What SE currently lacks

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  • What SE currently lacks

    I'd like to open discussion about current state of SE.

    In first post 'd like to compare our kindreds upgrade option to HE honours. In my opinion kindreds are very often downgrades that we pay for (minding all the restrictions that they've).


    Small comparison (most of SE:
    ShapeshifterCan't join units (only model in the game?) on foot only
    Wild HunterFrenzy and -2 do DefWS
    PathfinderBSB can't take this kindred (compare to Queen's Companion)
    on foot only
    Blade dancercan join only Blade dancers, can't use shooting weapons
    on foot only
    Forest Guardianon foot only
    2 Magic bowsboth conditional
    Hail Shotworse then ever - should use bearers aim - instead has all shooting modifiers (actually that's the only thing in SE army that has it - or maybe one of the magical bow also…)
    HE to compare
    Master of Carneig Towerno restrictions - instead combining very usefull spells with super usefull atribute
    High Warden of the Flamecan't equip a shield
    Fleet Officerno restrictions
    Queen's CavalierReapers and Sky Sloops can't be taken
    Queen's Companionno restrictions - just a perfect buff for core units
    Royal Huntsmenno restrictions
    Asfad Scholarno restrictions
    Order of the Fiery Heartno restrictions
    Magical bowflat 3 shots S5

    To sum up - we've 10 restrictions while HE can't take reapers and slops (maybe that's why I've never seen this used) and can't take shield...
    Team Poland WE Player 2015
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    The post was edited 3 times, last by Laik ().

  • Well the magic bows and Hail Shot are awkward designs, that are easy to change

    I personally dont mind the restrictions. The main issue is chieftains, where non-Bsbs (95% is the same 3 builds) are nearly non-existent simply because you struggle to equip the elf hero chassis (High cost, strength 4 and res 3) to any viable role because they pay the same as Princes for kindreds and magic items despite less benefit.

    Frankly a lot of hero entries in the game could get a special rule like.. “ Heirloom - Unless carrying the Army Standard the character may choose one magic item and pays only 50% of its usual cost)
  • I don't mind most of restrictions if the price is right (it's not a problem that blade dancers can't fly on great eagle - actually that would be interesting ;) ) but things like can't join any other units is an issue (that's very rare restriction game wide) - adding the fact that blade dancers can't dance while having non blade dancer hero inside (why?) it's strange.
    Pathfinder can't be BSB - why?
    Team Poland WE Player 2015
    Team Poland SE Player 2016
    Team Poland SE Player 2017
    Team Poland SE Player 2018
    Team Poland DE Player 2019
  • I would also keep in mind, currently HBE internal balance is horrible. Allot of HBE strength is derived from characters. So, it might be that HBE is characters are just underpriced, and other stuff is overpriced. Compared to SE have better overall internal balance. As internal balances increases, then these kind of comparisons should be more relevant for similar books; ie you should be able to compare most things across all the elven army books.

    That be said, there might be other design issues with SE.
  • Laik wrote:

    I'd like to open discussion about current state of SE.

    In first post 'd like to compare our kindreds upgrade option to HE honours. In my opinion kindreds are very often downgrades that we pay for (minding all the restrictions that they've).


    Small comparison (most of SE:
    ShapeshifterCan't join units (only model in the game?) on foot only
    Wild HunterFrenzy and -2 do DefWS
    PathfinderBSB can't take this kindred (compare to Queen's Companion)on foot only
    Blade dancercan join only Blade dancers, can't use shooting weaponson foot only
    Forest Guardianon foot only
    2 Magic bowsboth conditional
    Hail Shotworse then ever - should use bearers aim - instead has all shooting modifiers (actually that's the only thing in SE army that has it - or maybe one of the magical bow also…)
    HE to compare
    Master of Carneig Towerno restrictions - instead combining very usefull spells with super usefull atribute
    High Warden of the Flamecan't equip a shield
    Fleet Officerno restrictions
    Queen's CavalierReapers and Sky Sloops can't be taken
    Queen's Companionno restrictions - just a perfect buff for core units
    Royal Huntsmenno restrictions
    Asfad Scholarno restrictions
    Order of the Fiery Heartno restrictions
    Magical bowflat 3 shots S5

    To sum up - we've 10 restrictions while HE can't take reapers and slops (maybe that's why I've never seen this used) and can't take shield...
    Rather selective there TBH.

