Pinned Infernal Dwarf Legendary Army Book Feedback Thread

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    • Almentro wrote:

      I dont think they have to hit them hard, just a few screws who needs to be tightend.
      The Crush attack for example ist totally fluff, cause the Bastion is an Juggernaut on the Bottom.
      Maybe just take out the 360 degree but all other rules are ok and set the points to 240.
      If taken by an prophet the 360 for magic is ok. but only if he really is standing on it.

      The Giant on the other Hand is hard to nerv its fluff with the armour and the shield but i think the points have to increase. Maybe 360 not 330.
      The War machines are ok like it.

      The whole picture is what makes this army so strong, so i think if you tightend a few screws the whole army will be fairer. The Immortals for example are totally fine cause they are high cost and the elite of the Dwarfes.

      Yeah the bastion directly targeting a single character is something great since its the only wizard mount that can kill a character with a single attack and be used by an master. I think that thing will change a lot.

      Well if 10-15 screws is few you are right.

      Never said they have to but I just expect them to hit them hard as they used to do that in the past.
    • UD 2018 was meant to be nerfed to 2019. Fewer people at that time did call them OP. The UD Hype started with the already meant to have been down turned 2019 Version.
    • The problem with this game is that you always look at the armies from the point of competition in ETC.This games would have to be without being able to match the confrontations, so it would be seen lists of "real" armies and not lists created to counter others.It would be much fairer if chance would match the games and they would look much more homogeneous and the meta would be fairer.
    • Traumdieb wrote:

      Almentro wrote:

      I dont think they have to hit them hard, just a few screws who needs to be tightend.
      The Crush attack for example ist totally fluff, cause the Bastion is an Juggernaut on the Bottom.
      Maybe just take out the 360 degree but all other rules are ok and set the points to 240.
      If taken by an prophet the 360 for magic is ok. but only if he really is standing on it.

      The Giant on the other Hand is hard to nerv its fluff with the armour and the shield but i think the points have to increase. Maybe 360 not 330.
      The War machines are ok like it.

      The whole picture is what makes this army so strong, so i think if you tightend a few screws the whole army will be fairer. The Immortals for example are totally fine cause they are high cost and the elite of the Dwarfes.
      Yeah the bastion directly targeting a single character is something great since its the only wizard mount that can kill a character with a single attack and be used by an master. I think that thing will change a lot.

      Well if 10-15 screws is few you are right.

      Never said they have to but I just expect them to hit them hard as they used to do that in the past.
      To be fair the crush attack is present on the Sentinel aswell. And hasnt been viewed as problematic so far. Maybe it is problematic with lugars dice. Or that ID with its strong shooting is punishing people for being out of combat compared to against DL with its bellow avarage shooting presence?
      If problematic its interesting to look Into why
    • @Traumdieb
      The point is that when the project treads softly... it gets told off.
      When the project doesn't tread softly... it gets told off.
      Its lose-lose.
      (I'm not gonna re-hash history here, but as someone who has been at the coalface, trust me on this :P )

      Perhaps you could be clear/precise about how hard you think ID should be hit?
      (Maybe taking up my suggestion of playing less than 4500pt might help you answer this quantitatively ;) )
      List repository and links HERE
      Basic beginners tactics HERE
      Empire of Dannstahl HERE

      The post was edited 2 times, last by DanT ().

    • DanT wrote:

      @Traumdieb
      The point is that when the project treads softly... it gets told off.
      When the project doesn't tread softly... it gets told off.
      Its lose-lose.
      (I'm not gonna re-hash history here, but as someone who has been at the coalface, trust me on this :P )

      Perhaps you could be clear/precise about how hard you think ID should be hit?
      (Maybe taking up my suggestion of playing less than 4500pt might help you answer this quantitatively ;) )
      Will write that tonight.
    • Infernal bastion: Firing platform
      • A maximum of 20 models can shoot
        • How do get units in it? The only option I see is to take it as a mount...
        • Do they take the defensive profile of the bastion? Doesn't sound logical.
        • Can a prophet of Ashuruk that joined the mentioned unit be also inside the bastion, although it cannot be taken as a mount?
      Infernal armour:
      • Follows the rules for Plate Armour (can be enchanted as if it was Plate Armour)
        • Does this also provide the 4+ save from the plate armour?
      • The wearer’s [lexicon]model[/lexicon] gains [lexicon]Aegis[/lexicon] (6+, against [lexicon]Flaming Attacks[/lexicon]) and [lexicon]Aegis[/lexicon] (+1, against [lexicon]Flaming Attacks[/lexicon])
        • Why not just say Aegis (5+, against Flaming Attacks)?

