Infernal Dwarf Legendary Army Book Feedback Thread

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  • This 4 months period had 4 phases:

    1. Getting increasingly annoyed by the fact, that Knights of Ryma almost never accomplish anything, because they always "collect" some random shots from random unit and either die, or are brought below the point where they are effective, or because their target rolled one save too much and they just get destroyed/break after second round of combat.
    2. Giving up on zoning units entirely and bringing a third combat brick instead for those 720 (!!!) points from KoR. I soon found out that while it is problematic to deal with, higher skill playera will just chaff them til the game ends/destroy one at a time with multicharges with their bricks and zoners.
    3. Trying to substitute KoR with Highborn Lancers ( as you can guess, this went swimmingly), Lone Prince on a horse ( not horrible, but still overpriced) and Prince on a dragon in deluxe and then budget versions ( this pretty much left me with 1 extremely vulnerable to shooting zoner, just that now machines posed a threat, instead of everything else).
    4. Finally trying bringing Commander on Lion chariot and being astonished how well it performed, instantly shoving a second one in the list, finding out that 2 of them work even better in literally every situation.

    Each phase took about a months, since I Play at least a few games with each toster before deciding if it's garbage, or not, so the whole process, with mentioned winning streak lasted about 9 months. Also, if you want to be pedantic, then yes, the points adjustment of 2019 allowed me to take 3 additional Lion Guards into the list, bringing their number from 27 to 30. I do not know, if such a change could be considered as "changing a roster", but Hey, details. This list can do abut anything, it can play defensively, or offensivelt, depending on a matchup. And to be honest, Furion liked the idead of my commanders, when I mentioned it in January on our club's "forum" (it's a messanger chat, but it suffices for us), but we never had a full on conversation about it.

    Jomppexx wrote:

    I agree with othet posters here. HBE list is not very scary and a good match-up for ID. Spears are complete chaff, sea guard are ok unit but really weak in this match-up. Bows in general are crap vs ID.
    Only real threat is the lions which will suck in all shooting and magic. Secondary threats are the lion charioteers but again... Other is weak to flaming against ID and one chariot commander with the lions cannot win against that ID list.
    Yes, I agree, I should definitely bring some Strength 4 unit in my core, instead of spearmen. Also, I should get some higher strength shooting, maybe crossbows, in my list. Hey wait a minute...

    The post was edited 1 time, last by kompatybilijny: more sass ().

  • Thank you for the context on your list and the process of building/ refining it. How did it perform against ID in the past. How does it perform vs. EoS, DH, SE and other HE?

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  • EoS is a good matchup usually, units in my roster can fight reasonably with their units, chariots can grind heavy infantry if needed and are absolute bane of Sun griffon knights. The biggest threat to chariots are cannons, but they are still far more durable against them than a dragon. Usually I try to snipe mortars/volley guns as quickly as possible, since they are a considerable threat to my bricks, with my bolt throwers and then move on to cannons.

    DH is a mediocre matchup, highly dependant on the type of enemy's roster, but as a rule of thumb you have to either hide chariots from cannons and snipe them with bolt throwers, but if there is a catapult, especially a big one, it is your highest priority. Chariots are amazing at combo charging bricks with your units and are also very good at finishing off damaged slayer bricks, since a). slayers do not "return" hits, if they die from impacts and b) chariots are tanky enough to last against slayers for a few rounds of combat (cavalary would just die horribly, when attempting such a thing). As for the regen chariot, the only real issue are gyrocopters, as they are the only thing that shoot with flaming attacks (since noone sane would actually buy flaming shot on any machine), but I have found out that if dwarves deploy first, you can deploy your regen chariot outside of copters range and if you are deploying first, usually copters would not want to be seen first turn, so you can watch out for "telegraphed" spots, where copters have a high chance of being deployed (behind a los blocking terrain usually). If they deploy as you predicted, your chariot has free reign, if they do not, then they are deployed in your los, so you can attempt to punish them for this in your first turn.

    SE just need to be rushed honestly, I often find myself playing hyper agressive with chariots against them, so either SE focus them with high ap shots, which is good for my Sea Guards, as they can return fire more effectively, or they ignore them, then they can smoothly connect with their fragile units (its a win-win situation honestly). The only unit chariots do not really want to engage are Thicket beasts, but it's still not a catastrophic engagement for them (any sylvan cavalary will get shrekt by a chariot, even if he is the one getting charged).

    I have not played against other HBE with this roster, as the only other player in my circle who actively plays HBE is Furion and either way the result of me getting smashed would not tell us much, but i have played against DE a few times and have found out that you have to play defensively against them, shooting units such as Dancers of Yema, or Dread Judges, but chariots once again save the day by hard countering dragons, hydras, krakens and manticores just by guarding the flanks and pretty much forcing them to charge on the front of your army, or not at all. This is my experience with this list.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by kompatybilijny ().

  • Such bad little 830 pts things that wont win every game alone. Have that problem with my Cuatl at SA, my Dragon Seekers at DH, my Vampire count or my two master necros at VC and my magic at ID too. Maybe I should use the rest of the army too :P .

