Infernal Dwarfs LAB Feedback, a Sylvan perspective

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The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is available! You can read all about it in the news.

The brand new army book for Infernal Dwarves is finally available, along with a small surprise! Remember that it is a beta version, and provide us your feedback!

  • Infernal Dwarfs LAB Feedback, a Sylvan perspective

    Greetings Forest Born;

    As I am sure nearly all of you are aware the masters of the Infernal Dwarfs have seen fit to release their LAB unto the masses. We would love to hear your thoughts regarding the following about 9th Age's fiery new LAB:

    • The flavour and Background material.
    • The complexity of the army book.
    • The balance concerns you may have.
    • If you have played games vs the new book, your impressions from those games.
    • Other opinions about the new book you may have.


    As always please try to temper your opinions with in-game experience, I look forward to reading your responses,
    Cheers!
    A Sylvan Elves Homebrew Full Army Book - last updated July 7, 2020

    The post was edited 1 time, last by funkyfellow: Updated feedback guidelines ().

  • I have not played any games against them so I will not comment on the book from a balance perspective.


    What are your thoughts regarding the background material? Do you feel the rules adequately translate the background material to the army?
    Haven't read it yet.

    Do you feel the book has a suitable theme and that its unit entries accurately represent how you view the army?
    Yes.

    What are your thoughts regarding the complexity level of the book? Is the book easy to understand?
    Way too complicated. Rules within rules within rules overwriting rules within rules. I was sincerely hoping T9A would move further away from this mess and not embrace it.


    Do you think you will have fun playing against the army?
    Probably going to be my least favorite army to play against. Most of my general game knowledge will be useless because everything works differently for ID. It will be a long long time, until I will be able to play a game against ID without asking for rule clarification a dozen times a round.

    Do you think you would enjoy using the army?
    Maybe, there are a lot of interesting combinations. However I don't enjoy the ID theme at all, so that is not going to happen.

    Do you have any other thoughts regarding the release?
    I really hope this special rule massacre is not carrying over into other books. I think complexity should come from uniquely combining general rules and common special rules.
    An abundance of special rules makes the game complicated, not complex.
  • Arrahed wrote:

    Do you have any other thoughts regarding the release?
    I really hope this special rule massacre is not carrying over into other books. I think complexity should come from uniquely combining general rules and common special rules.
    An abundance of special rules makes the game complicated, not complex.
    Fully agree:
    • Two full pages of particular rules
    • 3/5 characters with particular rules
    • 3/6 mounts with particular rules
    • 3/5 core units with particular rules
    • 9/11 special units with particular rules
    • 4/4 instrument of destruction units with particular rules


    Which means that almost nothing is known by knowing the rulebook itself. Very very difficult to engage new players with this amount of particular rules for each unit of each army.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by raulmartinv ().

  • What are your thoughts regarding the balance of the book vs a Sylvan Elves army?

    The ubiquitous Icon of the Inferno is gone! Elf/Avoidance style play can finally work against ID, hurray for al---wait. Whats that shadow looming behind me? *squelch*

    Icon is gone, the new arcane item makes 3 dice spells more viable, and the loss of their hereditary while retaining much of the flaming/flammable synergy inherently pushes ID away from Pyro towards Alch. This is good for us.

    However Plate armour *everywhere* as well as resilience 4 basically laughs of Elven shooting, and if we move into close range to get Str 4 shots, this is the range ID excel at. With march and shoot ID have long lateral threat ranges, but much shorter horizontal threat ranges, which forces us to play the flanks.

    But honestly the biggester kicker is the infernal bastion. It completely negates the counterplay SE have. 360 LoS. All 20 models being able to measure from a single spot. *If* the opponent takes a pyromancy master, an Infernal Bastion, and a shooting unit...well damn. You can't out outmaneuver it. You can't whether it's firepower. You can't shoot through soft cover 3+ svs resilience 4. If they're citide guard w/ flintlocks you probably can't even beat it in a frontal charge!
    - Now I don't think the bastion will be meta. It's slow, puts a lot of points into one unit, and countering avoidance which won't win against ID anyway might be redundant. So I don't think it'll be a common tourney pick. But at a meta level? This ruins games.

