Fantasy.....

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  • Fantasy.....

    Fantasy....let that thought mull around for a second...

    Ok, what came to your mind..probably, elves, orcs, dragons etc (TBH, probably stuff out of lord of the rings)

    What's the last, or near last thing that comes to mind..that's right black powder weapons (you were wondering where this thread was going weren't you)

    Now my argument is that blackpowder/gunpowder weapons are way too historically advanced to exist in a game of fantasy war games, it could even be argued that even crossbow are pushing it, but certainly things like blundrrbusses, handguns, cannons and pistols feel out of place.

    Looking at the armies that have these, I am willing to give the dwarven armies a pass as, at least they feel like a fantasy army. All you would need to do is take out the gunpowder weapons and cannons and replace them with something else.

    This leads us to our biggest culprit...Empire of something or other ...I mean this entire army feels like it is way too historically advanced to exist in a fantasy wargame, it feels more like the ppl that play that army would be better suited playing historical reenactment wargames. I mean c'mon the army has a freaking TANK, being steam powered isn't an excuse, sorry. I think I'm correct in saying ww1 was the first time we saw tanks (100 quid someone corrects me on this) ,that's definitely way too historically advanced to make any sense in a fantasy wargame.

    So, yeah basically a rant about gunpowder weapons/warmachines existing in a fantasy realm.

    I would love to hear others thoughts on this, especially empire players (hopefully I haven't offended you too much :saint: ).
  • To me there are many kinds of fantasy.

    I am a sucker for steel and guns versus magic and faith. Of course the Empire of Sonnie have all of them. It's awesome!

    Look to me, the way this game works, humans are going to have these low stat blocks (less resilient then dwarves, less skilled as elves, less strong than orcs) so how are they to cope?

    If the answer is technology and innovation well you've got the Empire of Sonnastahl. The other answer of heroism and valour you got the Kingdom. I, at least, love it.

    As for the tank I do think it's very silly. It appeals to a kind of fantasy that isn't really me, but that's why I don't add them to my army. I mean if I was even expanding my Empire army. Every second I spend there is NOT getting an extra orc Boar Rider.
  • I think its all about the confluence of where magic and technology meet.

    If magic is so powerful it can cause Antimatter annihilation on the battlefield (which would be “magical” to us), then magic has gone too far, similarly if technology goes from gyrocopters to Apaches, then technology has advanced too far - fireballs and muskets feel about right for a fantasy game that is playable and immersive.
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  • Overall, T9A's setting and philosophy on this works because technology isn't a game changer in this universe.

    In real life, new tech changes the way wars are fought. You started with sticks and stones. Then, someone attached a rock to a stick to make a heavy club, dealing a lot more damage than sticks! Then, someone made a shield which offered a huge advantage against clubs! Etc and so on... Basically, you had to keep up with the arms race or be left in the dust.

    T9A doesn't work like that because the superior technology of factions such as EoS, DH, ID or VS doesn't overpower more primitive technology like catapults or bows. In other words, the technology of T9A just isn't that good. Take the Steam Tank for instance. In real life you can shower a tank with a thousand arrows and nothing will happen. But in T9A, the Tank's engines are outside the hull and are vulnerable. So a dozen hits from Orcs with bows is all you need to chip away a point of HP.

    There's also magic which changes things up. The Steam Tank is a marvel of engineering, capable of great feats! But a single alchemy sorcerer can take it down without too much problem. Magic is a very real counter to technology to the point where factions like the SA that are really primitive can go toe to toe with factions like DH who have helicopters, guns, grenades and repeater cannons and still come out on top.
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  • Hombre de Mundo wrote:

    T9A doesn't work like that because the superior technology of factions such as EoS, DH, ID or VS doesn't overpower more primitive technology like catapults or bows. In other words, the technology of T9A just isn't that good. Take the Steam Tank for instance. In real life you can shower a tank with a thousand arrows and nothing will happen. But in T9A, the Tank's engines are outside the hull and are vulnerable. So a dozen hits from Orcs with bows is all you need to chip away a point of HP.
    I think the bigger factor is the variation in what kinds of individuals are doing the fighting.

    In the real world all fighting is done by humans or humans on top of another animal, usually either a horse, camel or elephant. But in 9th Age we have Orcs who are bigger and stronger than humans, and far more capable of shrugging off a bullet. Or Ogres who are absolutely massive.

    And then there are the mounts. We only have one "monster", the elephant. They are big and strong with spikes at the front, but are easy to frighten and are not agile at all. Compare that to a dragon, or a dinosaur, or a chimera, wyverns, manticores... generally the war-beasts are much better than elephants. So gunpowder does not give a civilisation an automatic edge. You can shoot arquebus' at a dragon all you want, but it's very fast, very tough, and has a hide of thick scales to protect itself. That is not a massive edge over a bow in that situation.

