Engineers can repair war machines

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  • Loremaster wrote:

    Engineers can heal on a war machine or fix it when it's broken. During the player's moving phase, an engineer can heal one wound for free on a war machine, and if it gives up its engineer special rule, it can heal it to maximum health and also remove any misfire effects.
    Just curious, what situations are you running into where the War Machine isn't doomed when it starts losing HP? If your War Machine was losing HP, that would mean I have a melee unit in base contact with it....

    As for repairing misfires, does this replace the re-rolls to the misfire table already granted by the Engineer? Being able to re-roll misfires in the shooting phase and then remove them entirely in the movement phase makes me wonder like what's the point of even having a misfire table....I mean, at that point, why not have the Engineer grant immunity to misfires?
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  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    When you say "fix when it's broken", do you mean resurrect the thing?
    No. I mean what I wrote in the following paragraph, which is about the healing and removing misfire effects.



    Chronocide wrote:

    Loremaster wrote:

    Engineers can heal on a war machine or fix it when it's broken. During the player's moving phase, an engineer can heal one wound for free on a war machine, and if it gives up its engineer special rule, it can heal it to maximum health and also remove any misfire effects.
    Just curious, what situations are you running into where the War Machine isn't doomed when it starts losing HP? If your War Machine was losing HP, that would mean I have a melee unit in base contact with it....
    As for repairing misfires, does this replace the re-rolls to the misfire table already granted by the Engineer? Being able to re-roll misfires in the shooting phase and then remove them entirely in the movement phase makes me wonder like what's the point of even having a misfire table....I mean, at that point, why not have the Engineer grant immunity to misfires?

    The healing 1 wound is a passive effect. It doesnt cost you anything. Just an added flavor, not saying it's super valuable.

    It's much weaker than immunity to misfire, because you have to give up the engineer aim buff for a turn in order to use it. And even though the engineer allows you to reroll the misfire roll, it does not mean that you will suffer no misfire effects. So you could run into the situation that you need to repair. Finally, an engineer can only reroll misfire on one war machine a turn. So if you have two war machines and one engineer, the other one misfires normally and then you might want to use the engineer to fix it next turn, giving up the aim buff.
  • Loremaster wrote:



    The healing 1 wound is a passive effect. It doesnt cost you anything. Just an added flavor, not saying it's super valuable.

    It's much weaker than immunity to misfire, because you have to give up the engineer aim buff for a turn in order to use it. And even though the engineer allows you to reroll the misfire roll, it does not mean that you will suffer no misfire effects. So you could run into the situation that you need to repair. Finally, an engineer can only reroll misfire on one war machine a turn. So if you have two war machines and one engineer, the other one misfires normally and then you might want to use the engineer to fix it next turn, giving up the aim buff.
    Okay, so what does your intended Engineer rule look like?

    Something like:

    Modified Engineer wrote:


    21.A.a.7 Engineer (X+)
    Once per Movement Phase, (unengaged?) Engineers may select a (single?) War Machine within 6″ (same range requirement?) and:
    • can heal one wound for free on a war machine
    • if it gives up its engineer special rule, it can heal it to maximum health and also remove any misfire effects.

    Once per Shooting Phase, an unengaged Engineer may select a single War
    Machine within 6″ that has not fired yet to gain the following effects:
    • Set the Aim of one of the War Machine’s Artillery Weapons to the value given in brackets (X+).
    • You may reroll the roll on the Misfire Table .
    • You may reroll the dice (all of them or none) for determining the number of hits of a Flamethrower Artillery Weapon
    Seems like a lot of text for just one rule.

    Also seems rather incredible how many things this mundane engineer can do.
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  • Yes, he can move

    Chronocide wrote:

    Loremaster wrote:

    The healing 1 wound is a passive effect. It doesnt cost you anything. Just an added flavor, not saying it's super valuable.