    I'm not a doom n gloom sayer, but I can think of a load of ways that ID can tailor to completely ruin any SE list, but I can't think of it the other way around. Infernal Engine w/ Flame thrower, only combatable with crush attacks n maybe Str 7 lords. Gunnery teams with flame throwers, artillary with rocket batteries and cluster munitions.

    Do you know how many Str 3 Ap 1 shots are needed to remove a gunnary team at long range?
    54. 155pts with the flame thrower. Why the hell does it have 4 wounds AND hard target?

    Flaming (divine) attacks seems directly designed to ruin forest spirits day.

    Honest question, what sort of Sylvan list could be build tailored to beating ID? They have loads of flaming autohits, therefore no dancers. They can have an unremovable gigantic 360'' pyromancy master, therefore no close range avoidance shenanigans. They have unbreakable resilience 7 tanks, therefore our Str 5 can openers can't touch it. Just....urgh. The sad thing is only some of these things will be in the 'meta' lists, so it won't get fixed, but this sort of RPS ruins grass roots level gaming.
  • What are everyone’s thoughts on the Lammassu Scholar (or whatever it’s name is) with the two spells face down and reveal after dispel attempt?

    I don’t like it and will be home-ruling it out when I play casually. Just seems like an unnecessary change to a core mechanic. Keen to get an item which just removes the opponent’s magic phase entirely in future.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • Alexwellace wrote:

    What are your thoughts regarding the balance of the book vs a Sylvan Elves army?

    The ubiquitous Icon of the Inferno is gone! Elf/Avoidance style play can finally work against ID, hurray for al---wait. Whats that shadow looming behind me? *squelch*

    Icon is gone, the new arcane item makes 3 dice spells more viable, and the loss of their hereditary while retaining much of the flaming/flammable synergy inherently pushes ID away from Pyro towards Alch. This is good for us.

    However Plate armour *everywhere* as well as resilience 4 basically laughs of Elven shooting, and if we move into close range to get Str 4 shots, this is the range ID excel at. With march and shoot ID have long lateral threat ranges, but much shorter horizontal threat ranges, which forces us to play the flanks.

    But honestly the biggester kicker is the infernal bastion. It completely negates the counterplay SE have. 360 LoS. All 20 models being able to measure from a single spot. *If* the opponent takes a pyromancy master, an Infernal Bastion, and a shooting unit...well damn. You can't out outmaneuver it. You can't whether it's firepower. You can't shoot through soft cover 3+ svs resilience 4. If they're citide guard w/ flintlocks you probably can't even beat it in a frontal charge!
    - Now I don't think the bastion will be meta. It's slow, puts a lot of points into one unit, and countering avoidance which won't win against ID anyway might be redundant. So I don't think it'll be a common tourney pick. But at a meta level? This ruins games.

    I'm not a doom n gloom sayer, but I can think of a load of ways that ID can tailor to completely ruin any SE list, but I can't think of it the other way around. Infernal Engine w/ Flame thrower, only combatable with crush attacks n maybe Str 7 lords. Gunnery teams with flame throwers, artillary with rocket batteries and cluster munitions.

    Do you know how many Str 3 Ap 1 shots are needed to remove a gunnary team at long range?
    54. 155pts with the flame thrower. Why the hell does it have 4 wounds AND hard target?

    Flaming (divine) attacks seems directly designed to ruin forest spirits day.

    Honest question, what sort of Sylvan list could be build tailored to beating ID? They have loads of flaming autohits, therefore no dancers. They can have an unremovable gigantic 360'' pyromancy master, therefore no close range avoidance shenanigans. They have unbreakable resilience 7 tanks, therefore our Str 5 can openers can't touch it. Just....urgh. The sad thing is only some of these things will be in the 'meta' lists, so it won't get fixed, but this sort of RPS ruins grass roots level gaming.

    Just to answer a couple of questions:

    - Gunnery Teams have Hard Target because they had Hard Target in slim and that seemed fine. I'll also throw in some notes about collecting their VP in melee (where they are rather weak) rather than through shooting being a good thing to encourage people to do. I appreciate that's frustrating from a SE POV.

    - SE counterplay: Well, first off, hide in your forests. ID shooting generally has to take that -1 to-hit on the chin, and it's proportionately more effective on the slightly less accurate but harder-hitting ID shooting (bubbling Scrying also good, both in melee and out of it - no access to re-rolls means grind attacks-less units are vulnerable to one bad round of die rolls = no hits). Caution: does not work vs flamethrowers or mortars, handle flamethrowers with other means, probably don't expect to see mortars.

