Nippon

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  • Caledoriv wrote:

    There is no "homebrew fluff" yet - at least none that I know of. Hence, only the rules would be affected at this point.
    As far as I'm aware of, there is still zero fluff written on the subject by the BGT, too.
    The only official thing about Nippon in the Ninth Age so far is that there are islands shown on the world map East of Tsuandan. Nothing else has been created about it, ever, be it in homebrew or by the official teams.
    So anything you would write could be used as a brainstorming for the project at a later stage.

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  • Giladis wrote:

    This is a very important bit. If the rules you wrote are based on GW IP
    Actually, the army is based on Mathias Eliasson's hombrew army book (warhammerarmiesproject.blogspot.com/), which originally was intended for Warhammer. He also wrote fluff for the army in the context of Warhammer and the Old World. I was referring to this fluff.

    I merely modified the rules of the army to fit T9A (with Mathias' consent) and incorporated my personal ideas on how the army should work. Now, the names of units and special rules are about the only things that are similar to his original work; the units themselves have evolved quite a bit, some were removed and some newly introduced. So no, it has nothing to do with GW :) .

    My statement above was merely implying that there currently is no T9A fluff for this army. I.e. nothing will be "lost" if there are significant changes.
  • @Caledoriv thanks for the explanation. :)


    Ghiznuk wrote:

    As far as I'm aware of, there is still zero fluff written on the subject by the BGT, too.
    The only official thing about Nippon in the Ninth Age so far is that there are islands shown on the world map East of Tsuandan. Nothing else has been created about it, ever, be it in homebrew or by the official teams.
    So anything you would write could be used as a brainstorming for the project at a later stage.
    There has been discussion on the name as @Calisson shared on the previous page and there is tangential information while not specific on the area or its people which would still influence anything we add in the future. Things such as evolution and distribution of languages, spread of human pantheons during the post Great Cataclysm migrations, factions who have a presence in the area and how they interact with others or in other words how their neighbours have influenced them and what in the existing factions might have been reflected from them, etc...


    Grouchy Badger wrote:

    Come off it, really. GW blatantly borrowed from Asian mythology down to magical dragons. Last I checked GW didnt copywrite the Japanese Mythical Pathion.
    IP is iffy stuff we like to be safe rather than sorry. What I am saying is the work is based of GW's take on Japanese culture that it is not good for us, BUT there is nothing stopping us to use the same sources GW used for their inspiration when creating our own fantasy equivalent of far eastern faction :)

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  • Giladis wrote:

    @Caledoriv thanks for the explanation. :)


    Ghiznuk wrote:

    As far as I'm aware of, there is still zero fluff written on the subject by the BGT, too.
    The only official thing about Nippon in the Ninth Age so far is that there are islands shown on the world map East of Tsuandan. Nothing else has been created about it, ever, be it in homebrew or by the official teams.
    So anything you would write could be used as a brainstorming for the project at a later stage.
    There has been discussion on the name as @Calisson shared on the previous page and there is tangential information while not specific on the area or its people which would still influence anything we add in the future. Things such as evolution and distribution of languages, spread of human pantheons during the post Great Cataclysm migrations, factions who have a presence in the area and how they interact with others or in other words how their neighbours have influenced them and what in the existing factions might have been reflected from them, etc...

    Grouchy Badger wrote:

    Come off it, really. GW blatantly borrowed from Asian mythology down to magical dragons. Last I checked GW didnt copywrite the Japanese Mythical Pathion.
    IP is iffy stuff we like to be safe rather than sorry. What I am saying is the work is based of GW's take on Japanese culture that it is not good for us, BUT there is nothing stopping us to use the same sources GW used for their inspiration when creating our own fantasy equivalent of far eastern faction :)
    Any stuff on Asianic culture barely made it past Cathay, and even that was a foot note with no official army. Everything else about it was fanmade and never recognized by GW, let alone trademarked. GW has no hold over the idea of Fantasy samurai anymore than they have a hold over the name space marine.
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  • Grouchy Badger wrote:

    Everything else about it was fanmade
    Are you sure about that? I distinctly remember reading about Nippon in some GW publication at around the time of late 3rd edition.

