Pinned DL Update - 2ed_2020_beta3 Discussion/Feedback

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  • edjuh2.0 wrote:

    Hmm I really like the flies quess I am the only one. I like that will keep playing them and I do find them really awesome.
    Have played 3 games with them now.. so its not a big sample but still. Got a good vibe of those units..

    But I am playing msu DL and maybe they just fit my playstyle

    I really want to know how it goes for you?
    So few dammage output, worse defense than brazen beasts, even not hard target, cant use broodmother with the cost and so few attacks, flamming attack destroy them, a model is just a generator of 4 toxic hit, yeah awesome ?
    From my point of view they are just more mobile but really cant find a place in my list. Too bad I like the models
  • I really like the book for the most part.

    The Bloat flies literally make no sense. They will average one st6 hit, die easy and barely do damage when they do die - which considering their ability, is their job?

    I love the models though, so I’ll run them once in a while.

    is there a way to get designer notes as to why this unit (and others) ended up like they did? I posted a couple times who the actual “committee” is, that designs and approves Units and it’s been ignored every time. Who’s names are on the DL book?
  • Broodmother on flies can be fixed with price. Since they are not very efficient in large squads, and brood mother require squad to be large engough to even have a chance at functioning, then price for additional models and brood mother must go down. As soon as it happen, and taking large squad with brood mother will stop to be point sink, we will see much more of them.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project
  • squalie_SK wrote:


    is there a way to get designer notes as to why this unit (and others) ended up like they did? I posted a couple times who the actual “committee” is, that designs and approves Units and it’s been ignored every time. Who’s names are on the DL book?
    I plan to do something like that, but not just now, but hopefully it can be done in time for the community attempt to figure out the units in this thread: How to Daemon Legions

    Then we can compare notes and see what have changed from the beginning and why.

    Designs is the allocated ADT members, approval has been RT.

    Who has been in these groups has changed quite a bit over time, some has made quite short burst of impacts other has been in for the whole run. But you can find some of the more prominent members in the Full Book Credit page, below is the ones I was responible to gather credits for at that time and these where the then that wanted to be part of the credit page then:
    Army Design Team:
    KeyserSoze, hasker, Haemoglobin, nightwun, Kolata, AlFiKa

    Army Community Support:
    Aenarion43, Ursa06,Kapten Kluns, IoRi78, ThewouldbePharaoh,

    Concept Design Support:
    There Is No Spoon, skipschnit, el rey,

    Rules Clarity Team:
    Eisenheinrich, Alzam,kisanis, lamronchak,

    Special Thanks:
    msu117, Giladis, Just_Flo, fjugin

    but a whole bunch more people out there all from the background team, and play testers to layout, HR, art etc has made a huge impact on the work.

    But for those that shuffled it all the way into Gold in the end the past year has been: skipschnit, IoRi78, nightwun, Kolata, Snarkhunter, me as team leader, fjugin as RT contact and Eisenheinrich and Eru to clean up rules and documents.

    LAB

    :DL: + :WDG:

    Lord of the Hobby


    Moderator on National Forums - Sweden
  • Kisscool wrote:

    edjuh2.0 wrote:

    Hmm I really like the flies quess I am the only one. I like that will keep playing them and I do find them really awesome.
    Have played 3 games with them now.. so its not a big sample but still. Got a good vibe of those units..