    MoCT - on Foot only

    HWoTF - always has flaming attacks. Never can switch them off. Always on foot, cant equip a shield, cant flee.

    Fleet officer - cant ride anything larger than a griffin, which means he needs to kit out for defense rather than making the most of his rules of steady aim etc with the Elu's bow. Let alone the "buff" of his rules to give coldblooded to the army. Pretty circumspect in usefulness. Notice how he is never taken?

    Queens companion - the only thing that makes SG actually worth thier points and makes their rather janky rule usable. which effectively puts about 1000 pts of res3 arm2 infantry in the firing line. Yes its good, but it needs to be to actually make things work.

    Queens Cav - Taken in niche lists where people want to double dragon, otherwise it is the only Honour/kindred/big name etc in the game that locks an entire category to enable. Not limits, locks. A category might I add that is pretty much the only way to effectively keep monstermash lists honest.

    Huntsman - best mount is a chariot. Res 4 max. Cant join units (or effectively cant because the only chariot unit we have is probably the most terrible thing out there. Literally, pump wagons beat it and cost less

    OotFH - can only take pyro or alchemy. (did you even read the entry?)

    Now i can understand being slightly underwhelmed by the Kindreds etc, however cross comparing kindreds to honours is a fools errand as they are made for completely different sets of circumstances. As an ETC level player, i would hope that you understood this.
    Once a Highborn, always a Highborn.
  • Yea, meaningless comparisons to HBE aside we can Boil it down to the usual:

    - Heroes need something
    - Elf heroes need more due to res3 and High cost

    Its fairly awkward with SE how characters fit only with a few specific units and a magic Boe designed for a single kindred, so theres definte room to clean that up come the LAB

    @Masamune88

    Indeed to all you Said bar HBE Reaver Chariots being the worse thing out there ;)

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Wesser ().

  • Yes forest guardian should never have been on foot, he was worth it on an Eagle in 8th, now no kindred can mount an Eagle. The on foot restriction was possibly too hard a condition when the book was designed but we will never know if something could have skipped through.

    The magic items are mostly a bit too limited and some have received unneeded nerfs from their 8th/7th ed counterparts. This lead to them not being used.

    In general, SE in earlier editions shined when character light and it seems it is now the way to go also. There have been definite attempts to make SE characters used more, like attempts at making the stag good, shaoeshifter great weapon item, and sorting the mundane item selection, however this has only lead to temporary uses by some players. This temporary usage can be explained by nerfs which were implemented quickly or people just realising that points are better spent elsewhere.

    The SE book has still plenty to offer and it is the nature of games to have both good and bad choices. SE has had plenty of up and down choices with rule changes and, more then in other books, these changes have not been allowed to come to an equilibrium before only point changes allow all options to be taken.
  • Opinion on Kindreds:

    Forest Guardian - feels like should be able to vanguard, otherwise can't put in forest rangers (not how I run rangers usually)
    BladeDancer - should add +1 A at least, since gain no defensive options - needs to really dish it out in combat
    Wild Hunter - should be open to all mounts, or would also like a wind rider kindred for eagles and ability to put character on kestrels to join those units

    Would also like some kindreds for the druids to access, which heightens their spell abilities, possibly giving new interactions with forests and regular spell-lores.
    I play SE, EoS, DH, UD, and KoE and use the units I like, not necessarily the best ones

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  • While I must admit that the book in general is rather balanced and feels very good power wise our character selection is disappointing (just to use an euphemism). The only competitive viable choices are Avatar of Nature, dancer BSB, Sheperd BSB and druid. I end up more often than not playing just with 1 master druid and never consider anything else unless I play a tree list which benefit more of Ld9 and BSB.

