Snipespells (especially with range boost) are the single most imbalanced and annoying thing in T9A

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  • The average casting on 4 dice with a master is 15. That means you can easily throw 2 snipes on an MR 3 unit.

    One might get dispelled. The other will go through. If they have 5 dispel dice, which is the most common, there is a good chance both spells will get through.

    Your wizard master could easily die 2nd or 3rd turn in an MR 3 unit. MR is not the answer. 4+ aegis is not the answer. 3 wounds is easy to do over a couple magic phases even with 4+ aegis.

    The combination of taking multiple snipe spells has no answer for most lists. Even healing is not a complete hard counter, because in some cases one magic phase is enough to kill a character.
  • King Kazador wrote:


    Your wizard master could easily die 2nd or 3rd turn in an MR 3 unit. MR is not the answer. 4+ aegis is not the answer. 3 wounds is easy to do over a couple magic phases even with 4+ aegis.
    Having your character die 2nd or 3rd turn seems like a normal game. I mean, if you aren't hiding out of range/LoS all game, there's a decent chance any character will die by the 2nd or 3rd turn if the opponent really focuses on them.
    My army Wip blogs:
    Siege Daemons (DL)
    Knights of Nethys (WDG)

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  • King Kazador wrote:

    The average casting on 4 dice with a master is 15. That means you can easily throw 2 snipes on an MR 3 unit.

    One might get dispelled. The other will go through. If they have 5 dispel dice, which is the most common, there is a good chance both spells will get through.

    Your wizard master could easily die 2nd or 3rd turn in an MR 3 unit. MR is not the answer. 4+ aegis is not the answer. 3 wounds is easy to do over a couple magic phases even with 4+ aegis.

    The combination of taking multiple snipe spells has no answer for most lists. Even healing is not a complete hard counter, because in some cases one magic phase is enough to kill a character.
    This must be why snipe lists are storming the tournament scene across the globe: there's simply no answer for them; nothing at all you can do; your characters just dead second turn; the game is over before it's even played; might as well just put on rubber boots and play a children's splashing game in a puddle of your own tears instead.

    This post is just silly. Your wizard master is, unless you have made a mistake, not within range of snipe spells turn one. On the second turn the opponent might have touch of the reaper and a spell that just does one wound. You let the spell that does one wound through. Same thing on the third, and the fourth game turns. Your opponent has now had effectively no magic phase except killing your wizard for four turns of playing one wizard master (and some other sources of channel since we're assuming eight dice phases) where you have done basically nothing (no line of sight tricks or anything) to try and stop the opponents strategy. I can definitely see now that this is clearly a balance emergency.
  • @Vamp87 No need to resort to teasing. Starting to feel mean.

    @King Kazador What army/character builds are you running where the snipes are such an issue? Could it be a matter of tactics (like a particular tactic makes you more vulnerable to snipes)?

    I agree that if one opponent focuses their magic they can potentially kill an entire character in a single turn. But seems like that's not just a matter of the opponent having casters, it's also about having a target in the ideal spot and with ideal stats to be sniped.

    Are you setting up the game to invite the opponent to focus fire all their magic on a single unit? I can see where MR3 and 4+ aegis wouldn't be enough against a full army working against a single unit.

    This does seem like something that would be a larger issue for Vampire or Mummy armies. Dust to Dust or Ashes to Ashes as an army rule would certainly be more problematic if your character got sniped, and more likely that the opponent would consider focusing fire on them. My Daemons don't lose nearly as much from the loss of our characters as those armies do.
    My army Wip blogs:
    Siege Daemons (DL)
    Knights of Nethys (WDG)

    Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Chronocide ().

  • Pigtails wrote:

    whatever happened to binding scrolls?
    you know that it is now traditional that in whine threads reasonable counters are always ignored, enemy is always lucky so you can whine better.

    Still I find such threads somewhat amusing as the mental gymnastics needed, by whiners, to ignore all the contrary evidence and argumentation is always spectacular.
    My gallery: Adam painting stuff (HbE, VC and lots of terrain)
    My battle reports: Adam Battle reports
  • DanT wrote:

    Clangeddin Silverbeard wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    I am somewhat of the opinion that macroscopic/big picture strategy can be the best defence against snipes.
    Of course this is quite matchup and list dependent, so is hardly a magic bullet, but still often worth considering.
    Perhaps I understand what you're saying, but your statement is just a bit too vague for me to be sure. :D Care to elaborate a bit?
    It is highly contextual, so hard to do so.And as a result, whatever I say, someone will say "what if..." or "but your opponent will just do blah...".

    But, let me try anyway :P

    For example, consider where you think the axis of engagement will be.
    I.e. if you skew towards one corner, will the opponent go opposite you or skew towards the other side?
    If the latter, you can probably create a pocket where at least some of your more easily snipe-able models are able to influence the game, but difficult to snipe without your opponent exposing their snipers.

