Games Workshop and "Warhammer The Old World"

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  • Squee wrote:

    No it isn't? Grail knights are busy being awesome, so aren't sticking about with a slow army lugging warmachines behind it. Esp the KoE ones which are immobile in game, meaning they'd be disassembled to transport to battle.
    So why are Grail knights in particular the ones who give up on the slow army? Why not Questing knights - who are taking a time out on their quest for the grail to fight a battle?

    Realms are tied in due to feudal law and Aspirants just want to prove themselves so it makes sense that they'd stay. What about pegasus knights, who in my head are more vain than Grail Knights? Why do they stay?

    Look, I'm not saying these issues can't be sorted out, but the project doesn't have a history of quickly sorting out fluff issues but very very quickly solves most balance issues.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Kristian wrote:

    @Tyranno
    @Clangeddin Silverbeard
    I think we have to clear up the misconception that making a non competetetive game is bad games design. It isn’t. GW are arguably the best designers of tabletop games in the world based on their success. It may be frustrating that they do not make a game to your taste, but that is not a design flaw.(it may be a market demographic research flaw, depending on if there really is a sustainable market for truly competetive games).

    min/max, munchkining etc. All have their place in various gaming groups and it should be to noones surprise that you most often encounter it at tournaments.

    If you repeatedly and with full knowledge of the consequences of your actions, brought a list that your friends did not want to play to what I assume was to be a fun evening/day of gaming what does that make you?
    Your post is filled with unqualified assumptions and what I can only interpret as intentionally bad readings of my posts. That doesn't particularly make me want to talk to you. But just to clear up a few things:

    1) How do you know that Warhammer 8th edition wasn't meant to be a competitive game? Why was there tournaments all over the place if it wasn't competitive?

    2) GW has done a lot of good things. That doesn't mean I can't critique their games or the way they do business, or that their designs can't be described as poor, seen from a certain point of view. If balance is a parameter, GW rules just aren't that great. They never have been. Also, if 8th and AoS were so good, made by THE BEST GAME DESIGNERS IN THE WORLD, why have 43919 volunteers spent 2845641 hours of their spare time to make this very similar game, the 9th Age, as an alternative? Why would that happen, Kristian?

    3) What I (also) like about 9th age is that even if you encounter min/maxing at a tournament, it doesn't spoil the event. Because it's a balanced game.

    4) If I repeatedly brought the best list I could to play with my friends, that makes me exactly the same as them, because that's what we all were doing. We all tried to bring our best stuff. It just so happened that my best stuff was way better than their best stuff - because of poor game design. I don't appreciate that you're trying to make me out to be some sort of psycho who intentionally runs over my poor, helpless friends, or that I somehow brought my distaste for 8th on myself. I merely explored the game and its possibilities with my group of friends, and we all found them lacking enough to switch to 9th age. Which delivered where 8th did not, we felt. If you can't understand that, what does that make you? No, wait, I'll tell you instead of lamely implying bad things about you: it makes you either a little thick-headed or a person who intentionally reads other people's posts in a bad way to discredit them. Neither is very pretty.
  • Gw managed to create an immersive world with warhammer and even AoS is good if you like the high fantasy! (btw, as far as I know, in AoS every faction are very well characterized in game)
    All those hate towards GW is getting ridiculous (guys, End Times happened years ago, move on)


    That said, I think it's better to recognize their strong points and the weak points of the 9th age, not to compete with GW, but for the sake and improvement of the 9th age itself.
  • Adaephon_Delat wrote:

    I strongly disagree. The most part of the fluff was copied or ridiculous...
    But it still existed.

    And I find it extremely ironic that a T9A staff member is saying GW copied stuff for WFB given the project copied WFB to start up. 1.3 came about very fast because of the iminent threat of a Cease and Desist letter.

    Others have done the same - JK Rowling was one. The vast majority of magical creatures in her books were taken from myth & legend. Dragons, Hippogriffs, Basilisks (a european myth), Giants, witches & wizards, broomsticks, magic wands, potions, even wizard schools aren't original. She moulded them together into her own thing and did very well out of selling her stories.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Ghiznuk wrote:

    Oh, and Bretonnia was the only army not to have the right to take Mercenaries, that is what a call a strong nerf sucked out of someone's thumb, for so-called « fluff » reasons.
    I mean, seriously, why would Bretonnia not take Mercenaries (« they are too proud ») and High Elves or Chaos still be allowed to. Lol. Bravo, GW.
    It came from proud and most of all from a battle between tilea an bretonnia that bretonnian lost cause pikes, is explained very well. You talk a lot of what you don't know my dear, and always to say bull... About gw
  • The Tilean pikes are just one part of the Mercenary army.
    Why would Bretonnia not field a Giant, Halflings, an elvish Dragonlord or an Albion Truthsayer ?
    Oh, ok, they are so proud.
    But High Elves were proud, too, and nothing was preventing them from taking Ogres, the Cursed Company, or Norsk Marauders,
    while Long Drong Silver's dwarves were perfectly fine battling alongside Chaos armies but not elvish ones;
    and Tichi-Huichi riders were OK to fight with Daemons but not in a Skaven or a Khemri army.