    But I am playing msu DL and maybe they just fit my playstyle
    I really want to know how it goes for you?
    So few dammage output, worse defense than brazen beasts, even not hard target, cant use broodmother with the cost and so few attacks, flamming attack destroy them, a model is just a generator of 4 toxic hit, yeah awesome ?
    From my point of view they are just more mobile but really cant find a place in my list. Too bad I like the models
    Great points and that's a long list of defenses against the Bloat Flies, but they are no more than for any other unit in the game. There are also very few armies that can have all of those counters together and be widespread. Queen's Guard maybe? Then the flies get their aegis from their shots. Same with dwarven artillery...if it's flaming, its magical (except for flame cannons). Most other flaming type attacks will be S3. If opponent's are targeting your 300 point unit rather than your 1000 point character, then that should be chalked up as a win. I use mine as chaff. 332 points for 12 HP, 6 S6 attacks that flies is awesome, compared to the 300 points for a non-flying Blazing Glory, or 370+ for the same HP in a Brazen Beast unit. They are not beat sticks, so if you are playing them as such, then you will be disappointed. They are highly specialized blockers. You can get them hard target if you want, or other manifestations. Also, don't count out the Toxic Attacks. They are not capped at 4. The Acid Blood Rule states: "For each Fortitude Save the model fails against Melee Attacks, the model that caused the wounding hit...." You want this unit to go into a unit that has many attacks. The minimal BF unit will most of the time be cheaper than the target and can generate a large number of toxic attacks back. These are the kamikazes of the army. They are not throw away units, but very specialized to cause the most damage or to give your forces more time to re-position. That is the design theory behind them. That is why the DEF is low...1. to keep eliteness and cost of the model down and 2. to allow for more hits on them to generate more attacks back (which are immediate attacks). They fly so that they can get into better positions to shield, block, threaten, etc. They were given a command in order to generate another attack, defend itself against an uber character, generate combat resolution, and to help prevent from getting march blocked. Their march rate (FLY) was increased in order to compensate for their larger footprint created by their base size.
    If a comparison is being made to Brazen Beasts, then looking at that unit, it is a beat stick on the charge. However, it can be chaffed. In round 2 of a combat or if the BB unit is charged, then the combat effectiveness of the unit is greatly reduced to just 2 S5 attacks and 1 S3 attack, which is very similar to the output of a BF with Acid Blood. So, with that downside of the BB unit, it tends to be zoned out by better opponents because you have to be able to be the charger and not the charge-ee. Therefore, the 2 units have different roles and play differently, and should even compliment each other. The Flies could be there to hold up and enemy so that the Beasts can get their charge off...true hammer and anvil. Do you take them against hordes...no, that's what Succubi are for. The army as a whole is subject to range and magic and those are the Achilles Heel of the army. Speed is to help limit how long they stay in that kill zone.
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

    The post was edited 1 time, last by skipschnit ().

  • I didn't see @AlFiKa post above since we were typing at the same time. In my reply, I gave a peek into the design thoughts behind the Bloat Flies. In another post above, I gave another peek into the Imps and some others.

    I think a Designer's Notes article would be awesome, and as @AlFiKa says, it wold be in the future as time allows. The DL TT is now scattered and with other projects and RL, it will be luxury, but not necessarily a necessity.
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

  • AlexCat wrote:

    @AlFiKa @skipschnit
    What about my question about burning wheel?
    It was always able to have been stomped from the versions I have. It has Vanguard which helps make it different from the WDG Skywheel. It is not suited for combat like a WDG version is, but a mode of transportation for a harbinger. It has several drawbacks built into it as well since the RT was pretty convinced that all fliers in the army were strong and a flying circus army was not possible.
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

  • skipschnit wrote:

    AlexCat wrote:

    @AlFiKa @skipschnit
    What about my question about burning wheel?
    It was always able to have been stomped from the versions I have. It has Vanguard which helps make it different from the WDG Skywheel. It is not suited for combat like a WDG version is, but a mode of transportation for a harbinger. It has several drawbacks built into it as well since the RT was pretty convinced that all fliers in the army were strong and a flying circus army was not possible.
    According to WODG devs - it is WODG wheel is not supposed to be combat capable. That is why it was hard nerfed (movement wise and in case of CL pricewise) after people started to use it with Chosen Lords instead of Sorerers.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project
  • Happy Aspid wrote:

    skipschnit wrote:

    AlexCat wrote:

