The new ID Book says good bye to R&F rules

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    • The new ID Book says good bye to R&F rules

      Hello on everyone here,

      First of all sorry for my english.

      I just wanted to give my opinion to the new ID Book.

      I read that book and the first thing that came to my mind was:

      OMG thats hillarious!!

      Why you asking? Well let me give you a few examples:

      1. 360° of firepower with no R&F or Line of Sight (20 Infernal Guard with Blunderbusses and an Infernal Bastion are Like 35 Modells you can play them seven!! Deep... Dwarfs seven Deep they will never Run...)
      2. March and Shoot (Totally crazy cause of the first Point)
      3. Blunderbusses with Quick to Fire and Area Attack 2x1 (27" range cause of March and Shoot with always 20 Modells Shooting)
      4. Whole Army with Infernal Armour (Arm3 and Aegis 5+ against Flame)
      5. Giants with Armour 4 and a Tower Shield which gives the Giant Hard Cover and Distracting (Basically deleting the weakness of Giants)
      6. Divine Attacks for War Machines
      7. War Machines that can march and shoot with Quick to fire (Gunnery Teams 4 Shoots S5 AP2 Multiple Wounds D3 with Flaming Attacks and Magical Attacks for 190 Points)
      8. Normal Magic
      9. Riddle of the Lamassu (just insane)
      10. Large Infantery which doesnt care for units or Terrain in Charge
      11. Lots of low cost Scoring Units
      12. Big War Machines with Accurate

      So in a competive way i really say THANK YOU cause this Book will be my number one Tournament Book, cause it really has no weakness! I mean look at DH for example they can be outflanked und the War Machines of them are extremly static. ID dont have that they have better armour then their brothers und they dont have a problem with outflanking cause they fire and cast 360°.

      On the other Hand this book just takes out every R&F rule, that made the game so tactical....
      You can Fire and Cast 360° with an Gigantic Line of side, you dont have to keep an eye on youre Formation and you can cast magic the enemy cant see!!!
      I mean those two rules alone are saying check Mate to nearly all Res3 armies.

      So my personal Opinion as an ID Player is:
      Please fix that Book and Turn it Upside Down cause its just tooooo crazy, every Army needs an weak spot and this book absolutely has none.
      Just look at youre other books and compare it to this and please don´t say this will be the future of T9A cause that would be an extremly wrong step. This Book has nothing to do with an R&F Tabletop Game it just laughs on all the restrictions other armys have.

      Just my Personal opinion.

      And for all that read the till here i say Thank you and have a Nice Time. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
    • thanks for your feedback

      Have you played some games? Have you build some list?

      I dont need bastion to win with ID. So no need 360 los for anything.

      Large models have fly before.
      Warmachines CANT march and shoot
      Gunnery team is more expensive than imperial rocketeer? Same str, less ap, 1 shoot more, but penalties for cover? No one use imperial one

      Wich unit is low cost for you as scoring in your list? And how many scoring are you fielding?

      Magic, ok
      Arty, ok
      Lammassu, annoying, not insane
      Giants, can be adjusted with points

      Against res3, same power as before more or less, depend of your list

      And if you can, play this tournament and win. .. and later send the feedback. Lists against you play, objectives, etc please
      Kislev army thread, We need You!
      New Army book Hetmanate of Ukray

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Villon ().

    • Villon wrote:

      thanks for your feedback

      Have you played some games? Have you build some list?

      I dont need bastion to win with ID. So no need 360 los for anything.

      Large models have fly before.
      Warmachines CANT march and shoot
      Gunnery team is more expensive than imperial rocketeer? Same str, less ap, 1 shoot more, but penalties for cover? No one use imperial one

      Wich unit is low cost for you as scoring in your list? And how many scoring are you fielding?