      Goblin Lunatic

      Translation - ES

    • Arturiki wrote:

      Infernal bastion: Firing platform
      • A maximum of 20 models can shoot
        • How do get units in it? The only option I see is to take it as a mount...
        • Do they take the defensive profile of the bastion? Doesn't sound logical.
        • Can a prophet of Ashuruk that joined the mentioned unit be also inside the bastion, although it cannot be taken as a mount?
      Infernal armour:
      • Follows the rules for Plate Armour (can be enchanted as if it was Plate Armour)
        • Does this also provide the 4+ save from the plate armour?
      • The wearer’s [lexicon]model[/lexicon] gains [lexicon]Aegis[/lexicon] (6+, against [lexicon]Flaming Attacks[/lexicon]) and [lexicon]Aegis[/lexicon] (+1, against [lexicon]Flaming Attacks[/lexicon])
        • Why not just say Aegis (5+, against Flaming Attacks)?


      The Infernal Bastion is a War Platform. While in fluff terms the unit is riding inside the tower, in mechanical terms they're deployed around and just gain special shooting rules. A Prophet attached to the unit can benefit from it's abilities.

      Infernal Plate provides three points of armour.

      Infernal Plate stacks with, for example, Basalt Infusion to get a 2+ Aegis vs. Flaming, or with Talisman of Shielding to get a 4+ vs. Flaming (and a 5+ vs. everything else).

      Background Team

    • Arturiki wrote:

      Riddle of Lamassu:
      • The model is a Wizard Adept that selects 2 spells from Word of Iron (Alchemy), Breath of Corruption (Occultism), Flaming Swords (Pyromancy), and The Wheel Turns (Witchcraft).
        • Does this count towards having channel (1) for veil tokens?


      Yes; all Wizard Adepts have Channel (1) unless specified otherwise.

      Background Team

    • WhammeWhamme wrote:

      The Infernal Bastion is a War Platform. While in fluff terms the unit is riding inside the tower, in mechanical terms they're deployed around and just gain special shooting rules. A Prophet attached to the unit can benefit from it's abilities.
      Would that also mean that physically those units in the bastion could block the path of other units? Or could I e.g. place the unit outside the board and count the wounds and everything from there while the bastion itself is present in the battlefield?

      WhammeWhamme wrote:

      Infernal Plate stacks with, for example, Basalt Infusion to get a 2+ Aegis vs. Flaming, or with Talisman of Shielding to get a 4+ vs. Flaming (and a 5+ vs. everything else).
      Oh, that make sense. Dumb question then.

      WhammeWhamme wrote:

      Yes; all Wizard Adepts have Channel (1) unless specified otherwise.
      Pretty cool.

      And yes, I am trying to exploit some of the strengths everybody is complaining about!

      Goblin Lunatic

      Translation - ES

    • Arturiki wrote:

      WhammeWhamme wrote:

      The Infernal Bastion is a War Platform. While in fluff terms the unit is riding inside the tower, in mechanical terms they're deployed around and just gain special shooting rules. A Prophet attached to the unit can benefit from it's abilities.
      Would that also mean that physically those units in the bastion could block the path of other units? Or could I e.g. place the unit outside the board and count the wounds and everything from there while the bastion itself is present in the battlefield?

      WhammeWhamme wrote:

      Infernal Plate stacks with, for example, Basalt Infusion to get a 2+ Aegis vs. Flaming, or with Talisman of Shielding to get a 4+ vs. Flaming (and a 5+ vs. everything else).
      Oh, that make sense. Dumb question then.

      WhammeWhamme wrote:

      Yes; all Wizard Adepts have Channel (1) unless specified otherwise.
      Pretty cool.
      And yes, I am trying to exploit some of the strengths everybody is complaining about!
      Again its a war plattform it goes with the unit and in terms of shooting they go on top of it and afterwards they are going to the bottom again. See it like an Plattform with tires, the dwarf are pushing it in the battle than stand still went on the top shooting and go back down to push farther...

      the other points are clear i think
    • I think people are getting confused between the fluff and mechanics.

      In game-terms, no model "enters" the tower.
      The tower just joins the unit, in the same way as the VS towers, or a WotDG battleshrine.
      The model itself is on 60x100mm base, so it occupies the space of 3x5=15 dwarfs (20mm square bases).

