What SE currently lacks

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  • New

    Firthunands91 wrote:

    Or Treefathers, or Kestrels, or Huntsmen.
    Let's try another time. Things that counter single model spam:

    Your own single models: Ancient, Avatar, non Character Tree father, Wild Hunter, Dragon. Check.

    Glass Cannon Cavalry: Huntsmen, Kestrels. Check.

    Easy access to High Strength and AP all around. Check.

    So yeah, you are basically lacking Warmachines and Sniping Spells. Yet you are one of the 6 armies with access to Dragons, and have plenty of AP all around and the double Strength buff, that only you and HbE have (well, and EoS with the Engine).

    Again, everyone has their tools, you saying I'm arguing against something then ignoring half of the tools you have access too, that is exactly my point, doesn't make sense to me.
    Huntsmen and Kestrels are not effective tools for dealing with cowboys.

    Huntsmen can zone most monsters fairly well, but can't effectively hunt them down due to frenzy, and they simply can't handle cowboys effectively at all.

    Kestrels just aren't very effective against single models at all.

    As for High S and AP, you do realise that treefathers are our only source of S6 which doesn't come out of characters budget?

    Even including access to double S buff spells, I' m fairly certain that we have the worst access to high Strength attacks of any army by a significant margin.

    I'm not as certain about this, but I think we also have the worst access to multiple wound attacks of any army too. Just Divination, a weak magic bow, and Treefather crush attacks (and Potion of Strength crush attack of course).
    My SE homebrew (New version 7/6/2020)
  • New

    @Firthunands91 I just want to reiterate this.

    It's not necessarily even about getting MORE tools to deal with single models (although I do think we could use a couple more), but rather about spreading the effective counters around the book a bit more, like making even a single shooty unit effective against them.
    My SE homebrew (New version 7/6/2020)
  • New

    Lets imagine that my enemie is drunked and had a hard party last night, so I can cast my doble strenght on my WH.
    Again, 3 bodies can attack, 9 attacks with battlefocus going on 3, lets say 6 impacts?, resilence 5 strenght 7, 5 wounds, saving on 4 aegis (I’m not counting 6armour), 2,5 wounds.
    Kestrels are a joke if we compare them and they attack with agi 6 (vampire kill many before).
    That’s with doble buff
    Idk you compare treefather, avatar and infantery, you are not going to catch enemie cowboy, maybe zone it, but good enemie is not going to charge...

    We have enough tools against monsters but cowboys... too much power in just one little body.
  • New

    Firthunands91 wrote:

    CariadocThorne wrote:

    Again, the complaint you are arguing against is not the one being made.
    The problem is not "I don't want to have to pick units which are actually effective against single models".

    The problem is all our genuinely effective tools against single models are either characters or combat infantry.
    Or Treefathers, or Kestrels, or Huntsmen.
    Let's try another time. Things that counter single model spam:

    Your own single models: Ancient, Avatar, non Character Tree father, Wild Hunter, Dragon. Check.

    Glass Cannon Cavalry: Huntsmen, Kestrels. Check.

    Easy access to High Strength and AP all around. Check.

    So yeah, you are basically lacking Warmachines and Sniping Spells. Yet you are one of the 6 armies with access to Dragons, and have plenty of AP all around and the double Strength buff, that only you and HbE have (well, and EoS with the Engine).

    Again, everyone has their tools, you saying I'm arguing against something then ignoring half of the tools you have access too, that is exactly my point, doesn't make sense to me.
    Fact of the matter is that most of those things trade evenly at best against monsters or cowboys and are melee only. Furthermore most of these units can only tackle certain single models as Treefathers, Bladedancers, Huntsmen, characters are all fairly limited in regards to what targets they can hurt

    You’ll also notice that most of these choices are fairly slow. Most monsters and characters have little trouble dancing around SE and thats the Core of the problem. Especially if monsters are spammed

    Its not impossible for SE to kill monsters, but I gotta say I consider them the Army worst equipped to handle them. Heck my all-Goblin OnG army probably have better stuff for killing monsters in the Core section alone ;)
  • New

    CariadocThorne wrote:

    @Firthunands91 I just want to reiterate this.

    It's not necessarily even about getting MORE tools to deal with single models (although I do think we could use a couple more), but rather about spreading the effective counters around the book a bit more, like making even a single shooty unit effective against them.
    It’d be interesting to get a banner of poison +1. Put it on sentinels or Maidens to get 5+ poison hits. Pathfinders for poison with decent AP etc etc.

    Would allow us to spread some of that plinking of wounds into other units.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • New

    Wesser wrote:

    Fact of the matter is that most of those things trade evenly at best against monsters or cowboys and are melee only. Furthermore most of these units can only tackle certain single models as Treefathers, Bladedancers, Huntsmen, characters are all fairly limited in regards to what targets they can hurt
    You’ll also notice that most of these choices are fairly slow. Most monsters and characters have little trouble dancing around SE and thats the Core of the problem. Especially if monsters are spammed

    Its not impossible for SE to kill monsters, but I gotta say I consider them the Army worst equipped to handle them. Heck my all-Goblin OnG army probably have better stuff for killing monsters in the Core section alone ;)
    Yeah lets argument that a 5/10 Monster is fairly slow to catch monsters, but on foot Goblins are better.