    Second, you don't need can-openers per se; ID armour mostly caps at 3+. Trains and Bastions get smashed by things that have high strength, specifically. Titanic Might combat Lords can slice them open relatively efficiently, and if they're in a unit the Grinds will hit their support crew.

    Third, the Bastion is good against shooting but relatively soft against melee; even deployed 7 wide, against many charging units that's "you must come into contact with two Flintlock Guard and the Bastion... four attacks (including the second rank) from the Flintlocks and 6 +1 from the S3 crew is not actually particularly deadly.

    And if you can actually break their steadfast, the unit probably promptly falls over, barring something bizarre like a block of Immortals using it solely for shooting protection (I recommend going around such an expensive, clunky unit).


    Fourth, some of the more individually scary ID units are a bit rock/paper/scissors. You're probably best off taking a well-rounded SE list that has a variety of threats and trying to get the good fights going while not getting shot too much. What beats one unit doesn't beat another and I think that's kinda good for the game as a whole, actually. "Take this to counter their entire book" is bad, but it's bad because their entire book should have enough diversity that one thing can't counter it without being just generally OP.


    Fifth, feedback feedback feedback, please. I really really want to see genuinely OP/unfun stuff addressed, I don't want this labour of love to make people unhappy. So be as precise as a laser in your critiques - if you say something is OP and it isn't, you may be contributing to the wrong things getting nerfed or redesigned, which means the real problems would continue to fester.

    Disclaimer: My suggestions are just suggestions from the ID designer's POV on where it's supposed to be weak. If I'm wrong... I'm sorry. Game design is hard work, and sometimes you just miss the shot.

    Background Team

  • Stepping back, the book feels thematic and I get the battle line trundling forward thing. Looking forward to the full fluff book.

    It seems special rule heavy at first glance but I’m told it doesn’t feel that way on the table (or no more than it used to).

    The biggest thing this does for me is make me feel a bit sorry for the SE LAB Team whenever our turn comes as there seems to be more autohits and more move and shoot (or 360 LoS) meaning for us to maintain our strength in that domain (avoiding hits, movement, shooting) we are going to have to push the envelope beyond what any RT is going to be happy with. Squeezes the design space there quite a bit.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • I feel like blade dancers or wild hunters with sylvan blades are pretty decent (on paper) vs this 900 point immortal brick that will be bandied around. Not tried it but makes these units a better choice than say, thicket beasts.

    Background Team

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    Team Ireland ETC 2019 :HE:
  • ...basic R&Fer, 1st entry; warrior und scatter gun for example..area attack, quick to fire, '1' re-rolls, march and shoot, r4/3+ with shield, branding (somewhat messy explanation) and scoring..nice stats if a little bizarre for a slow moving guy with no dexterity firing a flint & powder hand cannon..seems a bit too special to me and breaks with the whole rational behind core troops..not to worry, my 10 somewhat pricey, but fast moving, highly agile guys (no march and shoot needed) with their bows will no doubt rip through their ranks..but but but if all else fails, i'll launch my forest guard (which i quite like) against those citadel boys..sure what's the worst that can happen against march/shoot, fight in extra rank, shoot in extra rank, high res, armour, Ap and S5 etc...hardly R&F types even if they are pricey..the combination of attributes makes no sense and the concept of a basic core component goes out the window..a tough match even for the very best elf units..but we'll see how games go against them
  • JohnnyWicklow wrote:

    ...basic R&Fer, 1st entry; warrior und scatter gun for example..area attack, quick to fire, '1' re-rolls, march and shoot, r4/3+ with shield, branding (somewhat messy explanation) and scoring..nice stats if a little bizarre for a slow moving guy with no dexterity firing a flint & powder hand cannon..seems a bit too special to me and breaks with the whole rational behind core troops..not to worry, my 10 somewhat pricey, but fast moving, highly agile guys (no march and shoot needed) with their bows will no doubt rip through their ranks..but but but if all else fails, i'll launch my forest guard (which i quite like) against those citadel boys..sure what's the worst that can happen against march/shoot, fight in extra rank, shoot in extra rank, high res, armour, Ap and S5 etc...hardly R&F types even if they are pricey..the combination of attributes makes no sense and the concept of a basic core component goes out the window..a tough match even for the very best elf units..but we'll see how games go against them
    Dont forget the slaves that give those shots battle focus and immunity to DTs from forests.