      Typically, the dwarf unit is likely (but not mandated) to be "5 dwarfs" wide, i.e. 200mm wide.
      This means the front rank will consist of the tower with one dwarf either side.
      The first 5 ranks will look like this, then the remaining ranks (if any) will all consist of 5 dwarfs.

      Either way, the tower being inside a unit of dwarfs (like a wizard on a really big base being put inside a unit of dwarfs), is what this looks like as far as the game goes.

      The rules of the tower represent the fact that models will occupy it and use it shoot, but that isn't the same as the models physically entering it during the game. The individual models in the unit the tower has joined are still present on the table, and the tower sits inside a unit (in a similar way to most other models joining the unit).
      List repository and links HERE
      Basic beginners tactics HERE
      Empire of Dannstahl HERE
    • Arturiki wrote:

      WhammeWhamme wrote:

      The Infernal Bastion is a War Platform. While in fluff terms the unit is riding inside the tower, in mechanical terms they're deployed around and just gain special shooting rules. A Prophet attached to the unit can benefit from it's abilities.
      Would that also mean that physically those units in the bastion could block the path of other units? Or could I e.g. place the unit outside the board and count the wounds and everything from there while the bastion itself is present in the battlefield?

      WhammeWhamme wrote:

      Infernal Plate stacks with, for example, Basalt Infusion to get a 2+ Aegis vs. Flaming, or with Talisman of Shielding to get a 4+ vs. Flaming (and a 5+ vs. everything else).
      Oh, that make sense. Dumb question then.

      WhammeWhamme wrote:

      Yes; all Wizard Adepts have Channel (1) unless specified otherwise.
      Pretty cool.
      And yes, I am trying to exploit some of the strengths everybody is complaining about!

      DanT wrote:

      I think people are getting confused between the fluff and mechanics.

      In game-terms, no model "enters" the tower.
      The tower just joins the unit, in the same way as the VS towers, or a WotDG battleshrine.
      The model itself is on 60x100mm base, so it occupies the space of 3x5=15 dwarfs (20mm square bases).

      Typically, the dwarf unit is likely (but not mandated) to be "5 dwarfs" wide, i.e. 200mm wide.
      This means the front rank will consist of the tower with one dwarf either side.
      The first 5 ranks will look like this, then the remaining ranks (if any) will all consist of 5 dwarfs.

      Either way, the tower being inside a unit of dwarfs (like a wizard on a really big base being put inside a unit of dwarfs), is what this looks like as far as the game goes.

      The rules of the tower represent the fact that models will occupy it and use it shoot, but that isn't the same as the models physically entering it during the game. The individual models in the unit the tower has joined are still present on the table, and the tower sits inside a unit (in a similar way to most other models joining the unit).

      This.

      Background Team

    • DanT wrote:

      @Traumdieb
      The point is that when the project treads softly... it gets told off.
      When the project doesn't tread softly... it gets told off.
      Its lose-lose.
      (I'm not gonna re-hash history here, but as someone who has been at the coalface, trust me on this :P )

      Perhaps you could be clear/precise about how hard you think ID should be hit?
      (Maybe taking up my suggestion of playing less than 4500pt might help you answer this quantitatively ;) )
      So now I got time to handel hopefully the hole book. If I spot somewhere I will complete it when Kids and Wife (currently at the end of pregnancy of my third child) dont need my support or time.

      1. General rules

      1.1. Incendiary

      cross "one instance of". Making someone flammeable as a side effect is good enough.

      1.2 Infernal Brand

      cross • Gain Battle Focus. (would put it into Kadim Manifestation since I found no non Infernal Brands except Kadims, Vassals and Slaves . At Vassals and Slaves I would generally cross it.

      Would add your idea. As long as someone fighting with the same height or smaller the model takes leadership tests with minimized roll.

      1.3 Kadim Manifestation: Cross
      If the attacks become Flaming Attacks from more thanone source (including other instances of Kadim Manifestation), they also become Divine Attacks.
      Add:
      Models with Kadim Manifestation gain Battle Focus when fighting something flammeable.

      1.4 Blunderbusses I would change or replace with Flintlocks.

      1.5 Rocket Launcher
      Loss clipped wings

      1.6 H Spell I would change. Mayhaps back to Haze of Magnesia but with the rule that it will be activated when the casting player decides too.

      Armoury:
      Cross ’s model.

      1.7 Special Items:
      Would take away Kadim Manifestation on Onyx Core. We need an item working without Flamming.
      Would take back Burning Steel and delete flames of the east or add it without replacement.
      Would change Blaze of Protection to a ward save shield or amour. Mayhaps bring Steel Skin with +2 or +3 back.
      Would add at Mask of Ages: Models without Gigantic.