      Magic, ok
      Arty, ok
      Lammassu, annoying, not insane
      Giants, can be adjusted with points

      Against res3, same power as before more or less, depend of your list

      And if you can, play this tournament and win. .. and later send the feedback. Lists against you play, objectives, etc please
      Four games till now the badest was an 15:5. I will post the games of the tournament here too than we can discuss about it ;) .

      For youre Points:
      -Warmachines cant march and shoot --> Gunnery Teams can and hell they are extremly great against all big ones cause of Multiple Wounds D3 with Clipped Wings, that will guide me to youre next point with the imperial rocketeer. Imperial Rocketeer costs 160 so 30 points less but lets talk about what makes the gunnery so much better:
      -March and Shoot with Quick Fire vs. Stand or Shoot with no Shooting under 15"
      -4 Shots vs. 3 Shots
      -Clipped wings vs. none
      -Flaming and magical attacks vs. none
      -Hard Target and Infernal Armour vs. no Defense
      -Divine attacks if another flaming attack is cast on vs. none
      -Ap2 vs. AP3 you get that point

      So in my opinion thats way more worth than 30 points

      and for the rest of youre points you just look on the single pictures not onto the whole drawing...
      Take the Rocket Gunnery Team with Lamassu, you can cast flaming swords on them first youre oponent has to decide if it is the sword or not so maybe he will not ban afterwards you can decide which unit gets the swords, then you have a bunch of vassal cavs that are just debuffing the main threatening units with Incendiary so they are flamable. Now you have +1to wound with wound reroll and d3 wounds and divine attacks for an unit that runs with youre blocks and cant be attacked if you play just a little bit carefully...

      Now the point with Infernal Bastion:
      its 290 Points not 360 and if you play an Prophet on it its just 230 and the Prophet will be an 3+ Engineer too...
      And the 360 Degree is just to good to not be played.

      Vassal Levis are for Dwarfes extremly low at cost i mean DH does not have something like that.

      I just say this book is way off balance.
    • @Almentro
      The book was released to open for general playtesting. The team of PT isnt that big, so if you asumed the book would be perfectly balanced when it came out you are severly wrong sir.
      Both WotdG and DL had to go through a plethora of changes to make them reasonably balanced, and as far as personal preference go I would rather have the book come in a litle strong.

      As far as your points of critique I agree on some of them.
      1. 360° of firepower with no R&F or Line of Sight (20 Infernal Guard with Blunderbusses and an Infernal Bastion are Like 35 Modells you can play them seven!! Deep... Dwarfs seven Deep they will never Run...)

      Havent touched them. With a block that big even if you can turn around to fire into other stuff the block has massive flanks and needs protecting. Playing against an experienced player means he will punish it and probably take advantage of it. It has a lot of the same issues as a doom bell. If you dont face any ambushers or fast elements I guess you will have reasonably control. But Beast Herd with multiple fast units against it will give it a lot of headaches.

      2. March and Shoot (Totally crazy cause of the first Point)
      I dont think so. Id rather say that Cita Guards having 3rd rank fire is a bit strong, but march and shoot? Not really.


      3. Blunderbusses with Quick to Fire and Area Attack 2x1 (27" range cause of March and Shoot with always 20 Modells Shooting)
      Good against infantery. Monsters will laugh at it. Its a lot like many other weapons.

      4. Whole Army with Infernal Armour (Arm3 and Aegis 5+ against Flame)
      Not different from the vastly underpowered version people played before this new version. How is it that the army was on the bottom 3 of the powerladder before and nobody made a sound about infernal armour, and now when it is exactly the same its suddenly op?

      5. Giants with Armour 4 and a Tower Shield which gives the Giant Hard Cover and Distracting (Basically deleting the weakness of Giants)
      I agree on this one. Id probably make the tower shield upgrade more expensive and slightly up the base cost of giants.