    Or perhaps in a different match, you might put your snipeable models in a "second wave", again giving them some range/LOS protection, and forcing the snipers into battle with your first wave if they want to snipe.

    Or perhaps you can just put your snipeable models into combat ASAP where they can't be targeted.

    Or maybe you can sacrifice a unit to assassinate the snipers; even if this isn't a "fair" trade in points (which I'm not sure is a meaningful concept anyway), the effect it has on the flow of the match could easily have a large effect on the result.


    So it is about creating indirect/implicit snipe defense from the coherent use of your whole army.


    As I say, it clearly isn't a magic bullet: it is matchup and list dependent, and will still be dependent on play details as well.
    And every so often, you will have to be exposed at some point, and your opponent can always roll a really high casting value, and pass their to wound roll, and do 3 wounds...

    Nonetheless, this approach vs snipes executed well has helped me more times than I can remember, and is about skewing the probability distribution that little extra bit into your favour: if you do 50 things that improve ones win rate by 1%...
    You mean we might actually have to play the game well to win? Can't have that, obviously.

    Snipes may not be fun directly but the kind of meta game you describe can be, if they're managed well to enable it.

    I do find that stabbing things that perturb me, fast and like, a lot, solves many a thorny problem.

    Data Analysis

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Hachiman Taro ().

  • I think snipes are just very unfun to play and win/lose with or against. Which is why I think they shouldn't be a part of the game. I never saw anyone enjoy a game based around snipes. My opinion is 9th Age should be a game based more around unit mechanics so I don't favor this sort of thing.

    A couple of points.

    1. Almost all the armies with multiple snipes have ways to range boost. Most range boosts are quite undercosted (my opinion). Some can even reroll wounds (cough cough viel walker).
    2. You can't always block LoS. Caster is Large, Can get to a Hill, You need you own mage in range to cast. Caster teleports or move 16" etc.
    3. MR doesn't really stop 4 dicing two snipe spells. If you're forced to use binding scrolll for these you are likely in a losing position.
    4. Once there is a siginifigant combat, there are spells that have to be stopped (buff/hex) in order to win the game. This allows snipes to go off.
    5. Sometime you just roll bad to dispell some turns and two snipes go off and you lose your mage/bsb/general in one turn.
    6. Sometimes one snipe can kill your 3 wound character with a 4++ aegis.
    7. Many armies rely on thier mag/gen/bsb and the loss of them usually means getting 0-20. The leadership dependent armies are typically lower on the power level so shouldn't be extra penalized. The game still trends to those armies who have to make less leadership tests winning more often.
    8. Snipes have a cumulative effect as they do damage. Every turn snipe spells chance give you a small chance to win the game big, added throughout the game it becomes a much larger percentage than people realize.

    To me this is a "cheap" way to win. I am still unsure why 9th age felt they needed to add in snipes. Can we ask ourselves if snipes spells add anything to game or do they take away from it? For me the obiovous awnser is they take away from the game. Shouldn't this be a game about units and maneuvering.
  • fjugin wrote:

    The actual data, collected during spring and summer of 2019, actually doesn't indicate that we have a "snipe meta". Paths with snipes were not over used at all.

    Vamp87 wrote:

    I would also dispute that there is zero skill involved in sniping. None of these spells have more than 24" range so setting up a snipe (especially if it is a non-combat mage against another non-combat mage) can present challenges

    YeahGucciFrisur wrote:

    the big issue is, that the sniping player doesnt have to be prepared for the counter, , because the other spells in the lores are strong too, while the countering player has to be prepared for the snipe.

    Adam wrote:

    The ones that don't need LoS have low range or deal single wound.

    Maelstorm wrote:

    lso, I am of the opinion that if you put 1000-1500 pts in Wizards (which is what you´ll have to do to get tripple snipes)

    dan wrote:

    Can someone please post a list of the snipe spells being discussed here?
    Sorry, but I cherry picked the above posts to draw attention to the following.

    As somebody who has used a full snipe build, yes it can be Dangerous, but there is counter play.

    In my view there will be an increase of snipe builds in the future by UD Armies.
    With the change to the UD Magic phase hitting Divination Repair this will lend itself to more Double Master lists using Cosmo and Evocation.
    This will give UD Players 3 Snipe Spells.
    Range nor LOS will be a problem if both Wizards are on Arks. So 2 Masters used solo with good protection for circa 1100pts.
    If opponent has counter play against Snipes the UD Player can concentrate on the Repair Spells and not therefore lose anything.

    Will it be a major problem ? I honestly dont know ! But it will have to be something that should be monitored just in case.
  • WastelandWarrior wrote:

    I dont disagree that multisnipe is a bit much but just wait till you face daemons..... they do it sooo well with master evo, master thaum, +4 dice every turn, +2 to cast on 2 dice.

    I also dont like that everyone and their mother is rocking MR4 on every meaningful unit that houses characters, almost certainly due to this sniping shenanigans, which for 45pts, pretty much ensures that the unit is totally immune from magic of any kind.