      Personally I dislike both banners and would find something different (but this has nothing to do with power of the banners).

      Cross ’s model at Breath of the Brass Bull
      Cross A single model part of the plus e’s model

      2. Characters:
      Overlord:
      Not sure if he should change. Like the design not sure if its op. If changing add a premium weapon.

      Prophet:
      I would generally allow an Infernal Weapon for every version since it has not parry.

      Nezkibesh: Bastion is to cheap. Maybe even cross that option. Would price it at 290 pts. (normally mounts are more expensive than single units see Altar of Dread Elfs or Court of the damned on Lamian Vampire).

      Taurukh Commissioner: Seems a little to expensive. Would restrict that to Taurukh Annointed.

      Mounts: Give Bulls the 2+ ward save vs. Fire back.

      3. Core

      Infernal Warriors:
      Infernal Armour should be an option.
      Possibility to gain a way for hatred. Need another shooting weapon.
      Minimum Size 15 since I would make CGs the dart since they are less elite.

      Citadel Guards: Needs change but I am not sure what to change.
      When using Spears Citadel Guards cant stand & shoot with pistols.
      Infernal Weapons as replacement of Spears is also an idea I like.
      I would like the possibility to play them as a dart again.

      Another option to improve the other options could be:
      The model gains Fight in Extra Rank unless it is Charging or using a spear. (bold part is added)

      Since Slaves and Vassals lost Battle Focus in this list. No further change.

      4. Special

      Immortals

      Only parry with Infernal Weapons. Drop Spears here.

      Disciples of Lugar
      Drop an Attack and make a price adjustment for this.

      Taurukh Enforcers
      Let them loose the Arm 1 and give them shields automatically.

      Taurukh Annointed:
      Give them a grind attack instead of stomp. Cannot be done when charging but makes them better when charged or in later rounds. Otherwise a price drop is necessary. Should never suffer because there is a Taurukh Commissioner since they are to expensive to play them together.

      Artillery in general
      I miss this bombshell thing of Titan Mortar. Currently Mortars feel to expensive for what they doe.

      Gunnery team:
      Flamer on Gunneryteam is horrible weak. Give it +1 Strength back.
      I like the rocket launcher on it but miss a volley gun. Mayhaps the rocket launcher is to good here. Charging the rocket launcher with +2 fires of industry seems an option for me to charge them heavier.

      Infernal Artillery:
      Give it back the movement of 3.
      Make there base cost 1 fires of industry and charge rockets with +1.
      Range of Titan Mortar feels to short.

      Infernal Engine:
      Would charge the chasis of it with 1 point plus 1 point for mortar and naptha launcher. 2 for rocket launcher.
      Naptha and Mortar feel to expensive.

      Infernal Bastion:
      1 per army.
      Crush attack with lower offence and a grind attack with S7 AP4 (same goes for impacts) instead of crush attack.
      Cross "Measure their range from any point of the base of the Infernal Bastion."

      Citizen Giant:
      Tower Shield is hillarious good. Change distracting to parry and mayhaps only soft cover or hard target (1) since its still a giant and hard cover is to good and useless vs. a canon.

      So these are the changes I would make.

      Edit: Would give Kadim fly again or also add movement like Magma Tunnelling. With some points up for this.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Traumdieb ().

    • Traumdieb wrote:

      {list of specific changes}
      This should probably be aimed at the team, not me ;)

      But either way I think it kinda misses the point of what I was saying.
      I'm sure we all have our preferred set of suggestions for the book... and the team can clearly only implement a small fraction of them (and some sort of "average" of the common elements could well be disastrous)...

      but I was trying to suggest that you say how much ID should be hit, not how to hit them :P

      Because maybe if the team get this info off a lot of people, it gives some idea of what path the team can take, that will not trigger an unholy backlash of "OMG you have totz nerfed everything" or "OMG you are all incompetents this is still soooo OP".
      List repository and links HERE
      Basic beginners tactics HERE
      Empire of Dannstahl HERE
    • @DanT

      You asked you got an answer where I would hit ID. The problems are not the unit prices by itself. Some are to cheap some to ecpensive and its not possible to say depending on the lisr.

      Its
      to good stuff at certain points. (Mask of Ages and Dice of Lugar)
      To many synergies.
      Some units are simply to good.

      As said kid in a candy shop with free choice.