Cultists Beta January 2020 feedback

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    The brand new army book for Infernal Dwarves is finally available, along with a small surprise! Remember that it is a beta version, and provide us your feedback!

    • New

      Krokz wrote:

      Tyran wrote:

      Possessed are strong, but off def 2 is really disabling, they are elit cultist so why they don't have 3?
      Just an explanation. Daemons don't know how to use physical tools like weapons very good, even controlling a physical body feels very alien to them, this is representing in their low Weapon Skill. Imagine how crude a child is with his body, only after prolonged exposure to the world neural pathways are formed and moving his body becomes natural to a person.With Possessed they let Daemons inside them before the battle or a day before, while a Daemon Symbiote is here for years, sometimes even decades (hence Symbiote) and has higher weapon skill because he is used to the physical world.

      Don't forget 'normal' stats for Cultists are S3 and 1 Attack. So Possessed (or Devil Monks as in fluff text) exchange strength and speed for crudeness. This makes for a very unique elite infantry: low weapon skill, strong physical force.
      Don't forget that daemons care little for own survival. I dont know the nature of their relations with host, but if body dies - daemon will just return back in hell.
      DH - main
      WODG - secondary
      OK - reborn be my childhood army
      DL - side project
    • New

      Squee wrote:

      I personally don't see the value of OS/DS 2 -> 3, but its worth noting you can get this via the Kinslayers species.
      Yes you can, but that does limit you in terms of base size. I personally think that the two base options are actually more limiting than offering choices. Because at the end of the day, if you want to use your cool models, you are limited to the bases that they are on.

      I would actually recommend/like to discuss two things:


      1.) Untie Base Size and Archetypes. This gives you all the freedom of list building that you need.

      2.) If that is absolutely unthinkable (OMG a dwarf on a 25x25 base, heresy!), then maybe it would be worthwhile to discuss whether the Archetype system brings a whole lot to the table and is worth keeping. Just give the option to use either 25x25 or 20x20 Bases for any model with Pledged to Darkness. Edit: And, of course, every model would need to use the same base size throughout the army.

      I personally do not see a ton of value in it, given that my entire core basically does not benefit a lot from it cause Cultists don't wanna fight.


      I know that it was what was initially voted for, but I do not see why that needs to be reason to stubbornly keep it if it does not perform as thought.
      cuncta fluunt
    • New

      I always assumed the Archetypes were there so people could use their existing models as cultists.

      The +1 OS/DS on kinslayers is there so you don't just feel bad about nerfing yourself with bases for example.
      I think ideally the Archetypes would be completely even in power level and not really any sort of a thinker per se.

      Its a good idea, execution is reasonable for the most part (as I mentioned, some weaponry on core helps with that + other concerns) but even without rules tweaks it can be sorted on a point adjustment basis.
    • New

      To be honest - it would be easier to lift the restriction for same archetype per army, with condition that in order to join the unit, characters must have same archetype. Or since there are only two types of units (cultists and possessed) - just restrict archetype per type of unit.
      DH - main
      WODG - secondary
      OK - reborn be my childhood army
      DL - side project

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Happy Aspid ().

    • New

      Sidereo wrote:

      Yes, that is the reason why there are two base types, but you could also argue that there could simply be the option to choose either 20x20 or 25x25 for all your Pledged to Darkness models, without any archetypes.
      Why would anyone voluntarily choose 25mm from a gameplay perspective?

      I personally think Kinslayers is a downgrade as it is, and that's when it comes with +os/ds for free
      But at least with the +os/ds, you don't feel totally screwed over that you want to use your WDG or similar models
      (its also worth noting characters on 25mms can join summoned deamons in a less awkward fashion)
      So there are probably some very specific lists where its worthwhile.


      Happy Aspid wrote:

      To be honest - it would be easier to lift the restriction for same archetype per army, with condition that in order to join the unit, characters must have same archetype. Or since there are only two types of units (cultists and possessed) - just restrict archetype per type of unit.

