Cultists Beta January 2020 feedback

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    • Is there any rule anywhere, though, stating you can't summon a Battle Platform (or a Character, for that matter) inside a unit ?
      Haven't seen any.
      Not in the rule for « Summoned Units », anyway.

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    • Ghiznuk wrote:

      Is there any rule anywhere, though, stating you can't summon a Battle Platform (or a Character, for that matter) inside a unit ?
      Haven't seen any.
      Not in the rule for « Summoned Units », anyway.
      <
      13.K.d Summoned Units
      (...) Summoned models must be placed at least 1″ away from other units and from Impassable Terrain.
      >
    • The inclusion of

      Scurrying Veil (30 pts) - Standard Height models only. The bearer gains Tiny (see Rat Swarms), and its March Rate is set to 20”

      has created one situation where, the dishonnored faction within the cultists creates a overrule by the the following:

      The Dishonoured
      ● Resilience set to 4
      ● -1 Agility
      ● -1” Advance Rate
      ● March Rate set t o 9”*
      *The March Rate of Possessed and Daemon Symbiotes is set to 12” instead

      Following the priority rules on page 17 of the rule book:
      When several modifiers within a group are to be applied to a value (e.g. a Characteristic value), apply them in the order that results in the lowest value.

      So my question is: Is it intentional that the dishonoured are excluded from using scurrying veil ?
    • Oh yeah, sorry, I was with the idea that it was the Vermin profile, but yeah, same idea, we need to avoid using the word « set » as it's not meant to be a Characteristic Modifier but just a different profile to start with.

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    • Something else,

      I think that it should be clearified at which point in the siphon the veil phase the deamons are being summoned. Summoning deamons that have channel, in my opinion should not contribute more veil tokens in the turn they are summoned. (think imps, and hope harevesters). If you think im wrong please let me know.

      heres the part from the main rule book Page 54.

      Display Spoiler

      Siphon the Veil
      The Active Player creates a new pool of Veil Tokens that will last until their next Siphon the Veil phase.
      [*] Add the number of Veil Tokens left in their previous Veil Token pool
      [*] Add the number of Veil Tokens given by the Flux Card drawn this Player Turn
      [*] Add Veil Tokens from other sources, such as Channel (see “Channel (X)”, page 93)


      Up to 12 Veil Tokens can now be removed from the pool to be converted into Magic Dice by the Active Player. For each full 3 Veil Tokens that were removed, the Active Player adds a single Magic Dice to their Magic Dice pool. Up to 4 Magic Dice may be added to the Active Player’s pool this way.


      And the part of demonic summon.

      Display Spoiler

      Daemonic Summon
      During Siphon the Veil, each non-Fleeing model with Daemonic Summon may perform a single Daemonic Summon :
      1. Choose a unit from the Summoned Daemons Army Category on your Army List.
      2. Discard a number of Veil Tokens from your Veil Token pool corresponding to the chosen unit's Point Cost
      3. divided by 200, rounding fractions up. During the owner’s Player Turn 1, only 2 Veil Tokens may be discarded
      for Daemonic Summon. Otherwise, a maximum of 6 Veil Tokens may be discarded for Daemonic Summon per
      Player Turn.

      The chosen unit is deployed in a legal formation fully within 12” of the model that performs the Daemonic
      Summon. All models must be placed at least 1′′ away from other units and from Impassable Terrain. If the
      whole unit cannot be deployed, then no models can be deployed.


      In the demonic summon i think it should also be clarified that it only works in the active players turn, otherwise it is possible to summon in the opponents turn aswell.

      Cherios
    • Mick Boe wrote:

      In the demonic summon i think it should also be clarified that it only works in the active players turn, otherwise it is possible to summon in the opponents turn aswell.
      Yes, I have already warned of this.

      Also, thank you for this observation that « during Siphon » needs to be precised !