    I'm not making it up, I have it in front of me (the WH v6 Mercenaries compendium that got published in the White Dwarf).

    I get that some rancour can exist between Bretonnia and some bad experiences against some Mercenaries, or that they can be proud, but as I hope you can clearly see as much as me that some of those choices are really very arbitrary.


    @Sir_Sully Sorry for the personal pick :p

    Uhu, you are asking why other armies don't have Rare units.
    That's actually not true.
    All other armies have different specific categories limiting their number of Monsters, Artillery, or some specific Elite units (see elvish armies) that you can call equivalent to « Rare ». The difference with Equitaine is that there are no monsters, nor artillery category, as it would be irrelevant. There is a Flying category, though. So, the limiting between Grail and Trebuchet is just a way of introducing the Rare category without making a dedicated category for it.
    I don't see any fluff reason, and I don't agree with the explanation Squee.
    For me, it suffices to say that « Some units are rarer and more difficult to get », I mean, I understand the general fluff explanation for why there is a Rare category in most armies as applying to the limitation Grail/Trebuchet.

    Sir Sully wrote:

    AoS has significantly more lore than T9A.
    And cheap fantasy novels such as the ones published for Warcraft or Dungeons and Dragons have significantly more volume than Lord of the Rings or Discworld. But you forget them as soon as you read them.

    I mean, just give me 10 minutes and I'll write you 5 pages of AoS « lore ». It's easy. Just wave your arms and insert whatever faction in whatever place, for whatever reason. It's all magic.


    Sir Sully wrote:

    AoS is the most sucessful tabletop fantasy game ever
    But I don't know anyone who plays it. My old club switched to Warmahorde instead.

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    The post was edited 1 time, last by Ghiznuk ().

  • Mercenary Armies wrote:

    and always to say bull... About gw
    Oh, seriously, GW is the first one who declared that their whole game and universe was worthless and decided to drop it, not me

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  • I love the internet because it lets people discuss silly things and stamp their opinion on a topic as if they are an expert on it. Or it lets them pretend they have some form of omnicience that allows them to see the future. What we do know so far is...someone in GW management approved a new project that involves square bases and using their old world setting. Then they put out a video that I am guessing took about 30 minutes to produce to get some public reaction. And they made a map. I think it is also safe to say their primary goal is still to sell new models and to make as much money as they can and more than likely their basic business model will be the same - new models get better rules which get trumped by a newer model getting better rules (aka "power creep).

    The absolute best thing Games Workshop can do will be to put out a fun product that lots of people will enjoy but also in some way adds something creative and positive to the gaming community. Unfortunately that is not their primary goal. Their goal is to make money for their stock holders. I expect they will try and create a product that makes as much money as possible and they have plenty of options to explore in how they do that. We really don't know what form that will take but hopefully in three to five years, we'll find out. In the end I hope people play whatever game brings them the most joy and delight. I hope each of us finds a way to pour our creative energy into whatever game suits them and their gaming community best. And of course I hope all of us have a lot of fun along the way!

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  • @Clangeddin Silverbeard
    You made sweeping statements on the quality of GW rules writing. You only nuanced it after I pointed out to you that it only sucked from a competetive point of view.

    I know warhammer in general and 8th included were not meant for competition because the designers said so.

    yes there were tournaments, GW even held them. People played competetive warhammer in spite of the rules, not because of them.

    I’ ll refrase my previous question:
    If you knew before a game that you would win and that your friend would not enjoy the game, why play at all? Why not play a different list? Isn’t the point of gaming with friends that you all have fun?
  • @Grimbold Blackhammer I agree with everything you said. Of course, "making money" can be seen as the natural result of such activities as "engaging the players", "delivering high quality products", and "successful marketing", all of which are things that we should be striving for too. It's to our benefit to keep a close eye on them.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Ozariig ().

  • I think we should agree that the WH fluff in the beginning as a project was not made to make sense.

