VS revealed as 5th faction to get Legendary treatment

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  • I like the idea of a perverted Roman society better.

    Corrupted democracy = characters.
    Cowardlylegions = warriors, slaves and guards.
    Circus and entertainment of civilians for military purposes = ogre rats, giant rats, abomination.
    Maintainers of ancient technology that has been perverted from its former purpose = ancient field harvesters is the wheel, cannons are ancient energy condensers, gas throwers were field pesticides, etc.
    Former doctors, now with their purpose corrupted = Spread of plague and pestilence.
    Assassins = spies, thieves, explorers or even ambassadors of other civilizations.
  • That's brilliant !

    Yeah, definitely perverted late Roman Republic.

    My reference to the Soviet Union would be to make it even more pastiche, with all the bombastic propaganda.

    For example my post on the FB announcing this news was something along the line of
    « They came to cast down tyrants and usher in a new era of equality and friendship between nations, under the benevolent guidance of the beloved Senate. As well as to restore a few historical misrepresentations. »
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • I'm mostly with you on those, and I'm especially all behind Hulk Gladiators.

    But I really, really want to use the plague clan as a new subversive religion. They come from Sagarika, so we can already steal from all kinds of religious suggestions. Buddhist and hindu ascetics. Radial Christian poverty cults. Self-debasement and mortification.


    And of course, since they are Roman, the Magna Mater. Kybele? Best backstory for a god ever.


    (Short version: During the Second Punic War, Hannibal was marching on Rome and the Republic was panicking. They found a prophecy that told them that in a time of emergency, they needed The Mother. They asked the oracle of Delphi, who told them they needed a new mother goddess: Kybele, from Anatolia. They sent a delegation to retrieve a holy meteorite from Anatolia and bring it to Rome, to carve it into a statue and also imported some Greek priests. Shortly after, Hannibal was thrown out of Italy and the victory was given to Kybele.

    So, she got everything an important god had to have at the time: her own party. Ludi Megalenses, the Great Games. Plsu animal sacrifices, parades and theatre.

    Kybele was not just a mother goddess, though, she was also a fertility goddess and her Greek priests had some rituals the Romans hated. The priests were apparently loud and lewd in public, they sang and played horns and cymbals, which went entirely against the Roman noble ideas of quiet, stoic dignity. So the rumours started that the priests castrated themselves to be closer to their female goddess, that they sacrificed virgins. Didn't help that the priests went to hold secret ceremonies out in the forest (as a lot of Greeks liked to do) and whipped themselves and baptized new converts in the blood of bulls.

    So, in the end, several Emperors and Dictators tried to outlaw the cult as too wild, and joining it as a Patrician was pretty much seen as the height of crassness.)
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    Collection of all offcially posted Vermin background

    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau."
  • @Ghiznuk just so you do not get carried away with that single interpretation "House" has multiple meanings in the VS society, that was just one of them shown :)

    Advisory Board

    Background Team

    Art Team Coordinator

    Team Croatia ETC 2019 Captain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HEROES AND VILLEINS OF THE 9TH AGE
  • Eldan wrote:

    I'll stay by my favourite idea from the suggestion thread:

    Vermin swarm units don't profit from inspiring presence.
    Instead, all Vermin Swarm units have brood's courage on all other swarm units. (Highest rank bonus in range only).
    I like this as it enables both big units and MSU - both are swarmy in their own way. Having only one or a few big units that bubble out Ld bonuses to units nearby makes sense and is pretty much how Empire works. It's also a fair risk/reward situation where if you do lose that big unit, the smalles ones immediately become more cowardly.
    Did I mention my first video game title is coming soon?
  • And this cult can take all the things that other civilizations see as the worst aspect of Rat culture and amplify them. Because of asceticism and zealotry. Others see the rats as dirty? Where other rats live in rough holes and burrows, these live out in the tunnels, huddled up to the walls by the hundreds. Rats tear down civilization? THese are iconoclasts to the traditional rats gods. Rats are warlike and backstabbing? These are an angry mob surging through the steets eating other rats. Rats spread disease? Most rats are just associated with the plague that brought down Avras because they are opportunistic scavengers, but these spread disease on purpose, because bringing everyone low is part of their religion.

