What is your experience with the latest version of the SE (slim) army book? (2nd Ed Dec26 2020)

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  • What is your experience with the latest version of the SE (slim) army book? (2nd Ed Dec26 2020)

    Hey Elves and Trees!

    What is your play experience with the latest version (after the late 2020 update) version of the SE book?

    Are you finding it better / more balanced than before?

    What new combinations are you choosing?

    Are you finding SE more appealing after the update, and are you seeing more SE players putting armies on the table?

    (The old thread that we have been using as a place for general forum conversation is a bit less relevant now, with a lot of stuff relating to pre update - so I thought I'd start a new one for the new update, now we've had a bit more chance to try it out. Feel free to discuss general SE things here related to the latest version of the army.).

    Data Analysis

  • I'm not sure who the survey is directed to, the tournament scene or the casual gamer?

    As a casual gamer, here is my feedback:
    Played 5-6 games so far. Got to add a few things, compared to the previous version. Had fun with a mixed army; with a bit of everything list. Balance is the same, just as good. Didn't find any new combinations, was looking at the magical items; what can I give to the heroes. Was hoping to add some magical shooting, sadly nothing changed there. Only Hail Shot seems ok-ish. I really didn't like it that I had to (again) re-calculate all the units in my list, but was happy once I sow more points left over in the end and spent some time thinking how to increase the army. Would have hated if I had to waste time crunching numbers and dropping stuff, so SE are fine, sucks to be UD? :D

    As a tournament player:
    Played a single day tournament and a few practice games before it. Got to add a Dragon mount for the mage, only had to drop an eagle, thicket beast and a huntsmen or two. Won big almost all games. Balance was fine, since I won big almost all games. I don't want to be able to win all games, but if I had to draw most of my games new balance would have been off, right? Didn't spot any new broken combos. Even if i did, I wouldn't tell, will save it for the ETC. Shooting weapons are just as bad as before, they need some serious help. Did I mention I won big almost all games? It seems important to say it.


    So, just in case someone missed my very sarcastic point; why beat around the bush with this (and all other similar) surveys?
    Can't you just ask two questions: What can we do to make the army more fun? What would you like to change so you can do better at tournaments with the army?
    Then you should ignore all the feedback except the ones that make sense and overlap, and see if you can improve the game by implementing them. And, again just to be clear, this last statement wasn't joking or being sarcastic. It is how one writes good rules for a game.
  • I don't think the problem of the prince on eagle are the equipment options and his role is canibalized by other entry units

    - On a dragon you go PW and you have the beast for the rest. No other same role.


    - On WH you have many attacks. You can go either on divine attacks or S7.


    Those 2 characters allow you to have something to counter others CC enemy characters

    On eagle. You are almost forced to go hero's heart with him. And honnestly ... 5A S5 AP3 with fly. Kestrels achieve the same role.
    Same goes for the shapeshifter.
    They are not good enought to fight against CC characters.

    Both suffer a problem of not giving something else to the army.

    To solve that, pushing up the points of WH will not change something.
  • Razon wrote:

    I'm not sure who the survey is directed to, the tournament scene or the casual gamer?
    It's directed at players of SE who would like to talk about how the army is currently.

    As I said the old thread people were using to just generally discuss SE wasn't so relevant anymore since it was started addressing the an older version, hence a lot of the info in that thread was out of date to a new reader.

    Razon wrote:

    So, just in case someone missed my very sarcastic point; why beat around the bush with this (and all other similar) surveys?
    I didn't miss your sarcasm, though I didn't appreciate it a lot either. In my opinion sarcasm in this case isn't very constructive.

    The reason to have this thread (which isn't a survey) is just for SE players to have a place to generally discuss their experiences with the current version. Since the SE player base has quite a few very thoughtful and knowledgable posters, their thoughts have many times in the past highlighted things or had good ideas worth noting about the army that have been raised internally to be addressed, especially when they can be substantiated with data / facts.

    I don't really see it as beating about the bush, but rather as having a productive conversation about something we all share an interest in, which sometimes has positive practical effects.


    Razon wrote:

    Then you should ignore all the feedback except the ones that make sense and overlap, and see if you can improve the game by implementing them. And, again just to be clear, this last statement wasn't joking or being sarcastic. It is how one writes good rules for a game.
    I think the project does that pretty well already. Hence why we like hearing the thoughts of players, Very often those thoughts are good.


    duxbuse wrote:

    why is prince on eagle so bad? Mis matched base with kestrals, no kindreds, etc?
    I don't think he's bad at all. Although he doesn't hit as hard as a Wild Hunter he's very mobile (and can therefore pick his fights), and although his base doesn't match Kestrels, he fits with Eagles just fine. Like a lot of SE things, he just needs some finesse to work well.

    Data Analysis

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Hachiman Taro ().

  • I mean you're not required to like him. I do though, and some players (like smithF - check out his battle reports) got pretty good use out of him even before the update, where eagles both as units and mounts dropped in points.

    We'll see how he goes in the data over the period to the next update, but I'd just make the point all things don't have to be liked by all players for them to be good.

    Data Analysis

  • Imho it's hard to jusdge the update just with bare eyes, since it was only small balance changes. I'm confident that BT used data well and hence that these changes ar good balance-wise.

    Otherwise I stand as before. The balance between our units is quite good, and all feels pretty usable (even if some are less satisfactory or seems a bit hard to make good use of), and that's cool. Our character section however still feel weird, with toons of unused options.