    It was just a couple of guys who decided to make models, mostly for using them in other people's games, much like any other model publisher we see today.
    And they decided to very quickly draw a universe that would somehow explain why you would find japanese samurais together with German landsknecht, halflings, dwarves, elves and ogres. Only later did they develop their fluff, but the foundation of it remained shaky.
    And they just retconned it so many times.

    On the other hand, our team from the beginning set the task to carve out a coherent, well-thought of and believable fantasy universe, as well as making the debatable choice (which I appreciate a lot) to deliver the fluff only with an in-world view.
    That is why they've been so slow at producing anything, because any detail must be thought of.

    Also, not mentioning the whole past of the universe : every faction's fluff must somehow interconnect with all the other 15 factions' fluff. It's not like Lizardmen appeared out of nowhere and never interacted much with any other faction at all except Skaven and sometimes Dark Elves and Estalians. How do you justify Lizardmen fighting Ogre Khans, Orcs or Bretonnia ?
    In the Ninth Age everything is possible.

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  • For me this is a good thing if a game like T9A or WHB 8th is released by Games Workshop.
    They are good at selling miniature and games, these will bring a lot of people to the joy of pushing square bases minis and not only skirmish base game.

    Some of those people will be looking for some more balance rules, as by construction GW made unbalance game to promote his sells.
    They will probably try some home brew rules, like some of us did with ETC comps.
    But they will surely discover T9A project and some will come to try and found T9A is more a game for them.

    On the other end of the spectrum, the players who are today playing T9A but not finding what they are looking for (more fun than competitive game) might migrate to this new game.

    I bet if this happens, the number of people coming to T9A will be way higher than those leaving (at least in long term sight).

    Don't forget there is more and more young player whiling to discover the miniature game world and T9A is not armed yet to touch directly them.

    If we just focus on doing a great game, I see this new project from GW the perfect opportunity for T9A to grow :)

    I think if our community is not growing it's mainly because young players are not used to play on squared bases.

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  • Adaephon_Delat wrote:

    @Sir_Sully sry, forgot the disclaimer:this is my thinking as an individual, not as a Staff Member. And t9a did not copy fluff just the ruleset was improved and continued. The fluff made up by the Team is by far better and much deeper.
    I understood that your comment was not as a staff member. That doesnt prevent the comment being a bit pot, kettle. There's also the other way of looking at it - If GW's game was so bad why has a community project put serious time and effort into keeping it alive, fluff or no fluff.

    I absolutely agree that T9A's fluff is very good so far. As to deep, there isn't enough of it to fully comment on that although if the released FABs are the standard, the team are on the right track.

    As to whether it's better than the Old World's fluff that depends on your measure. In my opinion only time will tell which is better. If there are still a large number of people playing and discussing the game in 30 years or more, then you can claim to be as good or better than GW's WFB fluff.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Sir_Sully wrote:

    Adaephon_Delat wrote:

    @Sir_Sully sry, forgot the disclaimer:this is my thinking as an individual, not as a Staff Member. And t9a did not copy fluff just the ruleset was improved and continued. The fluff made up by the Team is by far better and much deeper.
    I understood that your comment was not as a staff member. That doesnt prevent the comment being a bit pot, kettle. There's also the other way of looking at it - If GW's game was so bad why has a community project put serious time and effort into keeping it alive, fluff or no fluff.
    For me it was the grand System of this Kind of wargame and the fantasy setting per se. And I do like their miniatures a lot
  • 9th Age is all serious business:

    Well, you can goof up your units to evoke a chuckle from your opponent. Take a look at my "Australians" serving in my Lahmian army:

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    Balance fetish:

    Whenever I played Night Goblins my opponent had to gimp his Empire troops in order to make it interesting. Absolutely nothing wrong with this kind of necessity as any kind of tabletop game is impossible to truly balance because it encompasses just too many units.
  • Maybe its just me but I draw on a mix of my own fluff and GWs old fluff and I will use both T9A and GW settings to do so. I think my homies do too. The truth is GW makes games for new players and kids. The ZOMG pictures of fully painted eavy metal team armies arrayed! The crazy stories each army has its own version about being the best. The constant threat of chaos incursions. The stoic tragic dying elves of tragic tragedy.
    It was great but at some point it falls flat when you start graduating into more serious gaming where abusiveness is easy to recognize and build. At that point the fluff dies anyway because you can't use 3/4 of the entries and maybe even your entire book.
    I think maybe its human nature for people to remember the good and forget the bad. Did orc players EVER have a decent book?
    I know I hated playing against dark elves skirmish deathstars of shooting scouting great weapon strike first bs with S7 throwingstar assassins that would instakill chariots. Or vamps with david hasselhoff banner deathstar plus insane undying lords that could break full RNF infantry blocks from the front each charge and the wedge of infantry crown caster tucked in the back with all flying steeds and access to all lores and other complete nonsense. Each of these broke the game in one way or another that was unfun and easy to abuse and existed in each and every edition.