    @AlFiKa @skipschnit
    What about my question about burning wheel?
    It was always able to have been stomped from the versions I have. It has Vanguard which helps make it different from the WDG Skywheel. It is not suited for combat like a WDG version is, but a mode of transportation for a harbinger. It has several drawbacks built into it as well since the RT was pretty convinced that all fliers in the army were strong and a flying circus army was not possible.
    According to WODG devs - it is WODG wheel is not supposed to be combat capable. That is why it was hard nerfed (movement wise and in case of CL pricewise) after people started to use it with Chosen Lords instead of Sorerers.
    Guess its just even less combat capable by surprise. Its min max we are talking about after all
  • Depends on how you do it, DL Burning Wheel has as easier time to get into initial position and to engage where it wants to, but WDG is better at later positions and while having less wounds has characters that can create a better defensive profile overall to allow it to dance around for a couple turns.

    but back to your question, yes, exceptions to being stomped when having size for it is valued quite high both in unique and complexity budget and pricing to bout, we thought it was enough to get it for the Dark Pulpit.

    That we got it for both Scythed Skywheel and War Dais in WDG is another matter.

    LAB

    :DL: + :WDG:

    Lord of the Hobby


    Moderator on National Forums - Sweden
  • skipschnit wrote:

    Kisscool wrote:

    edjuh2.0 wrote:

    Hmm I really like the flies quess I am the only one. I like that will keep playing them and I do find them really awesome.
    Have played 3 games with them now.. so its not a big sample but still. Got a good vibe of those units..

    But I am playing msu DL and maybe they just fit my playstyle
    I really want to know how it goes for you?So few dammage output, worse defense than brazen beasts, even not hard target, cant use broodmother with the cost and so few attacks, flamming attack destroy them, a model is just a generator of 4 toxic hit, yeah awesome ?
    From my point of view they are just more mobile but really cant find a place in my list. Too bad I like the models
    Great points and that's a long list of defenses against the Bloat Flies, but they are no more than for any other unit in the game. There are also very few armies that can have all of those counters together and be widespread. Queen's Guard maybe? Then the flies get their aegis from their shots. Same with dwarven artillery...if it's flaming, its magical (except for flame cannons). Most other flaming type attacks will be S3. If opponent's are targeting your 300 point unit rather than your 1000 point character, then that should be chalked up as a win. I use mine as chaff. 332 points for 12 HP, 6 S6 attacks that flies is awesome, compared to the 300 points for a non-flying Blazing Glory, or 370+ for the same HP in a Brazen Beast unit. They are not beat sticks, so if you are playing them as such, then you will be disappointed. They are highly specialized blockers. You can get them hard target if you want, or other manifestations. Also, don't count out the Toxic Attacks. They are not capped at 4. The Acid Blood Rule states: "For each Fortitude Save the model fails against Melee Attacks, the model that caused the wounding hit...." You want this unit to go into a unit that has many attacks. The minimal BF unit will most of the time be cheaper than the target and can generate a large number of toxic attacks back. These are the kamikazes of the army. They are not throw away units, but very specialized to cause the most damage or to give your forces more time to re-position. That is the design theory behind them. That is why the DEF is low...1. to keep eliteness and cost of the model down and 2. to allow for more hits on them to generate more attacks back (which are immediate attacks). They fly so that they can get into better positions to shield, block, threaten, etc. They were given a command in order to generate another attack, defend itself against an uber character, generate combat resolution, and to help prevent from getting march blocked. Their march rate (FLY) was increased in order to compensate for their larger footprint created by their base size.If a comparison is being made to Brazen Beasts, then looking at that unit, it is a beat stick on the charge. However, it can be chaffed. In round 2 of a combat or if the BB unit is charged, then the combat effectiveness of the unit is greatly reduced to just 2 S5 attacks and 1 S3 attack, which is very similar to the output of a BF with Acid Blood. So, with that downside of the BB unit, it tends to be zoned out by better opponents because you have to be able to be the charger and not the charge-ee. Therefore, the 2 units have different roles and play differently, and should even compliment each other. The Flies could be there to hold up and enemy so that the Beasts can get their charge off...true hammer and anvil. Do you take them against hordes...no, that's what Succubi are for. The army as a whole is subject to range and magic and those are the Achilles Heel of the army. Speed is to help limit how long they stay in that kill zone.
    Some fair points there. I aggree on their big advantage on the flight part. It seems it is just not enough for me.