      I assume they did this to 1) reduce complexity, and 2) make it easier visually (with supplementary armies, its likely that models used won't be quite right unless someone specifically builds the army)

      There's quite a lot of layers on both Cultists and Possessed, as well as the Symbiote.
    • New

      Squee wrote:

      Why would anyone voluntarily choose 25mm from a gameplay perspective?
      Because, as you later said yourself

      Squee wrote:

      with supplementary armies, its likely that models used won't be quite right unless someone specifically builds the army


      So you would of course choose 25mm in case you have a lot of awesome 25mm models. I don't know about you all guys, but my minis are glued to their bases and I can't swap that for every game.
      cuncta fluunt
    • New

      I'd always pick 25mm over 20mm bases.

      It's a modeling thing. More space is better.

      Additionally, 25mm is what Oathmark uses and what wdg barbarians use, so has more compatibility.

      Regarding the rules for cultists, I've never even considered the 20mm ones to be real options.
      My army Wip blogs:
      Knights of Nethys (WDG) | Tanks and such (EoS)

      Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177
    • New

      @Squee: I never said that and would never. I might have phrased wrong what I wanted to convey.

      @Chronocide: Although most of my miniatures are 25mm bases (RPG minis and Daemons), I purposefully went for 20mm with the cultists, as my cultist models looked weird on 25mm bases. Yes, yes, I specifically built Cultist units cause I found them to be so cool. :D
      cuncta fluunt
    • New

      Chronocide wrote:

      I'd always pick 25mm over 20mm bases.

      It's a modeling thing. More space is better.

      Additionally, 25mm is what Oathmark uses and what wdg barbarians use, so has more compatibility.

      Regarding the rules for cultists, I've never even considered the 20mm ones to be real options.
      I think we are mostly talking past each other at this point ;)

      I'm building custom cultists at the moment too, on 20mms
    • New

      Squee wrote:

      Tyran wrote:

      14-6 for the cultists, I have the objectif so i win 17-3.

      My opinion on the L.A; Very fun to play, but a bit weak I think:
      I'm confused by this part of the feedback. Are you saying opponent played badly and you won an uphill game?
      I personally don't see the value of OS/DS 2 -> 3, but its worth noting you can get this via the Kinslayers species.
      My opponent made a big mistake by allowing me a 8" (on dice) charge for 2 of his unit at the first turn. I tried and I pass the 2. It's a bit lucky for me, but it make the game cause of KoE MUST charge first.

      OS/DS 2 or 3 make all the difference, for example, when his Grail Knights charge my possessed, he pass a druidism spell who make -1 in OS/DS. Grail knight have OS/DS 5, me 1 with the spell so he hit me on 2+ and me on 5+. I have a lot of luck in this fight cause I make 50% of 5 and 6 on my hit roll and he fail lot of save roll. But in normal time, i think that i should loose my unit on this action.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Tyran ().

    • New

      Another battle report:

      youtube.com/watch?v=C-pe4KktWJY

      Possessed are - in my view - too strong for their point costs, though necessary to keep the opponent from walking over your army in turns 1-2. I think a debuff to them would ruin the playstyle, unless the army is compensated with smaller units that can act as universal delayers/combat threats that start on the board.

      Evocation/Divination does work really well with a unit whose only downside is off/def 2...