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      GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
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    • Mick Boe wrote:

      I think that it should be clearified at which point in the siphon the veil phase the deamons are being summoned. Summoning deamons that have channel, in my opinion should not contribute more veil tokens in the turn they are summoned. (think imps, and hope harevesters). If you think im wrong please let me know.
      It is intentional that you can do it at any time you want (in the Active phase!). RAW this means summoned units with Channel can contribute to additional Veil Tokens, right @Eisenheinrich ?
    • Krokz wrote:

      Mick Boe wrote:

      I think that it should be clearified at which point in the siphon the veil phase the deamons are being summoned. Summoning deamons that have channel, in my opinion should not contribute more veil tokens in the turn they are summoned. (think imps, and hope harevesters). If you think im wrong please let me know.
      It is intentional that you can do it at any time you want (in the Active phase!). RAW this means summoned units with Channel can contribute to additional Veil Tokens, right @Eisenheinrich ?
      Imo the wording regarding the timing of daemonic summon is not as precise as it should be.

      Here's my take on current RAW:

      I agree that you could argue that both effects
      a) Daemonic Summon
      and
      b) creating the new veil token pool and converting veil tokens into magic dice
      can be considered as happening during Siphon the Veil, which means that the rules for simultaneous effects apply, which means that you could perform a) before b).

      However, the veil token pool a player creates during Siphon the Veil only lasts "until their next Siphon the Veil phase". This means that if you decide to perform a) before b), there is no veil token pool at that moment (because the old pool ended with the start of Siphon the Veil, and the new veil token pool will only be generated when performing b) ). The rules for daemonic summon tell you to "Discard a number of Veil Tokens from your Veil Token pool" though, which you cannot do as there is no veil token pool to discard tokens from.


      So, TLDR, no, you cannot summon daemons before channeling and generating magic dice ;) .


      We should discuss the rest in RCT internal.
    • Had a three game tourney last sunday with this new cultists version.

      485 - Cult Leader General, Master of Ritual, Wizard Master, Occultism, Gem of Faiths Tithe, Scurrying Veil
      350 - Cult Leader Wizard Master, Evocation, Fiendish Snares
      207 - 19 Cultists Unholy conduit, Music
      207 - 19 Cultists Unholy conduit, Music
      205 - 19 Cultists Infiltrators, music, Champion, Throwing Weapons
      205 - 19 Cultists Infiltrators, music, Champion, Throwing Weapons
      105 - 15 Cultists
      197 - 19 Cultists Champion, Eldrich Tome, Music
      340 - Profane Idol Heretic Golem
      180 - 10 Possessed Paired Weapons, Red Haze, Champion
      180 - 10 Possessed Paired Weapons, Red Haze, Champion
      170 - 5 Eidolons
      325 - Blazing Glory Bronze Backbone
      210 - Titanslayer Chariot Divining Snout
      788 - 6 Hoarders Mirrored Scales, Chitinous Scales, Champion, Banner, Music
      345 - Treshing Engine Legion, Roaming Hands


      Had good old skullpass goblins as Cultists as they have hoods! Possessed were possessed Gnashers :). Giant as idol, no surprise. And daemons.. well themselves.

      Full tournament data is here:
      gowarhead.com/2020/03/t9a-impe…results-and-coverage.html

      ID 17
      SA 15
      OK 9

      This new version felt lot better. new summoning worked and that turn one, 2 veils summon was really needed. it gave me critical Zoner in every game. New items helped a lot. While the Gem was maybe usefull once. Scurrying veil vas kinda OP and the Snares did inflict a lot of damage, which helped me later. It actually did 3 wounds on Alpha carno, saving my other flank.

      On games I got a bit extra leway as no played had played against cultists before and SA player at least played prehaps too carefully, being wary of the aces I can come up from my sleeve. And indeed it is much more potent now to flank with cultists and summoned daemons. I would really like to see other players try this iteration out, as I feel it is now army you can even push if given room.
    • Hello everyone,

      this is my first post on this forum, nice to meet you all. :)

      I have been in love with the idea of the Cultists as an army since I saw the army book on the download page. Having now played quite a few games with them and discussing them with my friends (who have much experience in wargaming and 9th Age), I would like to share my detailed feedback.

      GENERAL FEEDBACK

      After all the games played I can say, the Cultists feel reaaaally cool, but reaaaaally underwhelming. They lack a lot of power.

      ARMY RULES

      Sacrificial Offerings

      This is quite a cool rule, it feels good as a theme to be able to dispose of some cheap models to empower your spells. I do not know if the ratio of 1 cultist = +1 for the role is good enough. Maybe 1 cultist = +2, since it is already limited to once per unit and phase.

