Cultists Beta January 2020 feedback

    This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

    The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is available! You can read all about it in the news.

    The brand new army book for Infernal Dwarves is finally available, along with a small surprise! Remember that it is a beta version, and provide us your feedback!

    • I collected some ideas for the Cultists over the past days. These are obviously not perfect, but I would love to discuss them. I see way more work needed for the Cultists than to simply change some details and costs and so on, and there is a lot of complexity that could be reduced cause it does not offer that much. Well enough said, here are some ideas:


      _______________________________

      Armory:
      Tainted Blades
      The bearer gains Poison Attacks and +1 AP.

      Dark Fire Forged

      Weapon Enchantment: The bearer gains +1 Att and has their AP always set to 0. When rolling to save a wound from a hit caused by a weapon with this enchantment, a natural roll of “1”, “2”, “3” and “4” is always considered failed.

      Brimstone Crown
      Artefact: Supernal units within the commanding presence of the bearer may reroll failed Discipline tests.


      Hereditary Spell: My life for the Maelstrom
      5+ {11+} 24” {6” Aura} Augment The target unit, that must be supernal, raises D3 health points. Afterwards, you must select a unit with Pledged to Darkness within 12” of the caster. That unit suffers a number of hits equal to the sum of HP raised by this spell that wound automatically with no save of any kind allowed. If no such unit is available, the caster suffers these hits.

      Calling of the Veil (replaces Cult Archetypes)

      Cults arise anywhere in the world in every society. Instead of who they are, for a Cultist it is way more important whom they worship. Every army of Cultists must choose a cult, and thus deities of the Maelstrom, to pledge allegiance to. In addition, you may choose the base size for models with Pledged to Darkness: either 20x20mm or 25x25mm. Every model with Pledged to Darkness must have the same base size throughout the army.

      Cult of the Veil

      Worhsips Father Chaos + Nukuja
      The Cult Leader gains: Master of the Eldritch: Gains another spell, gains +3”/6” range for spellcasting. Units with Pledged to Darkness that are joined by at least one Character gain Magic Resistance (1).

      Preferred Daemons: Veil Serpents, Hope Harvester


      Cult of Slaughter

      Worships Savar + Vanadra
      Daemon Symbiote gains access to a second manifestation (must be from Wrath or Pride). The blessing of Savar lets the Symbiote act as a sort of BSB for Supernal units. Units with Pledged to Darkness that are joined by at least one Character gain Hatred.

      Preferred Daemons: Blazing Glory, Eidolons


      Cult of Sin

      Worships Akaan, Kulima and Sugulag
      All characters increase their item limits by 25 points. The Daemon Symbiote gains Distracting. Units with Pledged to Darkness that are joined by at least one Character gain Hard Target (1).
      Preferred Daemons: Hoarders, Bloat Flies

      New Special unit:
      Eldritch Obelisk
      This would be a war platform that gives some sort of buff and could be customized to be either carried into battle with the Possessed or be defensive for the backline. It could maybe give a better Aegis for Daemons for one round after being summoned.
      ________________________________
      Army Organization:
      Characters:

      Cult Leader
      Daemon Symbiote

      Core:
      Cultists
      Possessed
      I know that the reason not to put the Possessed in the core was to prevent that no one would take any Cultists. But a.) Possessed could have a limit so that it would not be possible to fill the entire core of a 4500 pts. army with it and b.) they are way too pricey to be sacrificing them with all the options available for sacrifice, so some HP batteries in the form of cultists would always be wanted. Plus, the Cult Leader can’t join the Possessed.


      No core units from Daemons. That would simplify the selection options and the complexity of the army book. Plus: the DL core units are designed to work with guiding manifestations, they are not available to Cultists.

      Special:
      Ritual Altar
      Profane Idol
      Eldritch Obelisk

      Summoned Daemons:
      Limit those to maybe 10 to select from, kicking out those that make less sense with summoning: Gremlins, Sirens, Brazen Beasts etc.
      Give the units fix Veil token costs (such as Titan Slayer Chariot: Summoning costs 1 Token). This way it is a little less math to do, plus odd things like a 205 points cost would not be making you turn away from units.
      _______________________________
      cuncta fluunt
    • I like the idea of deity specific cults, and definitely like the idea to of base choices. Your cult rules are all way too complex, but I like the idea. Why not just grant a deity specific manifestation to each cult?

      Tainted blades seem kinda counterproductive on the complexity reduction end. I mean, why not just give them Piercing Spike and Venom Sacs? You already have both of those printed in the book, so adding tainted blades is a third entry that can be resolved by two existing entries.