      6. Divine Attacks for War Machines
      Only if you play them with flaming.
      With HBE being really favoured in the meta right now im not sure its so strong. Against Deamons sure, but they are also reasonably well equpped to handle those things if they run multiple spears (my list usually has options for at least 4) they can easily take out Gunnery teams as only 2 needs to pass). Warmachines have very limited range compared to other warmachines. So I dont think they are OP.
      You can either place them agresively, but open them up for you opponent to kill off, or place them defensively and make them a liability for ambushers, fast units, but overall safer. But you will relenquish a lot of board control.

      7. War Machines that can march and shoot with Quick to fire (Gunnery Teams 4 Shoots S5 AP2 Multiple Wounds D3 with Flaming Attacks and Magical Attacks for 190 Points)
      Could probably come up somewhat in price. But again rocket batteries are static, but does the Gunnery team job better than them because it sits very well within EoS static playstyle.

      8. Normal Magic

      9. Riddle of the Lamassu (just insane)
      Why is it insane?
      Personally the spells on the lamasu is really good, but it is also spells you most likely always would like to boost. And boosted versions doesnt gain the secret casting thing. I think its fine, and not really that strong to be fair. I do however love the desing, very inventive.


      10. Large Infantery which doesnt care for units or Terrain in Charge
      Not sure what you are referring to here.
      You mean because of the slave rule?
      If so I have about 15 games on ID now (including the ones in the WiP process) and I have never used the ability to negate terrain once.

      11. Lots of low cost Scoring Units
      You might have a different defintion of low cost scoring units then me. What do you think of when you refer to low cost scoring units?
      Less than 300 pts?
      Less than 200 pts?
      Min size or the size they are usually run at ?
      Compared to other armies im not sure i agree on this one :P

      12. Big War Machines with Accurate
      Lacks range. If they didnt have accurate they would be at a severe disadvantage to most other elite armies that sports warmachines.

      To sum up, I do think there are a few things that needs a bit of tuning, but I a lot of your points as listed above are simply wrong.
      I do also feel you fail to mention some of the stuff I have labeled as too strong, that you dont even mention.

      I would like you to present a list that fits all of your op things in. I dont think you can have it all.
      Please post your strongest list and lets see it ^^
      Karl-Erik Hansen
      Kalerith
      :thumbsup:

      Team Norway O&G 2016 Athens
      Team Norway O&G 2017 Salamanca
      Team Norway VC 2018 Zagreb
      Team Norway ID 2019 Novi Sad
    • First of all i just said my opinion and did not attack anyone with my feedback.
      Yes its a feedback not an attack.

      For the first point with the big block of dwarfs, lets just get it with math.

      1. Without any buffs against Res3 HBE(cause in youre opinion they are meta):
      Enemy Unit Seaguard Long range:
      Hits on 5+ Wounds on 4+
      20 Shots are 6,6 hits lets get up to 7 so its 14 hits. 14 Hits are 7 Wounds.
      He saves one so its 6 Dead elves.

      So now comes the point with the lamassu. Normally you take flaming swords and breath of corruption. Both of them you dont need buffed and they are crazy. Especially cause you can sacrifice after. The Enemy has to nearly ban everytime the lamassu casts. Cause Flaming swords are really bad to let ID have. For example the block on top with Flaming swords, Shackled Slaves and Incendiary on Enemy (3 Buffs you can easy do on the unit):
      Hits on 5+ Wounds on 3+ with rr
      So its 7 hits but with 3 sixes so its 17 hits. 11 wounds after first throw 6 times reroll cause flammable another 4 wounds so 15 wounds.
      That are 13 maybe 12 dead seaguards. Double.... with just one cast spell which the enemy never knows if you casted it right now or not.

      And the bad thing is you do this 360° without even thinking of youre R&F.

      Point 3 why did you bring up monsters? That was a totally unnecassery example i think no one will shoot on a monster with them.....

      The Problem you mentioned with fast armys is that this armys have really low armour and you can shoot 360°. How on Hell will an Beastmen come Close if he can not get out of line of sight.