    (Fun fact, because they are from Sagarika: Kybele is sometimes associated with Kalima, as a warlike mother goddess.)
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    Collection of all offcially posted Vermin background

    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau."
  • Would this put the mystai at odds with the Rat King's residual supporters? Seeing his death as an example of what happens to those who overindulge and fail to embrace their verminous nature? Despite the iconoclastic nature, they may be the most fervent supporters of the Republic, since the Consuls having to prove themselves keeps away the noble's problem of job security, which lets them grow complacent, fat, and weak. Never again shall the glorious Republic fall to a threat as pathetic as the Man-beasts. Never again shall we descend into a mere Empire.
  • Or they may be more radical, fighting for direct democracy over aristocratic crony republic.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    Collection of all offcially posted Vermin background

    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau."
  • Eldan wrote:

    And this cult can take all the things that other civilizations see as the worst aspect of Rat culture and amplify them. Because of asceticism and zealotry. Others see the rats as dirty? Where other rats live in rough holes and burrows, these live out in the tunnels, huddled up to the walls by the hundreds. Rats tear down civilization? THese are iconoclasts to the traditional rats gods. Rats are warlike and backstabbing? These are an angry mob surging through the steets eating other rats. Rats spread disease? Most rats are just associated with the plague that brought down Avras because they are opportunistic scavengers, but these spread disease on purpose, because bringing everyone low is part of their religion.

    (Fun fact, because they are from Sagarika: Kybele is sometimes associated with Kalima, as a warlike mother goddess.)
    This all sounds a lot like not Kalima but KUULIMA to me ^^
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • Eldan wrote:

    I'm mostly with you on those, and I'm especially all behind Hulk Gladiators.

    But I really, really want to use the plague clan as a new subversive religion. They come from Sagarika, so we can already steal from all kinds of religious suggestions. Buddhist and hindu ascetics. Radial Christian poverty cults. Self-debasement and mortification.
    This doesn't invalidate my point. Doctors traveled east (and in all directions) to find the wisdom and new techniques. When they returned and society became perverted, they had exotic knowledge of poisons and diseases, how to spread them and how they are generated. Perhaps that is why their poisons are so deadly, bringing non-native diseases that would be very mild for a native but deadly for outsiders. And along with all that you can put thousands of cults if you want, they can bring beliefs from their travels that are mixed and / or create some sub-sects. From my point of view it would be much more interesting if the new cult was not very defined, it is still something primitive, there is no strong structure, there are many interpretations and discrepancies (this is basic in the VS society)
  • Ghiznuk wrote:

    I think you are bypassing many elements of the already released fluff on the VS.

    There are houses indeed, which are kind of « guilds », working together in the same global national structure.
    So every VS army is made of different troops from the different Houses, there is no point in setting up a « Clan Army » anymore.

    House Rakachit are the engineers

    House Fetthis are the geneticians

    House Sicarra trains assassins

    House Underminer (renamed « Subfossor » in the French translation) looks more like specialists of underground operations.

    The Plague cult is a new religion coming from Sagarika


    « The Threat Beneath

    Beneath the surface of their former empire lies a hidden threat that few remember. Waiting only for the right moment to strike, these creatures are as treacherous as they are ruthless, infesting any nook or cranny they can find. Empowered with diabolical technology and hordes of pestilent beasts, their greatest wish is always to reinstate the inescapable dominion of the Vermin Swarm.

    Long ago, Sunna was able to unite the tribes of men and overthrow Vermin supremacy over Avras and most of Vetia. Since that time, the rat-people have laid low, but they have been far from idle. Their great Houses, heritage from an Avrasi past, are divided and pursuing their own ambitions for now, yet every one of them is a threat to the nations above. If the Swarm’s political and religious institutions could come into alignment, who knows what devastation they might wreak. »
    But wasn't that all based off of the legacy explanation about why so many factions exist within our army book?

    Put another way, weren't the background writers in simply putting a spin on legacy fluff that already existed instead of developing something new?

    That's how it always felt to me.

    Personally, I would selectively de-cannonize some of what has been released in the Scrolls and reimagine what the army is supposed to be free from so much legacy influence.

    Rakachit? Fetthis? Sicarra? Plague Cult? Does the Republic really need to be so compartmentalized? I could understand the separation if these were competing religions/cults, but not if they are simply unions/guilds.
  • It's a little bit more complex, as @'Giladis''s put it.