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  • Giladis wrote:

    Are you sure about that? I distinctly remember reading about Nippon in some GW publication at around the time of late 3rd edition.
    I remember seeing GW models of Samurai, Ninja and Ashigaru.

    So yeah, GW were interested in them at some point, but never added to them.

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  • GW have very little GW-owned IP relating to a Japanese themed setting - they did a tiny list in 1987-88 and produced a handful of models - almost none of which was actually any more proprietary than “space marine” (Good luck copyrighting “Ninja” GW..)

    As such settings in real world based cultures and areas like those that GW termed Nippon, araby, cathay, kislev etc are even more “open source” than those factions they really did develop
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  • Giladis wrote:

    Grouchy Badger wrote:

    Everything else about it was fanmade
    Are you sure about that? I distinctly remember reading about Nippon in some GW publication at around the time of late 3rd edition.
    Late 3rd Edition is barely relevant. Unless you steal a specially named character from the GW franchise:

    They cannot claim Nippon, as its a damn country that exists.
    They cannot claim samurai.
    They cannot claim Oni.
    They cannot claim ashigaru.
    They cannot claim *anything* except specially named characters.

    The IP argument is a waste of time and borders on fearmongering as an excuse.
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  • Grouchy Badger wrote:

    The IP argument is a waste of time and borders on fearmongering as an excuse.
    Still, the project uses the approach "better save than sorry" in this matter.
    That decision has already been made. So there's no use arguing over it now.

    That said, there shouldn't be a problem in this regard if the names of units and rules are changed. Unless I am missing something?
  • Caledoriv wrote:

    Grouchy Badger wrote:

    The IP argument is a waste of time and borders on fearmongering as an excuse.
    Still, the project uses the approach "better save than sorry" in this matter.That decision has already been made. So there's no use arguing over it now.

    That said, there shouldn't be a problem in this regard if the names of units and rules are changed. Unless I am missing something?
    The units should be fine since theyre based off of actual units and mythology present. Unless you plugged in a "of the whatever" after the unit name to sparkle it up a little. Samurai of the Water Fall or what have you.
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  • piteglio wrote:

    side note: i think Tiny was only referring to popular choice determining the book's name.
    Yes, I was.

    But obviously it translates onto many aspects how input can and can’t be provided or received for and by the project.

    The team needs to have entitlement over the product it develops. Asking for input by the wider community and trying to find a way how to process and facilitate the given input is one thing. Taking and facilitating input that has not been ask for by the team is something quite different.
  • Even the name "Nippon" we can go ahead and directly use if we want to. It's the name the Japanese themselves use for their country for God's sake. Not even GW could pull a stunt like that.

    As for Kislev - that's a month in the Jewish calendar.

    GW begged, borrowed and stole from anywhere - and they knew this so they themselves went down the IP-able route - leaving us with monstrosities like orroks and ogors but best of all, a tacit admission that much of their generic naming pre Age of Smegma was definitely not protected.

    Anyway. GW will never cease and desist us, just like they havent touched warhammer armies project for 3 very good reasons

    1) we shift loads of their minis for them to gaming types they otherwise have burnt bridges with

    2). I think they care somewhat nowadays about not looking like corporate bullies now that "Grand Moff Kirby" is no longer tightening his counter productive fingers - I still chuckle at what a corporate laughing stock he made of them with his clumsy spots the spaceman fiasco - thats probably in MBA "how not to do stuff" courses - right up there with Gerald Ratner in the big arrogance collides with low IQ interesctions.

    3). They know we could get really nasty and stick all manner of stuff they really dont want including links to forgeworld knock offs from china on servers in Laos or whatever if they want to push us underground but this time taking a large community with us. Pretty soon they'd exaust their legal budget playing a close-down whack a mole.

    So we have nothing to fear from the Evil Empire, and they aren't even that evil anymore now they have a bloke with at least one functioning brain cell as CEO...
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    The post was edited 4 times, last by Vulgarsty ().