    It's much weaker than immunity to misfire, because you have to give up the engineer aim buff for a turn in order to use it. And even though the engineer allows you to reroll the misfire roll, it does not mean that you will suffer no misfire effects. So you could run into the situation that you need to repair. Finally, an engineer can only reroll misfire on one war machine a turn. So if you have two war machines and one engineer, the other one misfires normally and then you might want to use the engineer to fix it next turn, giving up the aim buff.
    Okay, so what does your intended Engineer rule look like?
    Something like:

    Modified Engineer wrote:

    21.A.a.7 Engineer (X+)
    Once per Movement Phase, (unengaged?) Engineers may select a (single?) War Machine within 6″ (same range requirement?) and:
    • can heal one wound for free on a war machine
    • if it gives up its engineer special rule, it can heal it to maximum health and also remove any misfire effects.

    Once per Shooting Phase, an unengaged Engineer may select a single War
    Machine within 6″ that has not fired yet to gain the following effects:
    • Set the Aim of one of the War Machine’s Artillery Weapons to the value given in brackets (X+).
    • You may reroll the roll on the Misfire Table .
    • You may reroll the dice (all of them or none) for determining the number of hits of a Flamethrower Artillery Weapon
    Seems like a lot of text for just one rule.
    Also seems rather incredible how many things this mundane engineer can do.

    Yes, this is what I had in mind.

    Once per movement phase, an unengaged engineer may choose a single war machine within 6''. This war machine automatically recovers one wound. In addition, the engineer may choose to give up its Engineer (X+) special rule until the start of the next Player Turn. If it does so, the selected war machine recovers 2 more wounds, and any misfire effects that apply to that war machine are ignored for the rest of the game (any new misfire effects would still apply).

    I changed it from return to full health to recover 2 extra wounds (to a total of 3). He can do it if he moved, because it just makes the game more interesting for both you and your opponent. Otherwise it would just motivate people to castle up and not move at all, which is not an enjoyable experience in my opinion.
    I don't think this is an unusual or problematic amount of text.


    Hombre de Mundo wrote:

    Not a bad idea. It does kinda suck when you misfire and can't use the war machine for the rest of the game on turn one and having an engineer could be a backup for this. Perhaps an upgrade that costs a certain amount of points.

    That's what I had in mind. When you misfire it is nice to be able to do something about it with some cost (losing the engineer buff).
  • Does this look like what you are thinking?

    Loremaster wrote:


    21.A.a.7 Engineer (X+)
    Once per Movement Phase, an unengaged Engineer may select a single War Machine within 6″ and:
    • heal one wound on a war machine
    Engineer may further choose to heal 2 more wounds (3 healed in total)
    and remove any misfire effects on the selected War Marchine. If they do,
    they no longer are considered to have the Engineer (X+) rule for the rest
    of the game.


    Once per Shooting Phase, an unengaged Engineer may select a single War
    Machine within 6″ that has not fired yet to gain the following effects:
    • Set the Aim of one of the War Machine’s Artillery Weapons to the value given in brackets (X+).
    • You may reroll the roll on the Misfire Table .
    • You may reroll the dice (all of them or none) for determining the number of hits of a Flamethrower Artillery Weapon

    My only objection is that I don't understand the fluff of this rule change.

    I mean, the single engineer can Advance/March to, Repair the cannon of damage sustained, cast spells (if they have them), use their own shooting attacks, plus Aim a Cannon, all in a single turn?

    Seems kinda super-human. Makes sense for 40k Tech Marine, but seems kinda super powered for a mundane human or dwarf whose using quasi medieval tech.
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by Chronocide ().

  • Chronocide - Yes, this is how it looks, except he loses the Engineer (X+) rule not for the rest of the game, just for the rest of the turn (so basically can't use it in the following shooting phase).

    I think that makes sense if we assume that a game turn can represent a decent chunk of time. Maybe 10 minutes, 20 minutes, or maybe even a couple hours - depending on the scale of the combat. And this seems to me like enough time for a skilled engineer to jury-rig a broken machine and making it combat operational in time pressure.
    Think about the fact that a wizard can march, cast a spell, and shoot all at the same turn (if they have light troops). So presumably the time it takes the wizard to cast the spell is the time the engineer repairs the machine. And if you feel like doing field repairs takes longer than casting a spell, you can impose the restrictions above - can't do it if he marched, and can't shoot if he does it.