    I don't know, you could probably compare it to the different « Adeptus » of WH40K's Imperium.

    The Adeptus Mechanicus is part of the Imperium, while also being a separate and semi-alien body, much like the mitochondria inside our body cells. Could House Rakachit be something similar ?

    Same thing about the Officio Assassinorum. Or the Navis Nobilite, for that matter !! (Emperor save us from the mutant)

    Then the Adeptus Terra, the Adeptus Ministorum, the Adeptus Arbites, the Adeptus Munitorum, the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, the various planetary and sector governors… are all different imperial agencies that are still very independant from each other and sometimes compete directly against each other, or further their own interests for political reasons, leading a constant struggle for power behind the scenes. Not mentioning the various subfactions, currents of thought and personal rivals within all these bodies.

    Even further, a bit everywhere in the 40K fluff, it is explained that even inside a given spaceship, every element of the ship is usually maintained by a different clan of workers that have been living there and maintaining it for hundreds of generations. For example, the ship's engines are huge structures housing five hundred people around them, and all those guys are one clan who basically intermarry with each other, sticking to their own secret and half-magic rituals of activation and of maintainance, that they pass on from one generation to the next, under the supervision of their own « traditional » authorities, each having their own clan institutions for appointing said leaders. Same regarding the holds, the macrocannon battery, the computer infrastructure under the main bridge, the workshop for the smaller crafts etc. Everything hereditary, everything collective, everything clan.

    Which means people from different trades could basically also be considered of almost different races, due to « natural » selection, genetic isolation and genetic drift over countless generations. Like tailor clans with super big eyes and very thin and nimble fingers, smith clans with super strong arms and thick upper bodies, etc. Each of these clans with their own immunities and their own hereditary weird genetical diseases due to hundreds of years of interbreeding.

    Now… imagine this happening not with humans, but with madly paranoid, ever fidgeting and power-hungry rats with supershort lifespans.

    So, there you are, that's how I see it.
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa

    The post was edited 5 times, last by Ghiznuk ().

  • I would like to have the 'brotherhood' not be so closely connected to the plague topic. Some of its aspects can be disease, sure, but I don't like it being their main trait. Wha not also connect them with the general food topic?

    I think food is a very very important part of the VS society. Far more important than for any other faction. Food determines who can reproduce. When supplied with a lot of food, population explodes. Vermin have a short life cycle with high metabolism, they need to consume a lot of food in their short lifes. Power, food and reproduction rates are directly connected in the vermin society.

    The brotherhood controls a large part of the food production and can amplify or distract others food production by rituals causing mega growth or rot. Maybe there was a large famine and the brotherhood solved it with their weird rituals of mega growth. Now they have gained power.
    The brotherhood decides who to supply with their food, whom to support, whom to distract. They have members dedicated to hardly eating at all (hunger dudes) and they have members eating a lot (fat dudes). They live both extreme excesses, hunger and gluttony. And from both they get a spiritual feeling being connected to their deity.
  • The Unmarked wrote:

    Ghiznuk wrote:

    I think you are bypassing many elements of the already released fluff on the VS.

    There are houses indeed, which are kind of « guilds », working together in the same global national structure.
    So every VS army is made of different troops from the different Houses, there is no point in setting up a « Clan Army » anymore.

    House Rakachit are the engineers

    House Fetthis are the geneticians

    House Sicarra trains assassins

    House Underminer (renamed « Subfossor » in the French translation) looks more like specialists of underground operations.

    The Plague cult is a new religion coming from Sagarika


    « The Threat Beneath

    Beneath the surface of their former empire lies a hidden threat that few remember. Waiting only for the right moment to strike, these creatures are as treacherous as they are ruthless, infesting any nook or cranny they can find. Empowered with diabolical technology and hordes of pestilent beasts, their greatest wish is always to reinstate the inescapable dominion of the Vermin Swarm.

    Long ago, Sunna was able to unite the tribes of men and overthrow Vermin supremacy over Avras and most of Vetia. Since that time, the rat-people have laid low, but they have been far from idle. Their great Houses, heritage from an Avrasi past, are divided and pursuing their own ambitions for now, yet every one of them is a threat to the nations above. If the Swarm’s political and religious institutions could come into alignment, who knows what devastation they might wreak. »
    But wasn't that all based off of the legacy explanation about why so many factions exist within our army book?
    Put another way, weren't the background writers in simply putting a spin on legacy fluff that already existed instead of developing something new?