      Regarding Eldritch Obelisk. Go check out the terrain book. Already got something like that as DL faction specific terrain.

      Very much like the idea of cultists simplification.
      For Lexicon-team Project Blog:
      Updated lexicons

      Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177
    • Why not add new?
      Just to make it easier for opponents to understand and remember how this works. New designs and special rules add complexity to opponent.

      some nice designs that are indeed fitting. Reason why we did not do specific sins is that currently it is possible if not beneficial. With archetypes it seemed to add options where sins would be more about limiting options so to speak. My opinion is still that well working archetypes add more possibilities for personal and varied cults than sins.

      I had idea of dwarf cult of pride where smith wanted to build biggest hold guardians ever. So two idols would be centerpoints. Blazing glories would fit in also. That is quite doable even without any sin theme, though the dwarf specifics do not matter much either
    • I would rather have the book with as little army-specific upgrades and unit special rules as possible, especially now considering what happened with ID.

      I think the current setup with the archetypes is nice and general enough to allow for any kind of cult without pushing you in any direction.

      I think raising daemons is already covered by the summoning rules and healing is not something needed in the army.

      Sorry for not being a fan of your thoughts :/
      Have you checked out my Youtube channel yet? Link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8s5AkuzccDY_M0zBVIDd7w
    • nightwun wrote:

      Why not add new?
      Just to make it easier for opponents to understand and remember how this works. New designs and special rules add complexity to opponent.
      Within reason. Cultists already have more pages of special items than any other army book. And cultists have arcane compedium item access.

      DL were criticized (justly) for their overly complicated book and cultists are DL+ in terms of complication.
      For Lexicon-team Project Blog:
      Updated lexicons

      Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177
    • Maybe we view things differently. My point is that we are building on existing. For example we do not have BSB as it has many interactions Without it wr could reduce complexity a lot? That is not the case, as BSB is such a core feature we all know how it works.

      but i think you mean as standalone book and counting the overall of yet unknown interactions between units not yet learned, and ofc for new player this book looks like a nightmare :).

      So it again is finding the compromise and common ground of cool&new and simple & learned
    • On an extra note regarding complexity, the more options an army has, the more testing it needs. And you can only realistically test it so many times. So make sure that the final product has few enough options when you can actually test everything.
      For Lexicon-team Project Blog:
      Updated lexicons

      Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177
    • Ehakir wrote:

      Sorry for not being a fan of your thoughts :/
      No worries man, that is your good right! :) You expressed good criticism - a rare good in these times on the Internet. <3

      Ehakir wrote:

      I think raising daemons is already covered by the summoning rules and healing is not something needed in the army.

      Real raising is not really covered, but ofc I can see the point of saying it would not add anything to the army. I personally liked the idea to be able to sacrifice your (let's face it) kind of worthless Cultists to keep your elite units in play, which have the big drawback of standing idle on the field for 1 turn before they can move or attack. Only those few Daemons with shooting or magic can act on the turn they enter. Of course, the way they enter the field is the big advantage, so this was just an idea to give them some survivability, as many daemons are not the tankiest.

      nightwun wrote:

      My opinion is still that well working archetypes add more possibilities for personal and varied cults than sins.
      I would say the do quite the same for variation and I find it more fitting to choose deities to define your powers. Cultist are supposed to have no training in combat at all, they are civilians. So in my opinion, not their physical conditions should determine so much what they can do, as they are no soldiers, but instead the blessings their deities have given them.

      nightwun wrote:

      That is quite doable even without any sin theme, though the dwarf specifics do not matter much either

      I agree and that is why I personally like the Deity Cults more than making them of a certain race. It actually would also permit the idea that the cult is open for anyone who pledges allegiance to the deities (in a mixed society). And, imagine your idea with the Cult of Slaughter (which involves Pride), the dwarven Symbiote that accompanies the built golems into battle does coordinate them better on the battlefield. Why? Because he is partly a Pride daemon, partly maybe even a former Dwarven general that was corrupted by the cult. Pride Daemons are the Centurions among the Daemons and therefor he has otherworldy and wordly tactics and discipline for the soldiers at his disposal. The Cultists do not profit from him, as only Supernal units get the BSB feature. So he commands the Golems and the Daemons into battle, whereas the Cult Leader (maybe the general) is the brain behind the operation.


      Chronocide wrote:

      DL were criticized (justly) for their overly complicated book and cultists are DL+ in terms of complication.
      Why I partially disagree with that statement is because Cultists have no Greater Daemons who are by far the more complex units in the book. And most of the manifestations are, imho, not more complex than items or weapons, some just change a stat from the profile of the daemon or add a known characteristic to a daemon (like a breath attack or impact hits, all those things are general rules).