      Inquisitor

      This rule is really... umpf. Meh to say the least. You grant your opponent hatred against anything, including Daemons, to get on the other hand… battle focus only against him? Why? The only ones benefiting at least a little bit are the Possessed. Cultists (Core Unit) practically never want to engage in any melee combat, given the fact that they are naked dudes with Off/Def 2 Str 3 AP 0. Oh, I forgot, they even get Battle Focus themselves when charging.
      Looking at other army books with their pages and pages of cool extra rules, the fact that cultists can kill themselves and give the strongest enemy character Hatred for free is really underwhelming.

      Cultists also get to always pick their side of the field, but well, that mostly means your opponent can choose to deploy everything and go first and overrun you before any Daemon has been summoned.

      Daemonic Summon
      This rework in the latest edition was really good. Having it be done in Siphon the Veil feels more intuitive, summoning from turn 1 on is direly needed the way that Cultists look right now. Maybe it would not be bad to have the possibility to have some summoned Daemons on the field from the beginning on. Like up to 15% of the Army can already be summoned at the beginning? Just like the WDG Hellmaw that can have some portals open from the beginning. Apart from lacking a lot of power output on their own, against armies like Ogres, that close the distance quickly and can always go first turn if they want to, they really overrun you within a few turns. And taking also into account that you can’t attack with Daemons until your own next turn.

      SPECIAL ITEMS
      We really need some more special items. There are a lot of ideas that could really be cool, maybe some unholy blade that could be given to the cult leader, or some enchantments for the symbiont. Go with any nuance of unholy and it’s nice.
      The Fiendish Snares are a cool and fun item. Situational, but fun. I wouldn’t mind it being more expensive and being able to choose terrain that is anywhere, especially given the fact that this is all still playtesting material.

      Why did the Veil Walker have to leave? That was a really nice addition to the Cult Leader.

      Soul Ledger feels really good, both as a theme and in terms of mechanics, even in death all the units still serve the Cult and the power to summon Daemons.

      Scurrying Veil: Enlighten me please, who is supposed to benefit from this item? (No cynicism, seriously, I would love to know what the idea behind the addition was. Who in this army is meant to run around solo?)

      Gem of Faith’s Tithe: Being able to sacrifice your Champion (So between 23 and 25 Points, plus… the champion) for some more range and a different position for one cast? That is way too pricey. Looking at you, Wandering Familiar.

      Locket of Sunna: Cool addition, offers some good protection for the Cult Leader.

      Lifeforce Talisman: Good when playing Thaumaturgy, but do we really need more ways to kill our own models?

      CHARACTERS
      Cult Leader: A cool model, I like the Master of the Ritual, but other than that he is really lacking identity, being basically the generic Wizard of any army out there. I feel that as a Cult LEADER he should be limited to 1 model and kick some more a**. Make him a better wizard, some more range on his spells, or one extra spell, a bound spell, an aegis (just to name some possibilities), one extra channel. I feel like someone who is able to lead a whole cult of unholiness should really be a force to reckon with.

      Then, if need be, you could add a second wizard as the generic wizard template (call him Cult Prophet or something like that).

      Daemon Symbiote: This model is really cool, mixing items with one manifestation feels nice. Guiding Manifestation would of course be nice, but not necessary. The bigger problem I see is that he lacks a place to be, the Possessed die really quick with their Def 2 and being supernal he gets torn apart. Maybe a guiding manifestation could help this problem or fixing the Possessed problem.
      … well.. are there really only 2 Characters? We could really need some more substance on that part. Maybe a Cult Assassin that could join up with some Infiltrators, some mounts like maybe a Hellhound as a mount for the Daemons Symbiote, some sort of Altar for the Cult Leader that they carry into battle?

      CORE
      Cultists: This unit is okayish and cool. They are disposable and can be used to fuel spells and penetrate the Veil to summon Daemons. All cool, but why has this unit Devastating Charge (Battle Focus)? They can’t buy weapons, have no armour and are unstable. Why would they ever fight?