    GW can't balance games. Its not in their benefit or their nature. Its the disparity between armies that causes emotional investment.
    Yes all armies are balanced but not at the same time or even the same edition! Thats their trick that creates the love hate.
    As a 40k player I live with it. But for fantasy theres an alternative its called 9th age.

    I have nothing further. Unwatched/
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  • I mean, Warhammer used to be written like a roleplaying game, to be played with a game master who would judge scenarios and lists and decide what was fair. it wasn't intended to be balanced, it was intended to be judged.
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  • Ghiznuk wrote:

    The Tilean pikes are just one part of the Mercenary army.
    Why would Bretonnia not field a Giant, Halflings, an elvish Dragonlord or an Albion Truthsayer ?
    The dream of every knight was to become a Famous Grail Knight, which is acheived by going on a quest and slaying monsters (like Dragons and Giants) up and down the Land. Why would a Giant / Dragon not be killed by the Knights?

    And the rules bore that out in game as Knights could damage and then run down a dragon provided they charged. If the Dragon charged, the knights would struggle but eventually break the dragon and run it down. Giants were easy to deal with and would easily be taken down by a unit of knights.

    Ghiznuk wrote:

    So, the limiting between Grail and Trebuchet is just a way of introducing the Rare category without making a dedicated category for it.
    I don't see any fluff reason...
    Why not just introduce a category? I'm not sure what they'd have called it but they could have just created a category for these 2 options. It's counter intuative to introduce a category to "remove abitary restrictions" on one hand and to keep the very same restrictions with the other.

    Ghiznuk wrote:

    And cheap fantasy novels such as the ones published for Warcraft or Dungeons and Dragons have significantly more volume than Lord of the Rings or Discworld. But you forget them as soon as you read them.

    I mean, just give me 10 minutes and I'll write you 5 pages of AoS « lore ». It's easy. Just wave your arms and insert whatever faction in whatever place, for whatever reason. It's all magic.
    That doesn't change the fact that T9A's fluff isn't at critical mass. Using Lord of the Rings as an example, it wouldn't be nearly as popular if Tolkin had written just the Fellowship of the Ring and stopped. Or with Discworld if Sir Terry had just written The Colour of Magic and given up.

    That the comparitive point T9A is at and until the volume of fluff reaches critical mass it isn't and will not be self sustaining.


    As an asside & Spoiler Alert for anyone reading Discworld novels (which if you haven't you should because they're brilliant - I wouldn't start with The Colour of Magic or the Light Fantastic though).
    Display Spoiler

    The Discworld is a great comparison for GW fluff in WFB because it also evolved and Sir Terry dropped or adapted the bits that didn't work. E.g. The Wizards were always killing each other for advancement in the earlier novels but that stops later on as it didn't suit his narative as he wanted to establish Wizard characters like Ponder Stibbons and Mustrum Ridcully. The Fluff evolved and either explained away bits that were no longer wanted as "progress" or outright ignored the bits that didn't fit.

    Sir Terry also heavily "borrowed" events from history and real things to write into his books. Maskerade is heavily influenced by The Phantom of the Opera and Lords and Ladies borrows elements of Shakespeares A Midsummer Night's Dream. Individual characters would contain references to history themselves including but not limited to:
    • William De Worde, where according to the Annotated Pratchett File, the "name is a composition of the names Wynkyn de Worde and William Caxton.
    • Harry King, whom Sir Terry himself claimed is mostly based in fact, "apart from the trolls"
    • Sam Vimes, and his "Sammies" which tanslate to Bobbies and Sir Robert Peel (who established the Metropolitan police in London) in roundworld.
    • Agnes Nutter - whom is also the witch who wrote the book of prophecies in Good Omens
    • etc

    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Ghiznuk wrote:



    And they just retconned it How do you justify Lizardmen fighting Ogre Khans, Orcs or Bretonnia ?
    They can teleport entire Armies using the geolines. Is well explained. Why they don't use it every time? Because they follow the old ones plan.
    they also wrote about several expedition in lustria and on southern lands.



    In the Ninth Age everything is possible.
    Speaking about... How about Infernal Dwarves fighting Dread Elves or Lizardmen? Can't wait the army book.