      Of course, I can't be objective anymore on that matter, as I know the DL book so well.

      Folkienn wrote:

      Actually that make sense that the cultists have access to (some of) the items from the society they are plotting within.
      True! A nice idea I never thought of. :)

      Chronocide wrote:

      Anyway, regarding the Tainted blade. If you don't use venom Sacs and piercing Spike, then you leave the door open for those two to stack your tainted blades.
      Would you say that is good or bad? The stacking wouldn't be that problematic, wouldn't it? 5+ Poison attacks or +2 AP is nothing that uncommon, I would dare to say. :)

      Chronocide wrote:

      On an extra note regarding complexity, the more options an army has, the more testing it needs. And you can only realistically test it so many times. So make sure that the final product has few enough options when you can actually test everything.
      I agree, why I would speak up for reducing the Daemons that can actually be summoned. My Obelisk idea can also be completely scrapped, ofc. Was just a small idea.
      cuncta fluunt
    • Sake of argument regarding complexity. What if none of the summoned daemons had manifestation access?

      You could entirety remove the manifestation pages from the book.

      Then, you could reintroduce some of them as cult specific upgrades. Not all, as DL only need the full set because they don't have normal magic/mundane item access.

      Could also add some cultist specific manifestations.
      For Lexicon-team Project Blog:
      Updated lexicons

      Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177
    • Sidereo wrote:

      Chronocide wrote:

      Anyway, regarding the Tainted blade. If you don't use venom Sacs and piercing Spike, then you leave the door open for those two to stack your tainted blades.
      Would you say that is good or bad? The stacking wouldn't be that problematic, wouldn't it? 5+ Poison attacks or +2 AP is nothing that uncommon, I would dare to say. :
      Good question. Don't know.

      Would probably depend on how it paired with other things it had access to. Main point was to mention it in the off chance that such a combination had not been considered.
      For Lexicon-team Project Blog:
      Updated lexicons

      Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Chronocide ().

    • A little puzzled by the Inquisition rule.


      rules wrote:

      Nobody Expects...


      At the start of step 6 of the Pre-Game Sequence (Determine the Deployment Zones), the opponent may choose to gain +6 or −6 modifier to the roll for choosing the Deployment Zone. If so, Cultists player must nominate one of the opponent’s Characters as Destrian Inquisitor. If the Destrian Inquisitor has been removed as a casualty or is Fleeing at the end of the game, the Cultists player gains +200 Victory Points.Ignore Nobody Expects... if the opponent’s army is also from the Cultists Supplement.
      So, at the start of the game, the cultist player asks the opponent if they want a +6 or a -6 to the roll for deployment in exchange for painting a 200vp on the head of one of the opponent's characters.

      What does that have to do with the inquisition?

      For minor grammar:



      rules wrote:

      Venom Sacs 25 pts

      The model gains Poison Attacks. If the model’s Close Combat Attacks already were Poison Attacks from another source other than this Manifestation, the attack will automatically wound on successful to-hit rolls of 5+ instead of 6+.
      Red is what I think is a word missing from the paragraph. I didn't replace anything, just added a word.
      For Lexicon-team Project Blog:
      Updated lexicons

      Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177
    • Chronocide wrote:

      What does that have to do with the inquisition?
      99% of the time opponent will choose Cultist player to choose sides, so opponent can deploy everything and have first turn. Otherwise opponent will get overrun by summons.

      It goes with fluff that Cultists operate in shadows and Inquisitor finds their hideout. So Cultists pick where they fight (hideout), but opponent has the surprise jump (Inquisitor).

      Or, if you must:
    • Krokz wrote:

      Chronocide wrote:

      What does that have to do with the inquisition?
      99% of the time opponent will choose Cultist player to choose sides, so opponent can deploy everything and have first turn. Otherwise opponent will get overrun by summons.
      It goes with fluff that Cultists operate in shadows and Inquisitor finds their hideout. So Cultists pick where they fight (hideout), but opponent has the surprise jump (Inquisitor).

      Or, if you must:
      I get the monty python reference, but the mechanics of the rule seem more suited to a bounty hunter or assassin faction (in place of the cultists).

      The cultist player get's an extra 200vp for killing a specific opponent? Shouldn't it be the opposite, that the Inquisition gets a bonus if they capture your cult leader?

      And if the idea is just a mechanic to let the opponent choose to go first or second, why not just say that? "Opponent chooses to go first or second instead of rolling dice. Cultist player gains +200vp for slaying the enemy general (who is a probably an inquisitor)."
      For Lexicon-team Project Blog:
      Updated lexicons

      Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177