      On another note, if at all possible, it would be highly appreciable if some daemon units could drop in 5-10 points to get them to the 200 pts cap (core daemon 10-squads, titanslayer chariot) just so you can summon them for 1 veil token and summon 2 units in the first turn of the game.
    • New

      Thank you for all the feedback.
      We are trying to make a quick Cultist update before Gold release in Autumn based on most disliked things and reported issues. Some quick update discussions we have currently:
      - Remove Nobody Expects ... AWSR or merge it with The Enemy Within.
      - Allow for larger Cultists units, up to 35, allow Spears on them
      - Increase cost of Possessed, replace Movement Manifestation with Bronze Backbone. Option for Banner (not Magical!)
      - Rework Ritual Altar rules
      - Replace Locket of Sunna item for something more useful to the army.
    • New

      Krokz wrote:

      Thank you for all the feedback.
      We are trying to make a quick Cultist update before Gold release in Autumn based on most disliked things and reported issues. Some quick update discussions we have currently:
      - Remove Nobody Expects ... AWSR or merge it with The Enemy Within.
      - Allow for larger Cultists units, up to 35, allow Spears on them
      - Increase cost of Possessed, replace Movement Manifestation with Bronze Backbone. Option for Banner (not Magical!)
      - Rework Ritual Altar rules
      - Replace Locket of Sunna item for something more useful to the army.
      Not sure if possessed need Bronze Backbone. Quite useless manifestation after it's nerf. And very expensive one. Something like digestive vomit, unhinging jaw, piercing spike or brimstone secretions would be much better. But I don't know what restrictions are in effect here.

      PS: Poison manifestation on them can be really interesting, for we have no proper guiding manifestation at our disposal, and there almost no units with default access to posion.
      DH - main
      WODG - secondary
      OK - reborn be my childhood army
      DL - side project

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Happy Aspid ().

    • New

      Krokz wrote:

      Thank you for all the feedback.
      ....

      - Increase cost of Possessed, replace Movement Manifestation with Bronze Backbone. Option for Banner (not Magical!)
      ....
      Not sure if this would be the way to go, hatred on these guys omits the need for magic support alltogether, I would much rather see something like:
      - venom sacs
      - horns of hubris
      - mesmerising plumage

      For some more varied building options to allow for resp. better paired weapons builds, some vanguard fun and to improve the off deff of the kinslayers to a level where it gets interesting to take the upgrade (off 3 with -def for units in B2B)

      Oh and I didn't mention it, but THANKS for making this content and regarding the comments :D
    • New

      Ehakir wrote:



      On another note, if at all possible, it would be highly appreciable if some daemon units could drop in 5-10 points to get them to the 200 pts cap (core daemon 10-squads, titanslayer chariot) just so you can summon them for 1 veil token and summon 2 units in the first turn of the game.
      Rather than adjusting points, what about adding a veil token summoning cost stat to each unit?

      Then have the stat increase when models are added to the unit.

      Basically the same thing as presently, but would be easier to balance the veil token cost for specific DL units than adjust the point value or unit size of DL units. Also easier on the players to not need MATH as often.
      My army Wip blogs:
      Knights of Nethys (WDG) | Tanks and such (EoS)

      Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177
    • New

      Happy Aspid wrote:

      Not sure if possessed need Bronze Backbone. Quite useless manifestation after it's nerf. And very expensive one.
      Huh, I feel completely different about this - it sounds like the best possible option to me? These guys hit HARD when they hit, so getting them to connect makes them absolutely brutal. I think I'd take it over scales if it was available at the moment at the same cost as the other manifestations.

      Krokz wrote:

      Thank you for all the feedback.
      We are trying to make a quick Cultist update before Gold release in Autumn based on most disliked things and reported issues. Some quick update discussions we have currently:
      - Remove Nobody Expects ... AWSR or merge it with The Enemy Within.
      - Allow for larger Cultists units, up to 35, allow Spears on them
      - Increase cost of Possessed, replace Movement Manifestation with Bronze Backbone. Option for Banner (not Magical!)
      - Rework Ritual Altar rules
      - Replace Locket of Sunna item for something more useful to the army.
      These all sound like a step in a positive direction to me.
      Careful you don't overnerf the Possessed; each + ppm is one less model per unit for the same cost, and for better or worse the army does rely on them.
      I would suggest something like Wandering Familiar to replace the Locket - you need a +range on spells item to make occultism worthwhile.