    I mean, the only decent prince build is the elk which requires awkward bunkers and almost always die so for me is a no go (I might consider a dragon but AON imho outshines him). Chieftains (except dancers) are totally useless since they cannot be BSB + pathfinders or be equipped decently. Matriarchs have a bullet in between their eyes and even though dryads are very good they become too expensive with a fragile matriarch inside (yes the hero makes the unit worse...). Ancient tree is slow, semi useless in combat and easy to target/kill and I always end up excluding him in my tree lists (better a druid on eagle that is way cheaper and can hide and survive).

    The selection of magical items is embarrassing and mounts too are very weak. The book would benefit a lot from a rework of this 3 sections (Heroes, mounts and magical items).
  • My bladedancer Prince with Titanic Might and Glyph of Amryl begs to differ. ;)
    I've seen a lot of Pathfinder princes lately, in shooting-heavy lists. Two of them = roughly the same effectiveness as a full unit of Pathfinders. Not my cup of tea, but a lot of people swear by them.

    I agree that the Forest Guardian is a bit lackluster, but I bet you could make him work in a Forest Ranger unit with the spear and potentially the Glyph of Amryl to protect him against challenging monster-characters.

    Having used Eagle Princes extensively, I think they would be too good with an extra attack and armour save.
    I just like to think that there's a Windrider Kindred, that allows your prince to ride an Eagle or a Dragon. That's enough of a bonus in itself, isn't it?

    Shapeshifters are always going to be hit-or-miss, it comes with the territory: small base, very fast, can pick his combats, but can die to a stomp or even bowfire. Playing against these with a pure combat army (no ranged threats) is hell as it is, I cannot imagine how it would be with an even better setup.
  • The worst thing is.... All of these issues with SE are incredibly easy to fix. It can be done in 1h max. 1h to make the book more balanced and be done with it.

    However Nantuko, I feel that the matriarch or double matriarch dryads are really good even if they can be singled out. The trick is to have a small bunker that they can escape to, spread ld9 and cast the divination buffs that are pretty effective, or even the div missile that can be really good in certain matches.

    Wildriders can only take stag or horse as mount so eagle/dragon riders can not take kindreds, which might have been planned. A forest guardian Eagle rider chieftain bsb could have a 1+/5++, 1+/regen or 1+/re roll all with hard target but with shield. This might have been too much, we will not know since it was not on the table at a time when such things should have been mass tested. For me all useful characters in 9th have good defense. Any character which is soft needs to be very good at some other role.

    Im keen to try the Avatar and especially two pathfinder princes, keen to see lists where those pathfinders are used. The Avatar lacks some os/ds for me.
  • As someone who plays both SE & HE I find the characters section for both to be about the same balance-wise from my own experience. They both tend to have a few builds that are commonly seen and are well worth their points cost as well as a handful of niche builds with some weird restrictions that you might see the odd time every now and then. A SE character is designed to operate differently from an HE character and I find they each perform vital but different functions for their respective armies (at least in the kinds of lists I play).

    That being said, they both of have some character options and special items that are obviously not worth the investment, but nearly every army in the project suffers from the same issue to varying degrees at the moment. I look forward to what kinds of designs both armies will receive come their turn for a LAB!

    Cheers!
    A Sylvan Elves Homebrew Full Army Book - last updated September 17, 2020

    The post was edited 1 time, last by funkyfellow ().

  • So our shooting character (pathfinder) can't be a BSB which highly reduces utlity of the pathfinder unit as they can't operate outside of BSB range (weird anchor would you agree?). While its HE counterpart can shoot 3 times while giving a great bonus to its unit. Other option in HE is a mage BSB that also shoots 3x S5 (a firepower that is unavailable for any SE character) - I find ot a bit unfair especially that we're suppose to be master arcbers...
    Team Poland WE Player 2015
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    Team Poland SE Player 2018
    Team Poland DE Player 2019
  • Outside of the charakter disadvantages for SE.....it is also less Discipline on a master master mage, while there is an option to go for a dyrad adept.