    All in all, I think SE are in a fairly decent state.. I'm lokking forward to a more consequent design update (LAB ?), because pure balance updates aren't really interesting.
  • I'm enjoying it.
    I tend to play character light, as I don't find they add much to the army that another unit of the same points cost wouldn't do better, so I've not been using many of the cheaper magic items, though they do look appealing.
    My lists have more Forest Guard and Forest Rangers than before, I've been taking Sylvan Sentinels with Sylvan Blades which I never would have previously.
    Still (as ever) struggling against many strong individual model units, whether than be monsters, chariots or characters.
    Nothing but Sylvan Elves
  • Only played few games with the latest update; 2 with (almost) full treespirits list and one with mixed arms: Dragon Prince, Dancer bsb, Shamanism master, 20'ish dryads, 20'ish Heath Hunters, 6 Thickets, 13 Dancers, FEagle, 2×9 Sentinels. I like the mixed list better and won CC orientated SA easily. Just too much counters for SE here (hi armor, impacts, autohits and pyro for starters).

    Will start painting and playing them more this year even though I don't feel them as top dogs currently.
  • nantuko wrote:

    Going to Norwegian masters next weekend and I will be playing the following list:


    610 - Avatar of Nature, General
    330 - Thicket sheperd, BSB, oaken crown
    775 - Treefather Ancient, wizard master (Druidism), magical heirloom
    439 - 25 dryads
    456 - 26 dryads
    239 - 6 heath riders, Heath Hunters
    435 - Treefather
    500 - 5 thicket beasts, C
    615 - 6 thicket beasts, C
    100 - Great Eagle

    after having seen the meta I already regret I didn’t go with my full elves list so I expect an epic fail this time. The good news is that there are 3 SE over 31 players so at least the army is well represented.
    Funnily enough, pretty close to a list in the US masters, which I think player has been playing similar to for a while.

    PH SE.jpg

    Interesting to see how the new meta affects this kind of list vs more elves, as you mentioned.

    Data Analysis

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Hachiman Taro ().

  • @Hachiman Taro it is all about meta. In this tournament where I will sink tot he bottom there are 6x dread sphinxes, 3 or 4 ID and several cannons. My first match is against DH with cannon, rune crafted catapult, bomber, 7 guardians with flaming banner and engineer.

    I stand no chances unless he fluffs his dices or make mistakes. With elves I would have had shooting support to back up my lines
  • duxbuse wrote:

    why is prince on eagle so bad? Mis matched base with kestrals, no kindreds, etc?

    Aglion wrote:

    I don't think the problem of the prince on eagle are the equipment options and his role is canibalized by other entry units

    - On a dragon you go PW and you have the beast for the rest. No other same role.


    - On WH you have many attacks. You can go either on divine attacks or S7.


    Those 2 characters allow you to have something to counter others CC enemy characters

    On eagle. You are almost forced to go hero's heart with him. And honnestly ... 5A S5 AP3 with fly. Kestrels achieve the same role.
    Same goes for the shapeshifter.
    They are not good enought to fight against CC characters.

    Both suffer a problem of not giving something else to the army.

    To solve that, pushing up the points of WH will not change something.
    I made the opposite experience. I see no reason to bring a WH character or a fighty dragon as long as there are Eagle Princes.
    SE don't need blender characters because pretty much all our units are blender and are much more cost effective at shredding low to medium quality units. What we lack is a tool to deal with well defended single entities and that is where the surpreme mobility and of eagle princes shine. They can deliver very high strength high AP attacks to almost anywhere on the battlefield almost the way artillery does.

    Although I wish there were more reasons for me to use dragons and WHs, I feel that the fact different players feel so differently about the same choices is a good sign in general.


    My own experiences since the update are very mixed. I have run lists from one end of the spectrum (double eagle princes with maxed out character allowance) to MSU (with as little character investment as possible).
    I think there are a lot of viable list options for SE currently.
    On the other hand, I feel it is still nearly impossible to create a list that isn't hard countered. I suppose most armies have that problem, but I think it is still more severe for SE than it is for other factions.

    My biggest gripe with SE is still that I don't like our character design at all. In most of my lists I try to take the bare minimum: a Dryad Ancient as general and a Druid master for magic.
    Everytime I pick something else, I feel like I would rather spend those points on units. There are of course exceptions when it comes to very specialized builds. eg. double eagle princes, or heavy tree lists. And I think that that is kind of the problem. Our characters are so niche and specific, they need tailor-made lists to make them work. They don't seem to function as a tool to customize the main army. Instead they define the army that has to be build around them. It is also no secret that I loathe the anti-synergy that is the SE character design concept.

    Also almost all our magic items are still lackluster. The ones that are useful are just minor variations of common magic items (not in implemenation, but in effect), and the more unique ones are prohibitively expensive. SE characters (all elven characters in fact) really cannot work as worthwhile combatans if a significant portion of their magic item allowance goes towards a gimmick item. That means that if we want to use an item like the seeds or the mirror, we don't just pay the few points for the items, we also pay for the character that carries them, because he most likely is no longer a useful combatant.

    I am aware that my points of criticism were outside of the scope of the update. In that regard I think the update did a very good job in adjusting internal balance. The essence of a free mind rework is also likely to improve our strength externally. If external balance is better for us over all will depend on how the meta settles. I am carefully optimistic.


    The post actually reads much more negative than I intended. Overall I am very happy with the army and enjoy playing SE a lot. So good job and a big thank you to everyone involved. :)
  • Fleshbeast wrote:

    @Bogi @Herminard can you link the new thread? I’m interested to see how you guys talk this out.
    Toss us a thread @Bogi?

    Could you port the relevant bits @Hachiman Taro?
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.