    Serious the list only misses a few reaver chariots to cause panic when killing one to destroy your game to a perfect matchup for ID.
    The Bad Beards (ID)
    Clan Skuf (DH)
    Zee Brood (SA)
    The Crown of Fangs [the strings behind the fools] (VC)
  • Guy provides an ID list and a HE list. Has some reasonable points.

    Pick as many as you like:
    a) your army is bad
    b) your army is bad especially against ID
    c) your army is good against everything else, so being bad against ID is fine
    d) the matchup was bad with the old book, so it‘s fine
    e) one game is not enough to say anything, play again

    How about listening to the guy instead?
    i.e. give feedback to the guy like „Rocket battery is received as too strong by many players and is currently looked at. Occult mage on bull is rarely played, please give a little bit more information about what its role in the game was“

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Scrub ().

  • After a couple games with a shooty army my feedback:
    Ocultism prophet. As awesome as ever. This id cult is very interesting and The pisobility of casting 0 spell of alchemy or pyro is very good.

    Pyro engineer (Flaming sword plus racial) with book of arcane mastery. Works pretty well. powerfull caster boost warmachines and can deal with (weakened) light cavalry units. Not prety dure about The book but reserve The points.

    Vizier bsb ok

    BBS. Very different of flintlock, lees powerfull than i thought. Played in a bastión with slaves and they shoot one at 5+ then SS at 6+, and then they are charged. All those shoots with Battle Focus. I couldnt test Dart units, but The 25 Guy unit with shields is a bit overcosted.

    Orc slaves ok. Sometimes they fue due to battlefocus sometimes no. Less powerfull than old guys.

    Citadel with flintlock ok

    Citadel with pistols and shields too cheap.

    I think that to The limit of BBS and flintlocks should be added pistols, and that limit should be under 60 near 45 un orden yo avoid some spams

    Steed vasals ok.

    Inmortals with great weapon very good. I dont think they overperformed, they are what they are supposed to be.

    Kadaais. Good when they are near id but weak when they charge and overrun. They are more specialliced but they are too expensive for what they do.

    Titan mortar with sharpnell and The non kadaai ammo. Good, powerfull but you pay for It. The sharpnell is a bit meh becouse The opponent can choose The objetive.

    Infernal engine ( combat) good and well priced. I think that playing two if them should be too much maybe if they cost 3 points of shooting instead of two should be more balanced.

    Infernal bastión. I play him without 360 hability. very good not op, gives you a Crush attack and The hability of shooting 20models make him unique and fluffy.

    Racial spell. Needs to be 8/9+ to be casted. Some matchups is good some is rubbish. I understand that in etc format, when you choose your pairings should be powerfull, but i think they design is pure gold. Maybe you can removed The flammable parte in orden to adapt It to etc format.

    Finally. The flavour of The army. I think that you make The perfect mix with assirian flavour plus legions of wh***er 8th edition plus 9 age. I ve been playing with id since wh***er 3rd and is The more fluffy book i ever played. Its just a pleasure see siegue towers plus fire daemons plus lammasu flying arround, slaves....i really want to see The FAB gold book and print it. congratulations for this work, im not a etc player but i think this part of The hobby is crucial.

    Cheers
  • Scrub wrote:

    Rocket battery is received as too strong by many players and is currently looked at.
    Why exactly do you think its too stong? Is it its dmg potential or the price? Here is the the comparison to organ gun:

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Assuming I made no mistakes and you're a target with 3+ HP (That is, if the d3 wounds is fully relevant), but don't have flying, the Rocket Battery does (on average) 16% less damage than a runed-up Organ Gun would do to you, ignoring the 14% chance of a misfire.

    Same S (more or less), same AP, and assuming same range modifiers (Emplaced RBT has an extra 6" range).

    It's a little swingier (better chances of getting 3 wounds if on average you would do 1 or 2) but... yeah. Organ Gun, or half an Organ Gun if you have 1 HP.
    It also have some weaknesses inbuild, that should affect the price so I dont think the price is that much off, if anything.
  • Traumdieb wrote:

    Such bad little 830 pts things that wont win every game alone. Have that problem with my Cuatl at SA, my Dragon Seekers at DH, my Vampire count or my two master necros at VC and my magic at ID too. Maybe I should use the rest of the army too :P .

    Serious the list only misses a few reaver chariots to cause panic when killing one to destroy your game to a perfect matchup for ID.
    I neer said that I expect chariots to win me games on their own, it's just pointing out that they are still reasonable even in this horrible matchup, but then again having only 2 reasonable models in the army is not a good situation to be in.
  • Scrub wrote:

    Guy provides an ID list and a HE list. Has some reasonable points.

