KoE Unit/Model ideas for LAB

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  • StoffenDK wrote:

    Kreln wrote:

    Clerics(monks) with prayers simiular to Eos Prelates.. I proposed this couple yrs ago. I think they should be 'fighty' wizards with bound spells as buffs for knights and peasants.
    Id Really like to see a warrior cleric unit. Different to EoS ofc. Are all KoE wizards female in the coming background? @Henrypmiller
    KoE background is currently under construction. There are lots of ideas going around but how they Will translate to rules or gender I do not know.

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  • Kreln wrote:

    I think KoE Knights should all get the ability to have a chance of a charge bonus every turn. Maybe a simple Dis check or maybe something else but they need a boost! I dont think KoE needs 'new' models and units.I just think the most existing ones need a Re-work. I'm only suggesting a Monk/Cleric Character as Our character section seems really poor compared to other armies. Units wise I would only add/change Men at Arms unit entry. A professional peasant infantry.
    I'm not sure I agree with every unit getting it, it'd cause some units to be priced into oblivion. It's also an opportunity to allow us some more differentiation between knight units. That's why I suggest tying it to a lighter armoured unit, creates differentiation between units and gives a reason why the older knights don't have the ability (they're too heavily armoured to pull it off). The way I see the book is something like.

    Peasants- pretty much keep as is, perhaps a slightly less awful unit to represent castle guard (after all who patrols them currently), could be the sons of wealthy merchants etc.

    Knights aspirant- lighter Armoured, frenzy or something representing their recklessness, a cycle charge rule to make them better at grinding, our most 'infantry esque' unit.

    Knights of the realm- a conventional line breaker unit, heavily armoured shock cavalry that are deadly on the charge. Obviously should still bounce off big blocks but should smash through small unit and medium units. Should flounder if they don't break the enemy on the charge.

    Knights of the quest- Perhaps more specialised then they are now, further bonuses Vs large and gigantic. But should be a niche unit that struggles more against rnf, kinda like a KOE 'cannon'.

    Cataphracts- A semi elite grind unit, slower than normal cav (6/12) but no devestating charge bonus, minimal output but high DS, armour and parry or something.

    Knights of the grail- As they are now, up there with warrior knights, vampire knights and ryma knights as the finest cavalry in T9A. However I'd change their fluff to have touched or witnessed the grail instead of drinking from it, thus only getting a portion of their power.

    Paladin- Name will probably be changed but equivalent hero level character.

    Duke/paladin- See them sharing a stat line with them purchasing one of the two upgrades, one lending itself to cc and one lending itself to more unit buffing/LD.
    Grail companion- A grail knight who has actually supped from the grail, lets us have our above human level lord who's a cc monster. Should still fall short of chaos lords and vampire lords but with the right gear and virtues be able to go head to head with them.
  • I'm not saying that all units need a rule overhaul. Some units just need a points adjustment eg. Green Knight. and some units need a total redesign eg. Peasant Crusaders.I wouldn't like to add too many things in the LAB maybe an extra character choice (Monk/Cleric). I think some units are fine as the are eg. Brigants. Some units like P.Bowmen just need the minimum number reduced to 10... and so on. My biggest issue is the overall preformance of KoE Knightsas they are the backbone of the army. That should be the main issue addressed in LAB
  • "charge again name"
    When this unit charged:
    At the end of combat roll a d6 and add or subtracted the combat modifier on 7+ this unit counts as charging, against enemies it charged before, in the next melee round.
    This effect works in every turn until you fail once

                    

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  • As a further musing I was considering something like the following piece of wargear.
    Equitaine lance - The Lance's used by the Knights of equitaine are incredibly cumbersome to other factions, their sheer size making them difficult to use. However the knights practice with them from childhood and have become proficient in their use.
    Any model using an Equitaine lance suffers a -1 to hit, however they may also re roll all failed to hit rolls.

    So a bit of a weird one, technically a very small buff to the amount of hits. The main idea being though that it stops the massive unreliability of charges. 4+ to hit with a S6 weapon is super swingy and breaking it into two rolls helps with that. The obvious downsides are that
    A. It's a lot of text for minimal change
    B. It would stack ridiculously well with battle focus
    But the plus sides are
    A. Helps minimise rubber lance
    B. Gives us a rule that says 'omg our knights are super good at jousting look' without buffing their output to beyond human levels with lightning reflexes/hatred.
  • So hitting on 4+ turns to 5+ with a reroll

    Mathematically 10 Attacks would go from hitting on 50% to 45%.


    Hitting on 3+ turns to hitting on 4+ with reroll changes from 66% to 75%.