      Vassal Levis for 140 Points are low cost scoring especially for dwarfs.

      I will post my list after the tournament with all the results.
      Maybe my opinions are wrong, maybe some, maybe none are wrong.

      We will see right now its 6 games without an loss. Let us continiue the discussion after the first tournament game with my list open for all

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Almentro ().

    • Kalerith wrote:




      9. Riddle of the Lamassu (just insane)

      Why is it insane?
      Personally the spells on the lamasu is really good, but it is also spells you most likely always would like to boost. And boosted versions doesnt gain the secret casting thing. I think its fine, and not really that strong to be fair. I do however love the desing, very inventive.

      Just a small clarification here, the Lammasu doesnt have the ability to cast without secret casting, so it can never actually use the boosted version of these spells.

      I also love the design, its my favourite part of the book.
      Probably the Least Useless Player in the World - International Herminard Poll 2018
    • And in my gaming group nobody likes this design.

      Adding a guessing game seems to fit into age of sigmar (the beginnings of it), not in a game that has a big rulebook full of rules that define the game, and should not be broken at every possible moment in new books because it is "fun" for the one player.....and totally unfun for the other one.
    • I still think people should get used to a new army for some time before giving feedback. At first glance new things are always weird, but the overall power of the army cannot be measured by a glance at individual rules.
      For example, think about DH as if the book was new:
      in an army with lots of units with Res4 and arm 4, and a 6++/5++ aegis save if fighting in the front, you can equip characters with an item that
      erases your flank and rear (everything is considered front, so no CR bonus for flank or rear, aegis always active as everything is front, and no disruption possible. And that for 30p!

      A war machine with an average of 14 shots (with engineer they have aim 3+) S5 Ap3 and it can get +1 to wound. And you can use 2 of them, they kill every monster in 1 round on average, and if there are no monsters they simply shoot other stuff as there are no bad targets.

      The army weakness is supposed to be speed, but the whole army can vanguard and they have triple march. You face a very sturdy melee army 3'' away from your deployment zone round 1!

      A unit of fighters who are unbreakable, wound everything easily and even get an extra attack if they die. And they caneven include characters with 6Att S5 Ap2 D3wounds agi 8 Off8! You cannot touch that unit with anything containing a character.

      I could go on, but you get the idea: looking at a book like it is unknown to you, and spotlighting singled out instances of rules or units found there makes it very easy to overestimate things. A couple of games are not enough to get the real picture, even if things work real good for the new book, since nobody is used to those rules, mistakes are made.

      So play, play some more, and think about how to handle things. There will be things OP, and those will be adressed, but many will turn out OK in the context of the army, even if they would be OP in another army.
    • Oh we did some ID test games. And even with horrible rolls of ID artillery and misplacement all over the board because ID dropped to start, there was no chance with a R3 army against it. By turn 3 all the infantry stuff was in no fighting condition any more. (4 of 24 imperial guard and 19 out of 35 heavy infantry were alive. On the other side by turn 4 I killed the train with artillery, before canon did not wound 2 times in a row.

      At the end of the game the last survivor of the 35 heavy infanty (hidden behind a building for ID turn 5+6) scored the scenario for a draw. Overall game ended 17:3.

      Pretty much the same picture with DE, there just the 1+AS BSB on foot and a unit of 6 Dread knigths with banner of blood were able to kill some of the ID units because of another target priority. Just a unit of corsairs survived, because they fled from a train charge in turn 3 and managed to escape and rally again.

      KoE and dwarfs had a bit better cards, but thanks to more than enough "can be used as redirectors" things in a reasonable price range, both armies finally lost the game with 3-7 points.

      In all these games the oponent knew the ID army at least as good as the ID player and we reread the rules everytime it was necessary. An additional spectator helped a lot to not forget or play rules in the wrong way.
    • Of course we did, but this goes for both sides.
      It is not the case that the ID plyaer does the perfect game and the other one does the mistakes. We did the after game analysis together, 3 of us, and the conclusion was, that the games would have even be more onesided when the mistakes are reduced and dices roll average.