    And to the guy making the maths on Huntsmen, yeah, a unit of 350pts doing 2.5W on average to a 1+4++ Cowboy is a bad result. LOL. Do the maths with any other model to see if they come even close. A Minotaur Warlord with Blessed Inscriptions is about as killy as you can get, worth around 700pts, and averages what? 1.5W? A Feldrak Elder, one of the models forum users are complaining the most, 0,66W. A smashing Dragon Seeker, 1.66. If your expectations are killing one of the most resilient models out there in a single go, well, I can see how you are dissapointed. But then again, SE has the tools to do so.

    Sure Kestrels are worse agaisnt Cowboys because of their footprint. But they also are probably one of the best Cavalry units in game because of Vanguard, Fly, M9/18, Hard Target, Feigned Flight, and their versatility. And to a T6 3+ Monster, 5 of them with Champion (Around 480pts) do 3W average, without a single Strength Buff. With one of those, they average 5.7W. At agility 6/5. What a terrible choice indeed. Let's say that for whatever reason you had already make a Wound or two on said Monster, because you have Sentinels, or regular arrows (20 Archers will do 0.833W on a row, so yeah, can happen), or a Magic Spell... What are his options in that game then?

    In my opinion SE shooting is quite overcosted, probably because it's hard to balance. But other than poison for Monsters, and their Magical Bows needing a better design to be worth it, plus Swarm of Insects and Divi Spells, I don't think SE should have better Ranged tools to deal with Monsters. You are not a faction with Warmachines. And they tank cowboys that are so common nowadays, yeah you either have Snipes, or you beat them with Combat Result. Since you, as more than half of the books don't have Evo/Occultism, welcome to the world of pain we are currently living.



    Anyways, looks like our opinions are just too different, to the point it looks we are playing another game. I'll just unsubscribe and save you from dealing with mine. Sorry for the mess.
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  • New

    Well, 350 points and 2 +1 strenght. So you have to:
    -Charge with WH and don’t get chaffed.
    -Be in range of both spells.
    -Enemie has to don’t dispell them (maybe he prefers to dispell mosquitoes).
    And ofc enemie did 0 to WH on magic phase, quite difficult because they are goblins on elk...

    Anyway, we have enough tools and I don’t know why in every single tournament there’s not a SE with 80 points...
  • New

    Firthunands91 wrote:

    And to the guy making the maths on Huntsmen, yeah, a unit of 350pts doing 2.5W on average to a 1+4++ Cowboy is a bad result. LOL. Do the maths with any other model to see if they come even close.
    That's 2.5W with double S buff. So a 350pt unit supported by at least 2 mages... (and how often do SE get 2 spells off in one turn, let alone 2 Strength buffs?)

    Now calculate that minotaur warlord and FDE with the best two buff spells available cast on them.

    With no buff WH do about 0.5W on the charge against the cowboy.
    My SE homebrew (New version 7/6/2020)
  • New

    Just_Flo wrote:

    And would make SA players cry for the head of who ever gave it to you and not to them ;)
    We could have our own version of “HBE bathing in the tears of SE” but instead of getting everything SA were asking for we’d only be getting one thing... yeah, I’m still grumpy about that. :)
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • New

    Has anyone tried more specialized builds? I know everyone loves the elk lord with sylvan blades and titanic might, but that only gives you AP3. What if you had a lance/GW with king slayer? You'd have AP5 essentially nullifying that 1+ armour save on enemy solo characters and then it's just the special save you have to worry about. I'm sure you could come up with better builds than that, I'm just saying that SE may not have high access to str6 but we DO have good access to higher AP than most other armies and maybe we need to lean into that.
    I play SE, EoS, DH, UD, and KoE and use the units I like, not necessarily the best ones

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  • New

    poison does not fit SE that well imho. That banner would be muche better for SA or goblins.
    Lethal strike or +1 to wound better fits SE

    Also sure WH may do non-negligeable damages on a cowboy, but they get wiped in return so you're loosing the fight anyway, and you can't prentively do significative damages at range to permits WH to have a good chance of finishing the monster before retaliation.

    And more generally, except our own monsters, no unit in the book can take a phase of damage from a cowboy without being whipped or fleeing.
    Maybe BD in a forest with aegis dance, but only for a turn and only if not doing any damage.
    So unless you can kill the monster/cowboy in a single turn, which shouldn't be possible because it makes games boring, you can't beat them without your own monsters. That's why I'm playing dragon Lord (+Treefather) most of my games: It's the only thing that can keep cowboy at bay.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Serwyn ().

  • New

    SE need turtles. Like a Tortise or Turtle unit. It would just fit.

    Maybe go the neverending story route and give them a giant 150mm square super giant turtle.


    Oh, maybe the turtle could count as a forest because it would a forest growing on it's back. A living, moving forest.

    EDIT: Hmm...suppose I could just model the free forest as a giant turtle with a forest on it's back...
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    The post was edited 2 times, last by Chronocide ().

  • New

    I’m still keen for an Aged Oak with M0 / Res 7 and a large buff aura to represent an Oak tree spreading its branches and shading an area to darkness.

    Fighting under the Boughs: Friendly models within 18 inches of Aged Oak receive Hard Target (-1 To be Hit?) when targeted by ranged attacks from outside the aura.
    Enemy Units outside the aura must use a minimised roll when rolling for charge distance when charging units effected by this aura.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Fleshbeast ().