    Background Team

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    Advisory Board

    Ammertime Podcast Host
    soundcloud.com/ammertime-podcast
    Team Ireland ETC 2019 :HE:
  • Fleshbeast wrote:

    What are everyone’s thoughts on the Lammassu Scholar (or whatever it’s name is) with the two spells face down and reveal after dispel attempt?

    I don’t like it and will be home-ruling it out when I play casually. Just seems like an unnecessary change to a core mechanic. Keen to get an item which just removes the opponent’s magic phase entirely in future.
    Personally Riddle of the Lammassu was my favourite new rule in the whole LAB, I really love the flavour and I feel something so unique does indeed warrant the text wall. My only dislike is how The Wheel Turns gets around Magical Resistance due to a clunky rules interaction, if it was replaced by the ID Hereditary spell which ignores MR anyways it would be perfect in my eyes.

    That being said I understand why many players wouldn't enjoy the rule, it is definitely a love it or hate it addition to the game.
    A Sylvan Elves Homebrew Full Army Book - last updated July 7, 2020
  • To be honest, at the moment I'm mostly playing close combat heavy lists with my SE. The thought behind is that with just 55 bows I often had big issues with killing main threats.
    That being said it is really hard for me to see the new ID toy around with 60 blunderbusses or flintlocks, put vassals with bows on top and add some artillery to put the cherries on the pie...
    Combined with autohits from both shooting and magic to make it worse.
    They won't play avoidance, they just straight up shoot down anything that tries to step up against them and doesn't have high resilience or high armor.

    I pretty much hope our LAB will help us to something like the HE hereditary that helps keeping the fragile elven units alive.
  • I haven't played with or against the new ID -but I did sit down and construct a list that I thought would be fun to play - yes there are a lot of powerful options in the book, but once you start making a list you start to realize that you can't fit everything in.

    Infernal Dwarves
    610 - Prophet, General, Prophet of Lugar, Kadim Chariot, Wizard Master, Pyromancy, Paired Weapons (Flame of the East), Tablet of Vezodinezh
    380 - Vizier, Seat of Authority, Shield, Battle Standard, Mask of Ages, Infernal Weapon (Onyx Core), Obsidian Rock
    545 - 20 Citadel Guard, Flintlock Axe, Standard Bearer, Musician
    545 - 20 Citadel Guard, Flintlock Axe, Standard Bearer, Musician
    401 - 20 Infernal Warriors, Blunderbuss, Standard Bearer
    140 - 20 Shackled Slaves, Paired Weapons, Musician
    140 - 20 Shackled Slaves, Paired Weapons, Musician
    644 - 23 Immortals, Infernal Weapon, Standard Bearer, Musician, Champion
    240 - Infernal Artillery, Rocket Battery (Ether Cloud)
    170 - 5 Vassal Cavalry
    170 - 5 Vassal Cavalry
    110 - Vassal Slingshot
    110 - Vassal Slingshot
    290 - Infernal Bastion
    4495

    So this is pretty heavy on the infantry shooting aspect - I originally had a lot of bow vassals as well but to fit those in you can't have the infernal bastion or the rockets. But I figured if you see the infernal bastion used you may see it used like this. I also only used half the character points, not sure if people will take more.

    No chariots, no tanks, and didn't max the artillery. All I did was max the flintlock axes/Blunderbusses - if someone maxes those options, they won't be able to take much else (unless they don't take the immortals). I was worried when all I was doing was reading people's reactions, but actually making a list helped me understand how the various parts work together and what we might see. Honestly I doubt you'll actually see that much infantry shooting, maybe the 20-30 blunderbuss/flintlock axes but they have short range - with the prevalence of monster meta (at least here in USA) I think more of the other artillery options and kadims/tanks will be used.
    I play SE, EoS, DH, UD, and KoE and use the units I like, not necessarily the best ones

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  • Hello everyone! :)

    Today I had the opportunity to bring out my DH miniatures and play a game against my friends SE army, of course I've used DH miniatures, but tried our new rules for ID! And I had a blast with it, I guess too much blast :)