    The post was edited 5 times, last by Loremaster ().

  • Loremaster wrote:

    No, he loses the Engineer (X+) rule not for the rest of the game, just for the rest of the turn (so basically can't use it in the following shooting phase).

    I think that makes sense if we assume that a game turn can represent a decent chunk of time. Maybe 10 minutes, 20 minutes, or maybe even a couple hours - depending on the scale of the combat. And this seems to me like enough time for a skilled engineer to jury-rig a broken machine and making it combat operational in time pressure.
    Think about the fact that a wizard can march, cast a spell, and shoot all at the same turn (if they have light troops). So presumably the time it takes the wizard to cast the spell is the time the engineer repairs the machine. And if you feel like doing field repairs takes longer than casting a spell, you can impose the restrictions above - can't do it if he marched, and can't shoot if he does it.
    Are mundane medieval engineers really comparable to wizards?

    Also, in your fluff understanding, how does healing work on the warmachines? I see removing misfires as jurying rigging, but how does healing come in? It's not broken if it still has wounds left, not like the warmachines have a degrading profile.

    I kinda feel like the engineer healing should be repairing via bound spells, at this point. Ever seen Team Fortress 2's Engineer? Starting to feel like that is your idea of what the engineer should be.

    Which isn't really a problem, but does seem like it's different from what is presented in the armies. Perhaps make an army specific "super" engineer? Make your own unit thread is here: 9th Scroll Community Engagement Competition #2
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  • Loremaster wrote:

    Chronocide - Yes, this is how it looks, except he loses the Engineer (X+) rule not for the rest of the game, just for the rest of the turn (so basically can't use it in the following shooting phase).

    I think that makes sense if we assume that a game turn can represent a decent chunk of time. Maybe 10 minutes, 20 minutes, or maybe even a couple hours - depending on the scale of the combat. And this seems to me like enough time for a skilled engineer to jury-rig a broken machine and making it combat operational in time pressure.
    Think about the fact that a wizard can march, cast a spell, and shoot all at the same turn (if they have light troops). So presumably the time it takes the wizard to cast the spell is the time the engineer repairs the machine. And if you feel like doing field repairs takes longer than casting a spell, you can impose the restrictions above - can't do it if he marched, and can't shoot if he does it.
  • Lol, ignore my previous message, I accidentally quoted myself and then posted it.

    Healing comes from the fact that when a war machine takes damage, it represents damage to the actual machinery, and this is something the engineer can repair. Like in an RTS game where workers can repair vehicles. In fact, I don't see a reason why he shouldn't be able to heal a wound on any construct for free each turn.

    I don't think it needs to be a super engineer. I think part of the training of a combat engineer should be how to quickly repair broken war machines during combat and as quickly as possible. The fact you pay a decent chunk of points for the engineer represents that he is an extremely skilled individual who is master of crafting, so he can come up with an ingenious solution to the damage some war machine has taken. Maybe the cannon's barrel got twisted, and he hammers it back in shape using a special tool he has, or a trebuchet's support scaffolding collapsed and he instructs the workers how to prop the throwing arm of the trebuchet into a nearby tree, thus replacing the original support scaffolding. Quick and ingenious solutions that require experience and talent. Seems reasonable to me that this is what you pay for when you buy an engineer.

    To represent the fact that this is a hustled field repair, maybe he can roll a dice, and on a roll of 2+ he achieves the desired effect of removing misfire effects, and on a roll of 1, the attempt fails and maybe the machine takes a wound.

    That said, the idea of a super engineer with bound spells is a good one. Maybe he can do things like power up other units' weapons or plant bombs or something.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Loremaster ().

  • Loremaster wrote:

    Healing comes from the fact that when a war machine takes damage, it represents damage to the actual machinery, and this is something the engineer can repair. Like in an RTS game where workers can repair vehicles. In fact, I don't see a reason why he shouldn't be able to heal a wound on any construct for free each turn.
    For medieval tech, the idea that you can shoot the cannon every turn is downright science fiction.