    That's how it always felt to me.

    Personally, I would selectively de-cannonize some of what has been released in the Scrolls and reimagine what the army is supposed to be free from so much legacy influence.

    Rakachit? Fetthis? Sicarra? Plague Cult? Does the Republic really need to be so compartmentalized? I could understand the separation if these were competing religions/cults, but not if they are simply unions/guilds.

    The Vermin Swarm thinks of themselves as the Roman Empire but they're really the Byzantine Empire (or perhaps more accurately, the popular perception thereof; " confusing complexities of the Empire's ministries and the elaborateness of its court ceremonies. Likewise, the "Byzantine system" also suggests a penchant for intrigue, plots and assassinations and an overall unstable political state of affairs.".

    That's their T9A identity. Byzantine Rats. That's not "legacy", that's "based off real word history and cultures".


    So, given that they've got many factions and complicated internal politics (because really, isn't that what we all want for VS?), why on earth would we not give mechanical identities to some of them?


    If anything, the change I would want to make would be further subdivision; practically every unit could have it's own associated polity, which would (conversely) make any given pairing equally fluffy.

    Background Team

  • Skarab86 wrote:

    So, 2 (more than 1, ok) years aprox to be changed? You should be quiet cause we don't know where we will be... Even AoS (worst game ever) can carry us!

    Mi point here is that the rules MUST be the first and the "History of Avras" adapt to it. Never the opposite process.
    You're a bit too late here, it's already written everywhere that the fluff is foremost and the rules are based on the fluff.
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • Furthermore VS background is ready and waiting to used by the future LAB team. Just to make it clear background being ready doesn't mean the LAB text have been written.

    Advisory Board

    Background Team

    Art Team Coordinator

    Team Croatia ETC 2019 Captain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HEROES AND VILLEINS OF THE 9TH AGE
  • Skarab86 wrote:

    So, 2 (more than 1, ok) years aprox to be changed? You should be quiet cause we don't know where we will be... Even AoS (worst game ever) can carry us!

    Mi point here is that the rules MUST be the first and the "History of Avras" adapt to it. Never the opposite process.

    "The rules MUST be the first" is a truly, truly terrible idea. Here's why:


    1) Legal: T9A needs it's own, legally distinct and (ideally) high quality IP. Otherwise, the entire project ceases to exist. Even IF (and this is an absurd hypothetical) even IF the "History of Avras" was so terrible as to result in every single Vermin Swarm player quitting T9A forever, that would still be less damaging than T9A getting sued into non-existence.

    2) Inspiration: To create our own unique, creative and fun rules, the LAB teams need an inspiring background. Rules don't come into existence in a vacuum. "Alright, time to design some units. Let's put some of them on... say 20mm bases? And we can have them have Stat #1 at 3, and Stat #2 at 5, and Stat #4... wait, what does Stat #4 do?". People design units to fit a background, and, per point one, that has to be T9A's legally distinct and unique IP.

    3) Speed: Worldbuilding is much, much, much more complex than rules writing (and I'm qualified to say that, since as a LAB team BGT rep, I do both). The background needs to have all the factions interact. It's a slow, laborious process, particularly when it needs to be done to a high quality standard. If we wrote the rules first, the ID book would be out sometime in 2023 (and VS in 2026), because it's been about three years of background work that we'd have to do AFTER finalizing the rules. (I'm not joking. The background has been worked on for more than three years, actually)

    4) We provide rules for a holistic hobby experience: People can and do build armies around fluff releases that they personally find inspiring. When you go back and change that stuff, you can invalidate their entire army, their cool diorama, all their work - all in the service of rules that actually *aren't* their main focus. We both have and want hobbyists who aren't 100% focused on rules. That means delivering *internally consistent* quality background.

    5) We have to lock in things anyway: We can't have every army be the best in every form of everything. But there's no real way to divvy that up on a purely mechanical level; people can only work on so much at any one time, and spreading effort thin fails. Working from background grounds it.


    In short, what you are asking for would:

    1) Probably destroy the project
    2) Be unfeasible even if it didn't
    3) Slow down production immensely even if it didn't
    4) Annoy people who aren't you
    5) Not even achieve the increased freedom you're imagining anyway

    Background Team