    TL:DR - my friend had 0 models left at the start of ID turn 4, I was going 1st, so he just played whole 3 turns.
    My list:

    820 - Prophet of Nezibkesh, General, Infernal Bastion, Flintlock Axe (2+), Lugar's Dice, Triple Speed, Mask of Ages, Wizard Master, Pyromancy
    205 - Vizier, Shield, Blunderbuss (4+), Potion of Strength, Battle Standard Bearer, 2x Aether Icon
    534 - 22 Infernal Warriors, Shield, Blunderbuss (4+), Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer, Flaming Standard
    534 - 22 Infernal Warriors, Shield, Blunderbuss (4+), Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer, Flaming Standard
    120 - 20 Shackled Slaves, Paired Weapons
    500 - 20 Immortals, Great Weapon, Musician, Standard Bearer
    474 - 19 Immortals, Great Weapon, Musician, Standard Bearer
    170 - 5 Vassal Cavalry
    170 - 5 Vassal Cavalry
    155 - Gunnery Team, Titan Mortar (4+), Cluster Munitions
    155 - Gunnery Team, Titan Mortar (4+), Cluster Munitions
    260 - Infernal Artillery, Rocket Battery (4+), Kadim Manifestation
    110 - Vassal Slingshot
    290 - Infernal Bastion

    His list (from the top of my memory)

    Shamanism Wizard Master hero heart paired weapon
    Druidism Wizard Master magic res(2) +1 channel
    Prince with distracting spear 1+/5++
    BSB with ballista bow and magic res(2)
    23 Archers soft cover banner
    26 Dryads
    28 Woodsmen soft cover banner(those elves with 2 handed axes)
    6 Treekins
    10 Sentinels
    1 Eagle

    The game was really one-sided and of course it was fun for me playing those undestructable bricks of T4 3+ and soft cover dwarves, I've felt like playing 40k, but I think that my opponent felt it same way, the problem is that he had elves with bows and I had space marines with terminator armours and blasters...

    Hereditary is super strong, with 7+ cv I was able to kill 1/6 of his Dryads, Archers and 1/3 of his Woodsmen :O
    Two Titan mortar gunnery teams were really devastating against his elves, sure it is just s3ap0, but having 39" effective range, cluster munition and flaming swords... it was like hell for poor Men in Tights.
    The only target for Rocket battery were Treekins and with 2 turns of shooting here I hit 4 times, then it was so easy to wound on rerollable 2+ (yeah, flaming sword aura) and their only save was 5+ ward, due to divine attacks all 4 wounds were successful, but with 4d3 I did whole 5 wounds, so you know... bad luck here for me.
    But it is not the end of the story, my opponent had soft cover banners and woods everywhere, so my poor Blunderbusses were shooting on 6s at long range... but you know what? I just needed five 6s to get 15 hits wounding on rerollable 3+ against Woodsmen (thank you slaves, thank you vassals, thank you flaming swords!) Then next turn I had 31 hits(4+ rerolling 1s) wounding on rerollable 4+ against his Dryads (I love you slaves, love you vassals, oh flaming swords you're hot too!)
    Infernal bastions with 360 los for spells and shooting is boosted, 96" range hereditary is boosted, but imho most overpowered candidate here are... flaming swords, this spell is way way stronger in this army than in any other.
    The other thing is while I had really huge firepower that was super effective against everything in his army, even T4 5++ dryads weren't any problem, but for his archers and magic my T4 3+ dwarves in soft cover were something that he had no chance to move, even gunnery team with 4hp, 4+ and hard target was really problematic to kill, Immortals were fighting with all things that I couldnt shoot off, so few Treekins, Prince with spear, few Woodsmen (regrowth was really helpful here) but it was nothing that Immortals couldn't fight back.

    Overall feeling of the army is really nice, ID close combat capabilities are nowhere near those of Warriors of the Dark Gods, but omnipresent synergies alongside with magic and well-armored, strong and tough dwarf profiles are way too powerful, and in my humble opinion the problem is not 1 or 2 entries, almost whole book should be like 25% more expensive and flaming synergy should be little nerfed.

    @kangur I guess nobody will be offended if Kangur will reply here how this game looked from his perspective :)