    Its all locked in for the year now though so I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it pans out
    Yep.

    Also, it’s the above Demon math that really staggers me, on a build where Wizard Masters happen to also be combat powerhouses at least 1/2 the time.

    Adam wrote:

    Generally MR and Wards kill snipe builds easily. You are just wasting dice trying to force them.
    You’re wasting dice trying to do anything that is less than likely to succeed, but especially early game when combat buffs are not needed putting effort into incredibly high reward efforts is hardly a poor idea.

    20phoenix wrote:

    I think the "but they can take other spells" defence is my favourite post of the week. That's going to amuse me for hours
    Chuckle away.

    The fact that, for example the demon type build listed above, can select Paths with the express purpose of being able to stack snipes, and still have a highly functional, multi-phase effecting set of spells is part of what makes that such a strong build, because your army can be built with the that plan in mind, and both function perfectly well if it’s abandoned during selection, or during a game in which those spells were selected.


    For context, I generally run 3-4 characters (2-4 in one unit), with only my General relying on a Special Save, and MR3 on my most important unit (via the BSB), with Dis9 base and 10 for a General.

    I’ve ran this well before DL snipes became a reality, because of the instant-game-winning effect of magic, but over a full 6 turns against a DL force built with this plan in mind (especially if it’s partially executed by a Pride Demon), i’d be shocked if I stood much of a chance.
  • 20phoenix wrote:

    So you're saying the game should never change because you're not willing to adapt to a changing meta?
    if the above is in response to me quoting you, you’re going to have to build a larger paragraph to explain how your comment makes sense in that context.

    If it’s a response to someone else, you should at least tag them so that they know to respond to you.
  • Dark pulpit Sentinel with Guiding mirrored scales, unnatural roots, exalted champion. evocation

    Omen with Guiding mirrored scales, unnatural roots and bronzed back bone. Thaumaturgy

    2x20 Lemures with full command and venon sacs.

    The rest of the list has jumped about a bit depending on meta, but this core is almost 3000pts of core and characters. However the point is that this list sits safe with 2 units that are very hard to break through, and I cast both evo snipes and the Thaumaturgy snipe every turn that I don’t need combat steroids. I get +4 dice every single turn, have 9 spells, 3 snipes, 1 hand of heavan, 1 spear of infinity, 1 breath weapon and 2 combat buffs. Almost all of these can be safely cast on 2 dice, apart from targeted snipes. It’s the strongest magic phase I’ve ever had.

    Not saying all triple snipe DL lists will look similar, but as an example of points denial and character sniping it’s a good one.
  • There are two different things thrown in here together.
    OP posted about Snipe Spells with range boost.

    The daemon lists with a reliable +4 Dice phase has no access to range boosts. It is also not able to reliably cast the snipe spells with 2 dice (for the additional casting bonus)
    My DL-blog: Legions from the frozen wwastes

    My painting league: Painting challenge 2020
  • yrtomin wrote:

    Can we start posting snipe lists.
    My UD Barrow List. 4500pts, 2.2 Beta.

    Characters, 1720pts
    Pharaoh, General, Gt Bow, Super Dex, Hvy Arm, Sh, Chariot, Steeds of Nephet, 475
    Nomarch, Bow, Lgt Arm, Sh, Chariot, 220
    Hierarch, Master, Cosmology, Lgt Arm, Ark of Ages, 490
    Hierarch, Master, Evocation, Lgt Arm, Ark of Ages, Hierophanr, 535

    Core, 2428pts
    5 x Legion Chariots, Halberd, Bow, Hvy Arm, FCG, Banner of Speed, 640
    5 x Legion Chariots, Halberd, Bow, Hvy Arm, FCG, Stalkers Standard, 630
    18 x Skellie Cav, Lance, Lgt Arm, Sh, FCG, Stalkers Standard, 384
    18 x Skellie Cav, Lance, Lgt Arm, Sh, FCG, Stalkers Standard, 384
    10 x Skellie Scouts, Bow, 195
    10 x Skellie Scouts, Bow, 195

    Special, 352ts
    4 x Gt Vultures, 176
    4 x Gt Vultures, 176.

    With 2 Masters, Cosmo and Evocation, I have access to 3 Snipe Spells, with an additional 6 ( 1 Ark ) or 12 ( both Arks ) inch range.
    My Pharaohs Unit with Steeds and Speed Banner is Ghost Step, Adv 9, March 16
    My 3 other CC Units have Stalkers, meaning I can basically ignore Terrain and DT Tests.
    Both Chariot Units have built in UW. so Off and Def 5.
    22 Bows at Aim 4 as well as 24 Bows at Aim 5 means I might actually hit something with shooting.
    My Skellie Cav have Full Lance so Stgh 5, AP 2, Which can be buffed with Precep of Stgh and/or Whispers of Veil so normally 2s to wound.
    2 units of Vultures with their extra speed ( and fly ) to get to where they are needed.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by wombat ().