    But in all fairness :

    * dont forget all these non magical : Forge repeaters (str5), flaming standard (any Str) and breath attack (Str4 most of the time).
    * 300pts of a chaffing unit would be too much for me to include it
    * maybe toxic attack is not capped : but in most case it will be 4 per model. Only the last model may generate a bit more. You have 3 model, you take 10 wounds = 10 toxic. Then your last model next turn will take maybe half the wound (less frontage) : 5 more toxic hit. Ok 15 hits for 12 wounds. If at least we could raise some, but well.
    * "They are highly specialized blockers" : def 2 res4 blockers ? Lemures are blockers. Hoarders are blockers. Or I dont see what you mean with this sentence

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Kisscool ().

  • They appear to be good at monster hunting too. 4 models including a camp, upgraded with unhinging jaw will do an average of 4 wounds on a R6 3+as monster (exlcuding the occasional toxic wound) and with 16hp they can easily tank a monster's attacks.

    They can also effectively deal with small and medium cavalry units, sometimes even not caring if they get charged.

    Of course soft units like archers or bunkers are easy prey for the flies with their impressive s6 stomp attacks.

    Last but not least, does your opponent run a 1+as cowboy? Land the flies in front of him in 2x2 formation to block his los, and if he engages let's see how much damage he can withstand from retaliation of cutting through 16hp and the s6 ap3 attacks.

    The unit is not a clear power choice, but a very usefull one with a lot of roles to pick on a battlefield (I call that balance). Roles that it can define itself thanks to its lateral and backward mobility. I can definately find good use for one unit in my lists, which is satisfying because i love the models.
  • I play 4 with champ and the unhinging jaw upgrade. It works really well. If you are lacking ap in the army they are the tool (besides some GD). 9 str 6 att is nothing to sneeze att (especially if you hunt your targets so that you get reroll to wound). They are the picks against elite stuff, comboys, monstrous cav /infantry. They dont wnat to go in hordes but thats the succubi role... the toxic hits are a bog bonus..
  • Donotask wrote:

    "Sentinel with iron husk + strixian Spirit is t7? Thanks"

    In my point of view no.

    Iron husk states that
    The model’s Resilience is set to 6

    In principle "set to" means it cannot be changed in any way.

    all the best

    Paulo

    Eisenheinrich wrote:

    skipschnit wrote:

    Asfor the R7 Sentinel, I do not believe that was the intent, otherwise I’m sure it’s price would be more than the Scourge. However, nothing in the rule, manifestation, or unit entry has changed; so I’m not sure the interpretation of it should have changed either. It seems like the key word “Always” was left out, but maybe it wasn’t. It doesn’t bother me to have that work out that way as it’s an expensive combo for that model. However, rules questions aren’t my forte. @Eisenheinrich
    Can't comment on RAI, but yeah, RAW that's how it works ;) .
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

  • john doc wrote:

    Last but not least, does your opponent run a 1+as cowboy? Land the flies in front of him in 2x2 formation to block his los, and if he engages let's see how much damage he can withstand from retaliation of cutting through 16hp and the s6 ap3 attacks.
    Could it be? ....a use for that giant base size has been found? :)

    Donotask wrote:

    In my point of view no.

    Iron husk states that
    The model’s Resilience is set to 6

    In principle "set to" means it cannot be changed in any way.
    But in other items/rules in other books they always have the additional rule actually written in:
    Such as Destiny's Call: "Armour set to 3 and Cannot be improved beyond this".

    So if it does not actually have that extra rule written, then it's pretty clear it can be improved.

    Glittering Robes in HBE is another one with the rule actually written in.