    But the knights hit almost nothing in the game on a 3+. Anything with Parry or Def 4+ results in a Nerf so that you are better against trash troops fielded without HW+Shield.

    So it is actually worse on rubber Lance. The only unit this helps is Grails.

    We could get the same even amount of change from Reroll 1's to hit.
  • I think 5+ re rolling is actually a 56% chance to hit so an increase of ~6%. Re rolling ones is about an ~8% increase when hitting on 4's so yes a slightly better buff.

    However like I said the intent wasn't to buff their output but to make it less swingy. It's a subjective thing but rolling two lots of dice to me feels a lot safer and less swingy than just a 4+ to hit. We've all been there where 12 lance attacks get just 2/3 hits, this is meant to help alleviate that.

    Re rolling ones could achieve a similar effect and be much less complex for sure. But it's an ideas thread so I was just spitballing something different to the norm that could help with the issues of rubber lance.
  • Another idea taken out of historic times:

    To become a knight, the Squire (applicant) had to be able to economically support 3 horses. Then he could be put into knight status with all the privilegs and duties.
    Many couldn't. Those guys still were fully equipped and were called "Noblemen" in England, in Germany "Edelknechte". Most of the time they were in the duty of higher nobility.
    Some historians say, there have been times with more noblemen than knights, because many wanted to get around the duties of a knight.

    My idea is, that these "noblemen" could build the grinding unit the KoE are missing.

    The green knight should be called "mystic knight" or "ancestral knight". Then color does not matter and the creation of single models would become a matter of creativity.
  • Menyiscilla wrote:

    The green knight should be called "mystic knight" or "ancestral knight". Then color does not matter and the creation of single models would become a matter of creativity.
    The Green Knight is not simply a matter of color, but of folklore/legend. In arthurian legend there is a story told of Gawain and the Green Knight. Said Green Knight was a supernatural being, able to pick up his head after he was decapitated, put it back on his neck and move on as if nothing happend. Not only the colors and sigil of the knight was green, but also his hair and beard. He was a symbol of rebirth similar to the Green Man.
    Stone: "Nerf Paper, it is overpowered. Scissors are well balanced."

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  • Ringil wrote:

    As a further musing I was considering something like the following piece of wargear.
    Equitaine lance - The Lance's used by the Knights of equitaine are incredibly cumbersome to other factions, their sheer size making them difficult to use. However the knights practice with them from childhood and have become proficient in their use.
    Any model using an Equitaine lance suffers a -1 to hit, however they may also re roll all failed to hit rolls.

    So a bit of a weird one, technically a very small buff to the amount of hits. The main idea being though that it stops the massive unreliability of charges. 4+ to hit with a S6 weapon is super swingy and breaking it into two rolls helps with that. The obvious downsides are that
    A. It's a lot of text for minimal change
    B. It would stack ridiculously well with battle focus
    But the plus sides are
    A. Helps minimise rubber lance
    B. Gives us a rule that says 'omg our knights are super good at jousting look' without buffing their output to beyond human levels with lightning reflexes/hatred.

    echoCTRL wrote:

    So hitting on 4+ turns to 5+ with a reroll

    Mathematically 10 Attacks would go from hitting on 50% to 45%.


    Hitting on 3+ turns to hitting on 4+ with reroll changes from 66% to 75%.

    But the knights hit almost nothing in the game on a 3+. Anything with Parry or Def 4+ results in a Nerf so that you are better against trash troops fielded without HW+Shield.

    So it is actually worse on rubber Lance. The only unit this helps is Grails.

    We could get the same even amount of change from Reroll 1's to hit.

    Ringil wrote:

    I think 5+ re rolling is actually a 56% chance to hit so an increase of ~6%. Re rolling ones is about an ~8% increase when hitting on 4's so yes a slightly better buff.

    However like I said the intent wasn't to buff their output but to make it less swingy. It's a subjective thing but rolling two lots of dice to me feels a lot safer and less swingy than just a 4+ to hit. We've all been there where 12 lance attacks get just 2/3 hits, this is meant to help alleviate that.

    Re rolling ones could achieve a similar effect and be much less complex for sure. But it's an ideas thread so I was just spitballing something different to the norm that could help with the issues of rubber lance.
    It is still a very interssting idea.

