or T9A was "their" game. But in this special case I told him about our philosophy regarding the use of miniatures (as it was the best argument to get someone into the hobby, who was especially searching for a non pay-to-win, but play-to-win system). Then I told him about our fluff, about the factions, about our community, about my work as a volunteer, ... well, I didn't have enough time to get into detail, but I guess he'd got a good overview of T9A on this afternoon. But he was also somekind of skeptical cause I told him: "This game is made by the community - for the community". I literally saw him asking himself: "How could a system made by the community compete with a system produced by a company?"

    But I was a lucky boy that day, because on mondays we have our weekly club evening - so right at the same day I invited him to visit us there. As he arrived I opened up some beers and passed him a tube of our hookah. I told him, I was playing a test game with my VC army against my friend Mario and his UD army. I told him we're currently training for the BeLaMa, a big 4 - players - team tourney here in Germany but he was able to ask me or him every question, that comes to his mind. I passed him some of my freshly printed Slim Books ( thanks to @Uthegen ) and saw how our guests brain started working - he saw the quality that our game had and he could even hold it in his hands - FOR FREE (apart from the printing costs, of course).

    Afterwards we were talking about the size of our community (BeLaMa is going to be visited by 112 participants), about the LABs and their quality in EVERY regard - artwise, fluffwise, ruleswise & layoutwise. Art & fluff is a very subjective topic - one likes it, others don't. But no one could assert that our product quality (Slim Army Books and Full Army Books especially) was not at least of the same level as the products done by other companies - while we're expecting no one to pay a single €/$ for it. Our last topic was about miniatures. He noted several times while Mario and me were playing: "Wow, such an amazing miniature - what manufacturer is it from?". Most of the time the answer was Games Workshop as most of my armies still are made up by a lot of GW miniatures. But we also spoke about AoW, Mantic, Mierce and so on.

    And then I told him (and it's nothing but the truth since my AoS club mates are debating about it a lot): "And that's the point, you can use simply every miniature you like to represent an unit entry. It only has to fit on the corresponding base and then you're fine. My AoS club mates are limited to GW only, otherwise they can't take part at least at bigger tournies and so on. So either you decide to trust a company to do balancing and stuff for your game - and keep in mind, they NEED to sell their models and not only write rules for them (this fact might sometimes end up in pay-to-win scenarios) - or you trust the community to do balancing and stuff for your game and use whatever model you like. Of course, game mechanics, dice dependancy and many other aspects of these games are very different as well. One needs to like the T9A's complexity when it comes to becoming a better player and one needs to like AoS' bigger randomness factors. Both might serve you with the fun of playing the game you're searching for."

    Right now, he's searching the T9A miniatures library. :)

    These are my two cents regarding the competition of T9A and other wargames. ;)

    (Games Workshop invested time & money to give wargaming visibility in public - a sneaky guy like me was lying in wait for potential wargaming interested victims - T9A project gained one new member to its community - supporting companies earn money for selling him miniatures) :D

    Full Layout Coordinator

    Translation Team DE

    VC Community Support

    Supporter of Veil of the Ages

  • Lich King wrote:

    "I'm sick of paying so much money to stay on a competitive level with my opponents. I really think a gamers skill should decide about a games result in the end and not his money bag." Suddenly there was some kind of glowing in his eyes and he told me: "Man, have you already seen this new shop right here in Koblenz? It's called Warhammer! They build up whole worlds on massive boards, fighting battles with miniatures on it. I guess I'll have to go there and have a look into this kind of hobby. It looks pretty interesting!"

    I knew my time had come. :)

    it'd be great if he decided to come to BeLaMa. @DucdeGuerre surely knows how to put up a great show, he'll enjoy that. also, if he's into videogames, he might like what he'll see. who knows, by next week i might manage to put my hands on a nice VR headset to use with the Arena videogame. imagine what a rollercoaster it'd be for him : D
  • piteglio wrote:

    am i allowed to disagree?
    Always! :)

    piteglio wrote:

    guys, are you sure you're not seriously underestimating this project?
    I don't think so. I think T9A is a fantastic game and if the staff can keep up the high standards they've set, then it'll do fine.

    My point was that if the bar drops the project will struggle. I think that's true of any LIVE game - if it's not up to scratch, people will spend their time elsewhere.

    The only critisim I would have of the project is that some armies have lost some to a lot of the character they had in WFB. I'm hoping / expecting the FAB for those armies to correct those issues.

    kisanis wrote:

    We don't "Compete" because we don't care where our players put their money.

    kisanis wrote:

    We're competing for time more than anything else.
    These 2 statements are contradictory. We either compete or we don't. I agree that we dont care where players put their money and we do care where players spend their time.

    Using your example:
    GW are after money, so they're happy that the T9A player has spent money on their models.
    T9A are after the player's time so they're happy the player is using T9A rules but GW are unhappy with this.
    Overall GW are neutral and T9A are happy.
    So T9A "Wins" and GW "Draws"
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Lich King wrote:

    As he arrived I opened up some beers and passed him a tube of our hookah
    You'd have me sold on T9A right here!

    Jokes aside, good work mate. If that guy isnt converted I'll eat my hat!
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2019

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2020