      Our conclusion...a completely other army design....just resilent / good armor on high movement troops would work. So no more infantry. Overload on monsters and monstrous units if they are fast and numerous, bring 2 flame ward cowboys and perhaps long range artillery that can kill the trains and a kadim.
      But don´t bring any R3 infantry to fight ID.
    • And here we go thats what i say and what i think.

      All kind of elves are near to an auto win.
      And the fast armys like beast men for example dont have the Armour to fight the ID shooting AND CC power.
      And for example KoE and WotdG are maybe the best to go against them but here too, you have alchemy and alot of Armour Piercing shoots.
      And the main problem for KoE is that the main firepower is S4 or Lower....

      HBE have with Knights of Ryuma and Fire Phoenix two good units but both are colapsing in an 24 men Block of Citadel Guard with Spear and Shield(and normaly they have Pistols too). Dont wanna talk about Immortals cause they are the absolut overkill for every cav and monster that charges them.
      Only way you can deal with immortals are many shooting attacks or big cc blocks with s4. But if you play them, you have the terrible shooting power of the ID and youre CC Block wont come to fight and shoot outs will always be for you
    • Hi, I've only played against a very solid ID player using DH and found that 2 rune crafted cata with engineer caused mayhem for ID and demolished immortals and weapons teams..big block of spears with rune buffs and king, 2 blocks of KG and shielding banner meant i could weather the shooting storm quite well..i went with as much MR and magic defence as possible to neutralise pyro..ended 19:1..i dropped all seekers from the list and went with the armour and AP qualities of KG instead..haven't played against the new ID book yet but roughly speaking i'd take a similar list

      that's my 2cents
    • I think @Almentro should start posting list suggestions instead of stating how OP this and that is. In fact actually putting models on a board (virtual or not) is the only way to prove anything more than personal opinions.

      As a matter of fact I did just that this morning. My fellow ETC member nantuko and I played a game this morning.
      We did Marching column and Breakthrough deployment. I fielded UD, he fielded ID.
      My list was:

      Adept Wizard (Cosmo)
      Master wiz divi on ark
      20 skellies musician
      20 skellies w musician, banner and relentless company x2
      20 skellies w musician and ambush banner
      5 scout horsmen x 2
      3 Sand stalker w ambush x 3
      1 Catapult
      2 Necrosfinx
      1 battle sfinx

      He played
      Master wiz alchemy engineer flintlock
      Bsb w flintlock, flaming banner, wall banner, basalt infusion, kadim bindings
      27 Citaguards w flintlocks
      14 Blunderbuss warriors
      20 slaves pw
      6 Taurukh anointed w shields, musician x 2
      Giant w tower shield x 3
      Infernal artillery w rocket battery x 2

      Long story short, my sand stalkers did very litle because of my inability to roll more than an 7 on 3d6 hits, but in return he failed to kill my sfinxes in crucial moments, either due to his inability to roll 6s to wounds or my ability to save on 4,5and6s when it mattered most.
      His rocket batteries decided to blow up or stop shooting due to several misfires in early stages. My catapult did the same to be polite.
      Basicly the things I expected to do well did poorly, and the stuff I expected to do mediocre did amazing stuff.
      I got a charge into flintlocks w bsb, first round I took 1 wound, had 2 left, 2nd round I took 0, killed bsb ( got of rr to hit and divine attacks) stomped another 4 and broke him. That ended it right there as I had his mage pinned into my skellies w ambush. Additionaly the other necro sphinx managed to win cc 3 times against taurukh anointed, 3rd time he broke and I chased him off the table.
      Battle sphinx combined with a skeleton unit got the other unit of anointed as he fled from a flank charge from battle sphinx first time, rallied and got charged again. By the end of his T5 (still my T5 to come) he had 1 giant left, one on full wounds fighting my bunker, but he failed to kill my battle sphinx w lash, so I had a flank to come next turn. He also had his mage and 8 blunderbusses left. I had lost both my horse chaff, 2 skelly blobs and one stalker unit.
      I had all my sfinxes on 1-2 wounds remaining, but had 2 phases to heal them to the point he wouldnt get half off them.
      So we concluded with a 20-0 for me as I was on route to claim secondary with my last unit of skeletons besides the bunker, and he had pretty much no way left to claim my sphinxes.