    10 attacks on 5+ = 3.33 hits + reroll = 2.23 hits = 5.523
    10 attacks on 4+ = 5 hits
    buff 5%

    so yeah you did slip your math. His idea is new, original and works, is also not really a plain powercreep

    One thing i could see bad is that if people have distracting or so on them (where we already hit on 5+) would give us to hit on 6+ and this feels really bad


    math
    10 attacks on 6+ reroll = 1.66+1,4 =3,06
    10 attacks on 5+ = 3.33

    It makes mathwise sense but could "feel" bad
    So here we have a nerf by 9%


    But if we buuld the army around it, it could also be quite rewarding. Battlefocus comes to mind which would make this quite fun

                    

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  • Because distracting can't be stacked with other negative to hit modifiers, it'd actually be a stealth buff against distracting, though that wasn't my intent. (I guess it could be argued it's hard to dodge a lance and an armoured horse hitting you at full tilt??)

    Like Klexe pointed out the change in output is negligible. The intent of the rule however isn't to buff or nerf the charge output itself, but instead to make it more reliable so that one bad dice role doesn't scupper your whole game plan.
    Of course bad dice rolls are part of a dice game, but I feel KoE in particular really need their charges to have an effect and not bounce as it's such an integral part of the army. A flat +1 to hit/hatred makes them feel above and beyond human however, as well as calling for a steep price increase (making us even more vulnerable to toxic attacks/alchemy), I'm hoping something like this could provide a good middle ground.
  • Why not give Castellan more choice? I think this character can have a lot of customization potential.

    These are some examples:

    The Castillan can choose only one option and it is one of a kind.
    • The Juggler: Gain the rule Musician and set the range of March to the Beat to 12". The model can cast Altered Sight (Cosmology) asa Bound Spell with Power Level (4/8).
    • The Jester: The model gains Distracting rule. Also R&F models of a unit containing a Jester get the rule Distracting in the First Round of Combat.
    • Master Mason: The model gains the rule Engineer.
    • Sheriff: The model’s Discipline Tests are subject to Minimised Roll.
    • Monk: The model gain Divine Attacks and Magic Resistance (1).He can cast Guiding Light (Divination) as a Bound Spell with Power Level (4/8).
    Ok, more or less this is the idea.

    That is all
  • setrius wrote:

    Why not give Castellan more choice? I think this character can have a lot of customization potential.

    These are some examples:

    The Castillan can choose only one option and it is one of a kind.
    • The Juggler: Gain the rule Musician and set the range of March to the Beat to 12". The model can cast Altered Sight (Cosmology) asa Bound Spell with Power Level (4/8).
    • The Jester: The model gains Distracting rule. Also R&F models of a unit containing a Jester get the rule Distracting in the First Round of Combat.
    • Master Mason: The model gains the rule Engineer.
    • Sheriff: The model’s Discipline Tests are subject to Minimised Roll.
    • Monk: The model gain Divine Attacks and Magic Resistance (1).He can cast Guiding Light (Divination) as a Bound Spell with Power Level (4/8).
    Ok, more or less this is the idea.

    That is all
    After reading many homebrew and infos from background team i think you will be pleased that it is quite certain he will become more important

    Nothing official just my observation

                    

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  • Ringil wrote:

    As a further musing I was considering something like the following piece of wargear.
    Equitaine lance - The Lance's used by the Knights of equitaine are incredibly cumbersome to other factions, their sheer size making them difficult to use. However the knights practice with them from childhood and have become proficient in their use.
    Any model using an Equitaine lance suffers a -1 to hit, however they may also re roll all failed to hit rolls.

    So a bit of a weird one, technically a very small buff to the amount of hits. The main idea being though that it stops the massive unreliability of charges. 4+ to hit with a S6 weapon is super swingy and breaking it into two rolls helps with that. The obvious downsides are that
    A. It's a lot of text for minimal change
    B. It would stack ridiculously well with battle focus
    But the plus sides are
    A. Helps minimise rubber lance
    B. Gives us a rule that says 'omg our knights are super good at jousting look' without buffing their output to beyond human levels with lightning reflexes/hatred.
    i really like this

    I would not make a weapon for it and would give the option to the player to use it or not because you dont want to nerf yourself when using divination for rerrols or hereditary.

    Jousting
    A model with this rule using a Lance and counting as charging may suffer a -1 to hit to be able to reroll failed hits until end of turn.The model may not choose to suffer -1 to hit if it already has this effect for another rule or spell effect.

    ( because bypassing distracting or fear is not cool )
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  • I think mechanically that would work better, but fluff wise it's kinda annoys me that they can pick and choose when to use it. But you're right it shouldn't ignore distracting and fear.
    Perhaps just a sentence saying 'this does not count as a negative to hit modifier for the purpose of other special rules' could fix it?

    In terms of stars align there'd still be plenty of targets, namely units not charging or units not equipped with an Equitaine lance.