      Infiltrators is cool, but only really for the cult leader. Throwing Weapons also cool, but with Str 3 AP 0 okayish. Better than nothing. Although I feel like an unholy Cult should not be throwing some axes at you, why not give them an okayish or decent shooting weapon that is more magical? Something like the Imps Energy Bolts.

      Unholy Conduit: Basically mandatory, because otherwise you are limited to your Cult Leader and the Altar for all the summoning.

      Eldritch Tome: You really have enough spells in this army with both Characters being Wizards, the Altar and the possibility to summon Daemons that could in theory cast more spells. On the other hand, pretty cool idea to give one cultist some more power because of an ancient tome he possesses. Maybe there are other ideas than the spear of infinity.

      … Yet again, are there no more Core units? Am I really supposed to fill my Core with 3 pts/model Cultists that can’t do anything? Hm… and thinking that I need to fill up my Core with Daemons… why not play Daemons in the first place?

      I really think Possessed should become a Core unit and there would be another unit direly needed. Maybe a shooting unit, maybe something a bit beefier. It is, of course, clear to me that you can summon Lemures, Myrmidon etc. but I feel like you should not be so direly dependent on your summons.

      SPECIAL

      Profane Idol: Without exceptions, in my opinion and experience so far, this unit is awesome. A supernal giant with aegis instead of rage, beefy, strong, totally worth its points. I really like it and the possibility to customize it according to the needs. Especially because in my army I have two big animated Cthulhu statues that march into battle with the cultists.

      Possessed: Ay.. I think this unit is one with enormous potential, but yet one the most problematic. Off / Def 2 for what is basically the elite infantry of the army? Uff. It at least goes up to 3/3 with the Kin Slayers, but still not very impressive. They fight as well as Skeletons. The manifestations to choose from leave basically no other choice than Chitinous Scales, as Red Haze is hell of a gamble on a unit with many attacks and more strength than resilience and Centipede Legs prevents the Symbiote from joining in order for them to benefit from it. Making them Core and maybe raise Off/Def by 1 would help them and I think they need other Manifestations, as Red Haze is really dangerous and enough of this army already kills itself, and Centipede Legs can be achieved by taking the Wayward Children archetype. Suggestions: Venom Sacs, Smothering Coils, Unhinging Jaw, Bronze Backbone. Given that this unit is supposed to make up a lot of combat power of this army, it could really use some pow pow.
      Oh and please, let them buy a Standard. They are supernal after all, Combat Score matters.

      Ritual Altar: This is a really nice idea, kind of mandatory to be able to get your daemons on the field. I feel like one damage and one buff spell could be nice, or maybe Scrying so you can position your army around it and have it be protected by the altar. Also, some customization would be cool. Maybe select two out of X given spells? The Pentagram of Pain is nice, but either you position your altar on the other side of the map where it summons Daemons into the nothingness or you will never want to use the higher variant as it will nuke the living hell out of your own cultists with that 24” aura universal damage. Heck, this army really wants to end itself.
      Maybe even make it a War Platform so it can be joined by some more Cultists to give it more meat shield and more HP to sacrifice FOR THE GLORY OF THE DARK GODS.

      Overall, don’t get me wrong, I really like the Cultists. I would love to have more variety on them so they don’t feel like playing a worse version of the Daemons anymore, but instead a cool own army that makes use of some Daemons to enhance their field power.
    • New

      @Sidereo Thank you for detailed and well thought of feedback!

      The issue of options is sadly one we have to tackle with changes, as we will not add more units. Already this army is a bit of special a scenario on its own.

      Lot of great ideas we shall consider for the next upgrade. Though canno't promise anything yet.

      Some answers I can try to give.
      Scurrying Veil. For cult leader. able to deploy in flank with infiltrators. Summon daemon unit, and Quick exit. Or when army needs short range spells just change unit. or evacuate. Was super useful in 2/3 games for me.

      I have other opinions on the Red Haze. It is so big boost on the damage with only few casualties (also evocation and divination have re-roll spells) that I think it should cost more. The legs and the movement on the symbiote was good point too high opportunity cost, missed that myself.

      The 2x range works on the other version too. 48" damage spell is not bad, but the cool option is ofc are effect.

      Once again thanks :). keep toughts coming.