    Being able to fire almost any of the medieval artllery weapons at a moving target is science fiction.

    Engineers as portrayed in RTS games are fictional concept.

    Having the Engineer be the guy that can assists with aiming or better avoid misfires, that's something an expertly trained medieval siege engineer could do with medieval artillery.


    If you want a super/RTS engineer, go for it, but I don't think the T9A Engineer rule is meant to reflect that level of competency.
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  • Ok, fair enough. I don't know enough about ancient combat engineering to have an opinion about this.
    But you said it yourself - the fact that war machines can shoot moving targets is science fiction. I 100% agree. If it was up to me, you could only shoot things that have a large enough footprint (let's say at least 100x50mm wide), because otherwise it should be impossible to hit anything.
    And also, the tech level in the 9th universe is far more advanced than medieval. Remember, they have helicopters, repeater guns, rockets, even tanks... so I assume they have quite sophisticated levels of tech, not some medieval engineer that builds a mangonel.
  • Loremaster wrote:

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    When you say "fix when it's broken", do you mean resurrect the thing?
    No.
    Okay good.

    So letting the engineer basically make the weapon unable to misfire seems a bit much when it's in addition to all the other abilities the engineer provides. However we can take that idea in a less having your cake and eating it direction. eg.

    Engineer (X+)
    Once per Shooting Phase, an unengaged Engineer may select a single War Machine within 6″ that has not fired yet togain one of the following effects:
    • Set the Aim of one of the War Machine’s Artillery Weapons to the value given in brackets (X+).
    • You may reroll the roll on the Misfire Table.
    • Allow a machine to shoot that normally cannot.
    • Heal 1hp worth of damage to the War machine.

    You get your cake, you get to eat it, but you're only allowed once slice each turn, not four.
    A "super" engineer could let you more than one on the list.

    Loremaster wrote:

    To represent the fact that this is a hustled field repair, maybe he can roll a dice, and on a roll of 2+ he achieves the desired effect of removing misfire effects,
    We don't do that sort of thing here in T9A, having things fail ruins games. (the community really doesn't like these sorts of suggestions)

    Loremaster wrote:

    and on a roll of 1, the attempt fails and maybe the machine takes a wound.
    That's basically hate-speech as far as most people here in T9A are concerned. (the community really hates suggestions where the fail state has an actually negative effect).
  • Loremaster wrote:

    Ok, fair enough. I don't know enough about ancient combat engineering to have an opinion about this.
    But you said it yourself - the fact that war machines can shoot moving targets is science fiction. I 100% agree. If it was up to me, you could only shoot things that have a large enough footprint (let's say at least 100x50mm wide), because otherwise it should be impossible to hit anything.
    And also, the tech level in the 9th universe is far more advanced than medieval. Remember, they have helicopters, repeater guns, rockets, even tanks... so I assume they have quite sophisticated levels of tech, not some medieval engineer that builds a mangonel.
    Dwarves maybe. The Human tech is pretty limited. And the tech would likely be something that the various guilds are secretive about, rather than sharing on the internet so that anyone could make it. It's like how now, it's hard to find do-it-yourself guides on enriching uranium - it can be done, but they want that stuff secret (and I'm glad).

    So your Engineer might be a smart person, but they're limited by what their guild sanctioned actions are. The setting has the higher grades of tech, yes, but they don't share it. State secrets and such. How the rockets work, for example, is probably a closely guarded secret.

    A modern engineer is more creative than a medieval engineer is allowed to be. Free thinking is not encouraged.

    Stupid, right? But that's the medieval world. You've got people that think the solution to disease is bloodletting. And you can't fix everything, especially with enemies besieging you on all sides. So you let most of the people stay uninformed, provided they pay you taxes and you focus on the tech that matters to your immediate threats, likely only understanding how to re-create the tech based on a recipe, unlikely understanding the reason the recipe works.

    Sad, maybe, but eventually someone wins and the winners get enough peace to get out of the medieval period.

    Have you looked at some of the medieval castles. The way the toliets works? It's a hole built on a slant where the human waste is slides into the city, either into their drinking water or into the residential portion of the city. That's medieval engineering.