    Pick as many as you like:
    a) your army is bad
    b) your army is bad especially against ID
    c) your army is good against everything else, so being bad against ID is fine
    d) the matchup was bad with the old book, so it‘s fine
    e) one game is not enough to say anything, play again

    How about listening to the guy instead?
    i.e. give feedback to the guy like „Rocket battery is received as too strong by many players and is currently looked at. Occult mage on bull is rarely played, please give a little bit more information about what its role in the game was“
    I guess he did with bis hyperbole just trigger to much points to be sorted in a certain category.


    kompatybilijny wrote:

    I've just played (20 min ago) a match vs the new ID and from my perspective as a HBE player the entire enemy army was shooting better than me, his army was several orders of magnitudę more durable than me, and every single one of his units would require at the very least a Lion Guard's Brick to kill (every other unit would just bounce off off them after 1-2 rounds of combat). 2 Rocket batteries work like 8 elven bolt throwers and Infernal engine is nearly impossible to kill for me. And everything is unbelievably cheap, it's literally a situation where I have to commit 4 times more points for each unit than it is worth to deal with it reasonably. Also for context, I have not lost a game in the lasy 6 months and here came a guy who did not Play for 5 years with the new ID and I instantly lose 19:1.
    Hm, without knowing the lists the only possible answer he would like is that the Rocket Battery is looked at.

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  • kompatybilijny wrote:

    Traumdieb wrote:

    Such bad little 830 pts things that wont win every game alone. Have that problem with my Cuatl at SA, my Dragon Seekers at DH, my Vampire count or my two master necros at VC and my magic at ID too. Maybe I should use the rest of the army too :P .

    Serious the list only misses a few reaver chariots to cause panic when killing one to destroy your game to a perfect matchup for ID.
    I neer said that I expect chariots to win me games on their own, it's just pointing out that they are still reasonable even in this horrible matchup, but then again having only 2 reasonable models in the army is not a good situation to be in.
    I am not sure if I would not reduce one of them to dragon forged amour instead of death cheater

    325 - Commander, Lion Chariot, Shield, Dragonforged Armour, Great Weapon, Royal Huntsman.

    and do nasty stuff with the rest of points. But is long gone when I had HE :).
    The Bad Beards (ID)
    Clan Skuf (DH)
    Zee Brood (SA)
    The Crown of Fangs [the strings behind the fools] (VC)
  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    I did the math earlier this week.

    Assuming I made no mistakes and you're a target with 3+ HP (That is, if the d3 wounds is fully relevant), but don't have flying, the Rocket Battery does (on average) 16% less damage than a runed-up Organ Gun would do to you, ignoring the 14% chance of a misfire.

    Same S (more or less), same AP, and assuming same range modifiers (Emplaced RBT has an extra 6" range).

    It's a little swingier (better chances of getting 3 wounds if on average you would do 1 or 2) but... yeah. Organ Gun, or half an Organ Gun if you have 1 HP.
    You got the math? For those of us sad enough to be interested. Is this for long range or short? Presumably rune crafted with engineer going by your statement on strength and modifiers?

    Interesting as you’ll normally get an extra turn of shooting with 36” to 30”.
    Free command groups for standard infantry
  • Kaneador wrote:




    BBS. Very different of flintlock, lees powerfull than i thought. Played in a bastión with slaves and they shoot one at 5+ then SS at 6+, and then they are charged. All those shoots with Battle Focus. I couldnt test Dart units, but The 25 Guy unit with shields is a bit overcosted.

    Titan mortar with sharpnell and The non kadaai ammo. Good, powerfull but you pay for It. The sharpnell is a bit meh becouse The opponent can choose The objetive.
    Battle focus don't work at Stand and Shoot reaction :)

    Cluster Ammo target closest unit, when two are at the same range, Active player decide.
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  • Odoamar wrote:

    Kaneador wrote:

    BBS. Very different of flintlock, lees powerfull than i thought. Played in a bastión with slaves and they shoot one at 5+ then SS at 6+, and then they are charged. All those shoots with Battle Focus. I couldnt test Dart units, but The 25 Guy unit with shields is a bit overcosted.

    Titan mortar with sharpnell and The non kadaai ammo. Good, powerfull but you pay for It. The sharpnell is a bit meh becouse The opponent can choose The objetive.
    Battle focus don't work at Stand and Shoot reaction :)
    Cluster Ammo target closest unit, when two are at the same range, Active player decide.
    I may be missing something or having a brain fart, but why doesn’t S&S get the Battle Focus?
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  • skipschnit wrote:

    Odoamar wrote:

    Kaneador wrote:

    BBS. Very different of flintlock, lees powerfull than i thought. Played in a bastión with slaves and they shoot one at 5+ then SS at 6+, and then they are charged. All those shoots with Battle Focus. I couldnt test Dart units, but The 25 Guy unit with shields is a bit overcosted.

    Titan mortar with sharpnell and The non kadaai ammo. Good, powerfull but you pay for It. The sharpnell is a bit meh becouse The opponent can choose The objetive.
    Battle focus don't work at Stand and Shoot reaction :)Cluster Ammo target closest unit, when two are at the same range, Active player decide.
    I may be missing something or having a brain fart, but why doesn’t S&S get the Battle Focus?
    Ammo-Bearers is an ability of shackled slaves and it only lasts until the end of the ID turn.
    And Ammo-Bearers gives battle focus to any shooting blunderbusses/pistols/flintlock axes.
    It's okay, it has frenzy.

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