    My main proplam with SE is, the huge vulnerability to magic. No cover can protect the expensive units from magic. And I take the elf units for reference here. I know there are trees with a way better defense against magic. But it is the sylvan elfes army, so I would like to use the elfs as my main backbone of the army.
    But the combination of expensive mobile units that have no defense makes it very hard to manage this.
  • Hi guys, I have been away for almost two years but I see that nothing has changed when it comes to SE hero and magic items. We still lacks tools to survive more than one round in combat. Druid leadership 8 is still a joke. Bsb pathfinders etc.
    I am not sure what are you trying to archieve. They didnt hear us out in the past. They probably wont in the future. They have all the data they need. We pointed out every single problem already. But the only thing they are willing to make is a point reduction here and there. In my opinion this gonna kill this game.
    If books wont change from time to time common gamers sooner or later will drop this game.

    Btw. Unicorn still has no light troops?
  • Laik wrote:

    So our shooting character (pathfinder) can't be a BSB which highly reduces utlity of the pathfinder unit as they can't operate outside of BSB range (weird anchor would you agree?). While its HE counterpart can shoot 3 times while giving a great bonus to its unit. Other option in HE is a mage BSB that also shoots 3x S5 (a firepower that is unavailable for any SE character) - I find ot a bit unfair especially that we're suppose to be master arcbers...
    Well the HBE shooter doesn't have any effective avoidance units to join. Grey Watchers are support rather than damage, so is a poor choice to join, so he has to join a regular unit. So the change was made to avoid having an avoidance BsB, which makes sense.

    What is more awkward is that a Pathfinder Chieftain pays the same amount of points for the Kindred and Bough of Wyscan as a Prince despite less benefit
    No they want to avoid avoidance wizard with SE (yes OnG have it, but on low-DI units). Arguably they could just make a rule disallowing Druids to join Briar Maidens (I'd personally like to have Shamanism Druid joining some Wild Huntsmen just because), but ... at this point I don't think the team is much likely to make rules changes anywhere
  • Certainly no bias showing here, I corrected some things that could have slipped your attention.

    Laik wrote:

    I'd like to open discussion about current state of SE.

    In first post 'd like to compare our kindreds upgrade option to HE honours. In my opinion kindreds are very often downgrades that we pay for (minding all the restrictions that they've).


    Small comparison (most of SE:
    ShapeshifterCan't join units (only model in the game?) on foot only
    Wild HunterFrenzy and -2 do DefWS
    PathfinderBSB can't take this kindred (compare to Queen's Companion)on foot only
    Blade dancercan join only Blade dancers, can't use shooting weaponson foot only
    Forest Guardianon foot only
    2 Magic bowsboth conditional
    Hail Shotworse then ever - should use bearers aim - instead has all shooting modifiers (actually that's the only thing in SE army that has it - or maybe one of the magical bow also…)
    HE to compare
    Master of Carneig Towerno restrictions - instead combining very usefull spells with super usefull atribute on foot only
    High Warden of the Flamecan't equip a shieldand always flaming, on foot only, can't flee
    Fleet Officerno restrictions mounts restricted
    Queen's CavalierReapers and Sky Sloops can't be taken and all characters have to have large or gigantic mounts
    Queen's Companionno restrictions - just a perfect buff for core units on foot only, one version can only join one unit
    Royal Huntsmenno restrictions on foot or chariot only
    Asfad Scholarno restrictions
    Order of the Fiery Heartno restrictions on foot or dragon only, only two lores accessible
    Magical bowflat 3 shots S5

    To sum up - we've 10 restrictions while HE can't take reapers and slops (maybe that's why I've never seen this used) and can't take shield...
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