    Here:
    stephenbiesty.co.uk/jpegs/bigCastle.jpg
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by Chronocide ().

  • theunwantedbeing wrote:


    Engineer (X+)

    Once per Shooting Phase, an unengaged Engineer may select a single War Machine within 6″ that has not fired yet togain one of the following effects:
    • Set the Aim of one of the War Machine’s Artillery Weapons to the value given in brackets (X+).
    • You may reroll the roll on the Misfire Table.
    • Allow a machine to shoot that normally cannot.
    • Heal 1hp worth of damage to the War machine.
    I like it better than what I had suggested initially. The difference from my suggestion is that the Breakdown effect (can't shoot for the rest of the game) you can't just fix it with one turn of losing the engineer effect - you have to lose the engineer effect every turn you want to shoot it.


    theunwantedbeing wrote:



    Loremaster wrote:

    To represent the fact that this is a hustled field repair, maybe he can roll a dice, and on a roll of 2+ he achieves the desired effect of removing misfire effects,
    We don't do that sort of thing here in T9A, having things fail ruins games. (the community really doesn't like these sorts of suggestions)

    Loremaster wrote:

    and on a roll of 1, the attempt fails and maybe the machine takes a wound.
    That's basically hate-speech as far as most people here in T9A are concerned. (the community really hates suggestions where the fail state has an actually negative effect).

    Ok, it's not like I'm advocating having things fail or anything, I wasn't even aware of this issue. I just threw it as a suggestion to make the ability weaker if it turns out being too strong. We can just have the war machine take a discipline test and if it passes then then it can shoot this turn.

    Chronocide wrote:

    Loremaster wrote:

    Ok, fair enough. I don't know enough about ancient combat engineering to have an opinion about this.
    But you said it yourself - the fact that war machines can shoot moving targets is science fiction. I 100% agree. If it was up to me, you could only shoot things that have a large enough footprint (let's say at least 100x50mm wide), because otherwise it should be impossible to hit anything.
    And also, the tech level in the 9th universe is far more advanced than medieval. Remember, they have helicopters, repeater guns, rockets, even tanks... so I assume they have quite sophisticated levels of tech, not some medieval engineer that builds a mangonel.
    Dwarves maybe. The Human tech is pretty limited. And the tech would likely be something that the various guilds are secretive about, rather than sharing on the internet so that anyone could make it. It's like how now, it's hard to find do-it-yourself guides on enriching uranium - it can be done, but they want that stuff secret (and I'm glad).
    So your Engineer might be a smart person, but they're limited by what their guild sanctioned actions are. The setting has the higher grades of tech, yes, but they don't share it. State secrets and such. How the rockets work, for example, is probably a closely guarded secret.

    A modern engineer is more creative than a medieval engineer is allowed to be. Free thinking is not encouraged.

    Stupid, right? But that's the medieval world. You've got people that think the solution to disease is bloodletting. And you can't fix everything, especially with enemies besieging you on all sides. So you let most of the people stay uninformed, provided they pay you taxes and you focus on the tech that matters to your immediate threats, likely only understanding how to re-create the tech based on a recipe, unlikely understanding the reason the recipe works.

    Sad, maybe, but eventually someone wins and the winners get enough peace to get out of the medieval period.

    Have you looked at some of the medieval castles. The way the toliets works? It's a hole built on a slant where the human waste is slides into the city, either into their drinking water or into the residential portion of the city. That's medieval engineering.

    Here:
    stephenbiesty.co.uk/jpegs/bigCastle.jpg

    Humans have tanks, rockets, and semi automatic guns. That's maybe less advanced than dwarves, but still much more than medieval level tech. And presumably the engineer belongs to some kind of guild that is responsible for manufacturing these things, so it stands to reason that he has access to such seceret knowledge. Characters are supposed to represent exceptional individuals whose prowess can turn the tide of battle, so why shouldn't he be a top notch engineer?
    So I totally understand what you're saying about medieval level thinking. What I say is that I don't think it applies to an engineer character.