      First time playing against new ID (not with). Felt like I was in a decent spot for most of the time, could have been easier to win if my rolls on the stalkers were more average so my sfinxes didnt need to roll some lucky saves to flip the script, but overall I think the book felt good to play against. UD dont really care about shooting modifiers, so I will probably need to gather more data with other armies regarding how strong the tower shield feels, but Anointeds felt about right for their points cost, Rocket batteries were pretty tragic, at least the one from infernal artillery, the tank or gunnery team option looks more intriguing to me at least. flintlocks surprised me, thought they would be better, but good use of terrain really negated their ability to impact the game, so I might have gotten of easy, but I reckon a cowboy can pin them as easily as a sfinx, are faster and easier to hide than one when it comes to protecting it from shooting. But any monster with a decent save can do the job I think.

      To be fair to my opponent his list is probably a bit different from what is percieved to be the general ID list, as he favoured board control and more fighting power instead of investing to heavily into chaff, shooting and support elements. Saying that, he had 40+ small arms shots and 2 batteries, but for ID standards that might be a bit light.
      Karl-Erik Hansen
      Kalerith
      :thumbsup:

      Team Norway O&G 2016 Athens
      Team Norway O&G 2017 Salamanca
      Team Norway VC 2018 Zagreb
      Team Norway ID 2019 Novi Sad
    • Like i promised here is the my List for the Tournament:

      ·Overlord/ Shield/ Basalt Infusion/ Ring of Desication/ Bull of Shamut/ Army General 590
      ·Prophet of Nezibkesh/ Master Alchemy/ Magic Heirloom/ Infernal Bastion 700
      ·Vizier/ BSB/ Flintlock Axe/ Triple Speed 235
      ·21x Infernal Warriors w. Shield and Blunderbuss M/S Flaming Standard 495
      ·22x Citadel Guard w. Spear and Pistol C/M/S Flaming Standard 608
      ·20x Shakled Slaves 120
      ·Lamassu Scholar 300
      ·Gunnery Team Rocket Battery/ Kadim Manifestation 190
      ·Gunnery Team Rocket Battery/ Kadim Manifestation 190
      ·5x Vassal Cavalry 170
      ·5x Vassal Cavalry 170
      ·Infernal Engine Rock Crusher 400
      ·Infernal Giant w. Tower Shield 330
      4498 Points

      First match against SE with:
      610 - Avatar of Nature, General
      565 - Forest Prince, Great Elk, Light Armour (Destinys Call), Sylvan Blades (Titanic Might), Wild Hunter
      365 - Druid, Wizard Master, Druidism
      245 - Chieftain, Battle Standard Bearer, Binding Scroll
      420 - 10 Heath Riders, Shield, Standard Bearer (Flaming Standard), Musician, Champion
      205 - 5 Heath Riders, Heath Hunters
      200 - 5 Heath Riders, Shield, Musician
      170 - 15 Forest Guard, Spear and Shield
      150 - 8 Dryads, Scoring
      435 - Treefather
      445 - 10 Pathfinders
      345 - 10 Sylvan Sentinels
      345 - 10 Sylvan Sentinels
      4500

      It was Counterthrust with Capture the Flags on Map 4.

      My enemy was taking the south i got the First turn

      The game Ended 3845- 2385 with secundarys for me

      so 17-3

      Hard fought game with bad luck on both sides (but a little bit more for my opponent).