  • Hmm... also, how would it look if someone looks through an “official” book and recognizes that it’s extremely similar to a Warhammer Armies Project book?

    It’s one thing to have something similar to a real faction from the old world, in a game that started as a successor to that, and even then we’re trying to distance ourselves. But an “official” book that’s a copy of a fan made game, made for the Warhammer fantasy just doesn’t feel right
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    Hmm... also, how would it look if someone looks through an “official” book and recognizes that it’s extremely similar to a Warhammer Armies Project book?

    It’s one thing to have something similar to a real faction from the old world, in a game that started as a successor to that, and even then we’re trying to distance ourselves. But an “official” book that’s a copy of a fan made game, made for the Warhammer fantasy just doesn’t feel right
    Unless anyone makes money it doesn't even matter. Ive found the other book and given it a read through, and the one on here is better.
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  • I haven’t gone through either, I’m just going off of Caledons post saying it’s basically that one tweaked for T9a. Take to another extreme, and imagine we copied all of Warhammer army projects’ factions, rewrote the names, tweaked them just enough to fit T9A and then claimed them as our own... it really looks bad.

    how close the two are to each other? I don’t know, don’t care, but if “basically copied and tweaked to fit the ninth age” is accurate, or if it resembles it enough then I think that’s really a bad thing. If this was just another fun fan made project for Warhammer that some random friends play with no intention of going big then sure, but it’s not
  • gotta agree with Marcos here.
    have you seen what happened when someone proposed an icon for the new VS book that looks too much like a GW miniature?

    very upsetting, in different ways, for different people.

    it takes half a day to collect all names from the new RisingSun book, put them all in a post, and check if something screams GW or just far eastern lore.

    if you want to argue about the principle, sure, go ahead. but that's probably not the most effective use of your (our) time.


  • Grouchy Badger wrote:

    Marcos24 wrote:

    Hmm... also, how would it look if someone looks through an “official” book and recognizes that it’s extremely similar to a Warhammer Armies Project book?

    It’s one thing to have something similar to a real faction from the old world, in a game that started as a successor to that, and even then we’re trying to distance ourselves. But an “official” book that’s a copy of a fan made game, made for the Warhammer fantasy just doesn’t feel right
    Unless anyone makes money it doesn't even matter. Ive found the other book and given it a read through, and the one on here is better.
    Than play with it. No harm doing that at all. You are entitled to play the games you enjoy. I personally like Nippon too. Thats more than perfectly fine. Just don’t expect something like this:

    Grouchy Badger wrote:

    This is the most fleshed out homebrew book we have. Why aint it official yet? Been years now it seems like.
    There is a lot of entitlement in the underlying assumption the team would take any external resource and give it as is an official title.

    As you can tell by the previous answers the project is still busy getting the existing 16 ABs up to speed, it has not even really started to flesh out the sidelines. Likely this going to be so for years to come and even if the project gets to that point, it is far from certain that a fantasy-japan would be on the short list of projects to explore in depth. The rule makers will question if adding another human centric army adds enough game variety to explore a new and different enough game play to the already existing army books. The background writers will question if a fantasy-japan fits into their vision of the world and even if, whether highlighting it over some of the other already “established“ fractions (e.g. Tsuandan) is the right thing to do. Obviously the project creative process follows its own internal rules. If we want people to join the T9A staff and to do the required labor (by far not all of it is pure fun) we have to give them the entitlement to fill their respective role and as such the process can not be easily influence from the sideline.
  • So what's the problem? I thought there'd be significant changes needed anyway for the homebrew books if anything "official" was to happen with it? Whatever that means; be it a "T9A approved stamp" or indeed an official supplement book or something else entirely.

    I never thought the current iteration would get "accepted" / "stamped" / whatever as it is. Sure, some mechanics can / should be reused to keep the identity of the army. But that doesn't mean every unit in the book must be transferred as it is... Or even that every unit that currently is in the book also has to be in an "official" version.