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  • spicybarbecue wrote:

    Looking at the armies that have these, I am willing to give the dwarven armies a pass as, at least they feel like a fantasy army. All you would need to do is take out the gunpowder weapons and cannons and replace them with something else.
    So if gunpowder is okay on dwarves, then even simple trade between humans and dwarves (like selling gunpowder for gold or food) automatically validate gunpowder weapons and cannons for human.
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  • spicybarbecue wrote:

    Empire of something or other ...I mean this entire army feels like it is way too historically advanced to exist in a fantasy wargame
    Don't tell him about the ID train :GobboParanoia: . Nor about all our darkstone technologies :GobboYes:


    Seriously, fantasy doesn't set in stone any historical timeline. And different T9A factions draw inspirations from different historical period with cultures/technologies that didn't coexisted in the real world. To me that's one of the best part of this "fantasy"
  • I'm not a big fan of Renaissance level technology in my fantasy, whether that be war games or tabletop role-playing games. It never quite sits right but the term is fantasy so I can live with it. For the Empire, I just imagine that they traded with their dwarf allies to get the basic technology where as Equitaine sees it as dishonourable and remains fully in the medieval.
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  • Who designed the first Tank? Who was the first thinking about helicopters and even parachutes?

    Right! Leonardo da Vinci!

    He also designed weird catapults etc.. And his life suits to the epoche-design of EoS! Sword and Sorcery is indeed dominated by hand2hand combat.

    But early black poweder weapons and Skaven Warp-Canons don't destroy Fantasy. Fantasy has an ancient look. That's all!
  • I guess everyone has their line in the sand.

    For me it was those GW rat ogre monstrosities (and that is a disparaging comment on the models aswell) with super powerful gatling guns on their arm stumps. Aside from the obvious “pay to win” cynical lets make these dudes awesome to sell loads element, it was just too hi tech.
    Member of North Herts Wargamers

    “As a Rocks player, I find Scissors to be nicely balanced but Paper is overpowered...”
  • spicybarbecue wrote:

    Fantasy....let that thought mull around for a second...

    Ok, what came to your mind..probably, elves, orcs, dragons etc (TBH, probably stuff out of lord of the rings)

    What's the last, or near last thing that comes to mind..that's right black powder weapons (you were wondering where this thread was going weren't you)

    Now my argument is that blackpowder/gunpowder weapons are way too historically advanced to exist in a game of fantasy war games, it could even be argued that even crossbow are pushing it, but certainly things like blundrrbusses, handguns, cannons and pistols feel out of place.

    Looking at the armies that have these, I am willing to give the dwarven armies a pass as, at least they feel like a fantasy army. All you would need to do is take out the gunpowder weapons and cannons and replace them with something else.

    This leads us to our biggest culprit...Empire of something or other ...I mean this entire army feels like it is way too historically advanced to exist in a fantasy wargame, it feels more like the ppl that play that army would be better suited playing historical reenactment wargames. I mean c'mon the army has a freaking TANK, being steam powered isn't an excuse, sorry. I think I'm correct in saying ww1 was the first time we saw tanks (100 quid someone corrects me on this) ,that's definitely way too historically advanced to make any sense in a fantasy wargame.

    So, yeah basically a rant about gunpowder weapons/warmachines existing in a fantasy realm.

    I would love to hear others thoughts on this, especially empire players (hopefully I haven't offended you too much :saint: ).
    Black Powder is made from Saltpeter. And Saltpeter is made from corpses.... basically, black powder is found in any government that goes to war a lot and therefore has an excess of human corpses all at the same time.

    The Chinese had black powder weapons as early as 904 ad.

    I always picture the EoS as the Chinese.
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  • Chronocide wrote:

    that would be the British. And it's called that because, due to secrecy, they told their crafters that what was being built was a "tank."
    That's if you're referring to modern tanks. The Australian Lancelot de Mole offered a design to the British authorities in the early XIX century, but da Vinci already design a fighting vehicle which looked very very much like a tank.

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  • Arturiki wrote:

    Chronocide wrote:

    that would be the British. And it's called that because, due to secrecy, they told their crafters that what was being built was a "tank."
    That's if you're referring to modern tanks. The Australian Lancelot de Mole offered a design to the British authorities in the early XIX century, but da Vinci already design a fighting vehicle which looked very very much like a tank.
    lots of history has similar concepts. And biology for that matter.

    But the above is the origin of things called "tanks"
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  • spicybarbecue wrote:

    Fantasy....let that thought mull around for a second...

    Ok, what came to your mind..probably, elves, orcs, dragons etc (TBH, probably stuff out of lord of the rings)
    World of Darkness.
    World of Darkness came to mind.
    A world of vampires, werewolves, mages, changelings, and random dudes with a GShG-7.62 mounted on the back of his pickup truck to defend himself against the aforementioned vampires and werewolves.

    Because fantasy isn't limited to the tropey version of Medieval Europe that never actually existed, and anyone who tries to limit it to that is an unimaginative hack fraud who hates fun.

    Heck. Spelljammer, Starfinder, John Carter of mars, a lot of fantasy is able to include space travel without it being a problem.

    Firearms, a simple "make boom to push rock" tech, is nothing that impressive compared to what the wizards have to concoct for their spells to work, so why would it be out of the question?