Infernal Dwarf First Update Feedback Thread

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  • Are anyone else having issues fitting Dwarfs into their list?

    I have a Dwarf general that is the caster and core is Dwarfs because I dont play a BSB. From special I am sometimes managing to fit in some Immortals or some Disciples - but largely its just better to load up on the more special and rare stuff.
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably caracal morale.

    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.

    With plague at the pinecone throne - what else can one do but to roll dice and women around?
  • Herminard wrote:

    Are anyone else having issues fitting Dwarfs into their list?

    I have a Dwarf general that is the caster and core is Dwarfs because I dont play a BSB. From special I am sometimes managing to fit in some Immortals or some Disciples - but largely its just better to load up on the more special and rare stuff.
    Hey !

    Actually, I must say that I am running close to 100 dwarves (sometimes seconded by 20 slaves) and have pretty decent results so far.

    Disciples are really good investment, (they count for 40 of these 100 bearded fellows in my list).

    But indeed, immortals are a bit of challenging topic at the moment. But the team is looking at them right now, so it shouldn't remain an issue for long :)
    ETC Belgium ID Player Novi Sad 2019

    My journey with ID ==> Tales of an infernal general :ID:
  • strauss wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    Are anyone else having issues fitting Dwarfs into their list?

    I have a Dwarf general that is the caster and core is Dwarfs because I dont play a BSB. From special I am sometimes managing to fit in some Immortals or some Disciples - but largely its just better to load up on the more special and rare stuff.
    Hey !
    Actually, I must say that I am running close to 100 dwarves (sometimes seconded by 20 slaves) and have pretty decent results so far.

    Disciples are really good investment, (they count for 40 of these 100 bearded fellows in my list).

    But indeed, immortals are a bit of challenging topic at the moment. But the team is looking at them right now, so it shouldn't remain an issue for long :)

    I did run 15+15 Immortals and 15+15 Disciples this week and found them both wishing that my army had brought more heavy arms fire for them to protect rather than taking the fight to the enemy.

    How much ranged firepower is there in your 100 Dwarfs list? Token? Medium? Heavy?
    I can see the Lugars doing progressively better with more firepower - so that the enemy is forced to face them in chokepoints of your chosing and that small arms fire and magic missiles thrown at them are going to cause your enemy to lose the standoff.

    I dont mind if ID are capable of doing this play efficiently and consistently - but it is of absolutely no interest to me personally as a fun and meaningful game of armies clashing in epic battle.

    Please do not take my questions as a tear of your work - I am asking this because I think it would be nice to play Infernal Dwarfs with emphasis with actual Dwarfs that do pursue the opportunity of squaring off against their foes in the fields of battle - fighting with pride - 5 man wide.
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably caracal morale.

    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.

    With plague at the pinecone throne - what else can one do but to roll dice and women around?
  • Kriegschmidt wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    ...
    I am asking this because I think it would be nice to play Infernal Dwarfs with emphasis with actual Dwarfs that do pursue the opportunity of squaring off against their foes in the fields of battle - fighting with pride - 5 man wide.

    I see that as what DH are for.

    Then why not merge ID and BH and get rid of the Dwarf entries?
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably caracal morale.

    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.

    With plague at the pinecone throne - what else can one do but to roll dice and women around?
  • I like Peacemankes thought exercise on looking at redundant units. Could leave room for new units if you combine things. Though I do think it as an exercise and am not seeing it really play out with the ID core at this time.


    DanT wrote:

    Fnarrr wrote:

    If you overdrive one ammunition type to be real impactful, it can count towards fires of industry.
    Clever :)
    Double thumbs up for this idea!

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Peacemaker wrote:

    So I've been thinking about the Citadel Guard and the Infernal Warriors due the reasons listed in the DE forum about merging units.

    What were the reasons again for not merging the CG and IW? or splitting them into one melee unit and 1 ranged unit?

    Edit: Not ruffling feathers here. Just being objective.
    We discussed both possibilities.

    ID didn't have that much complexity in slim, so there wasn't a huge amount of pressure to combine them into one unit. Plus that would leave ID with only one actual Dwarf unit in core.

    Now let us consider splitting them into ranged and melee. First off, I want to note I think it could work, BUT:

    - If the melee unit is base S4 AP1, they're still pretty medium with Hand Weapons and Shields, but hit S6 AP3 with Great Weapons, which the team decided we didn't want to do.

    - If the ranged unit is base S3 AP0, they can't really do melee and shooting. I mean, you could maybe go with something like the slim blunderbusses with Great Weapons AND shooting weapons, but that's leaning pretty heavily on Great Weapons and doesn't really work well with the kinda-bayonet-axe concept we have going for the Flintlocks.

    - Also, "Dedicated shooting unit" is a bit harder to make work when you have to waddle right up to the enemy to get a shot off in the first place, so ID were supposed to be a little more general purpose than that.

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    SlaveToThePyre wrote:

    Then, you give the proper rule to the proper unit. As an alternative, write down a new weapon: don't know, maybe something like "two-handed peak" that gives FiER and +1 st AP2. And please, PLEASE, don't tell me that you can't because of excessive complexity, the book is very complex for many other aspects that could be simplified (for example, many rules have two effects...). Fluff is a serious thing.

    That's all I have to suggest.

    @Tyranno @WhammeWhamme
    - The full book (art and background and all) is very close - we finished the actual writing about the time the slim-LAB came out, it's just been some hold-ups in Art, unfortunately, that have delayed it this long - but we've got some of our top talent back and available again (damn 2020) and it's really really close. (This will of course not be Gold, as Gold will require some iterating on the mechanics yet).

    - The FiER was supposed to have a background explanation attached. I mean this quite literally; we implemented that specific change because it was the most background-friendly option we came up with that fit our mechanical constraints. It should have been a name upgrade (like Litigators) - but the layout team didn't get told that. Oops.

    =/

    (It's why it's tied specifically to the Great Weapon; it would be BG inappropriate for 'normal' Infernal Warriors to have a special rule that Citadel Guard don't get)

    (We are human, we derp from time to time. This one is my fault, I should have caught it.)


    That all makes sense, I think It does seem more like their should be a named weapon in the armory with FiER +2 Str and +2 AP. Then you could even play with the AP if their are balance issues.

    Definitely don't want/need S6 core. Having the Citadel Guard Loose FiER really hurt their spear prospects. Having them S4 and fight in 4 ranks is something that competes better with the IW with Great weapons. Then you can just balance the points between those choices

    Personally i would also like to see citadel guard come with either Spears + Pistols, or Flintlocks. Is anyone taking them just with Pistols? Background wise having either a flintlock or spear tracks better in my mind with what a "Guard" would do.
    .
    Keeper of the Zoo
    Images of Ma Stuff
    My Warriors of Ind/Sagarikadesha Painting blog

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  • Kriegschmidt wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    Then why not merge ID and BH and get rid of the Dwarf entries?
    Because... that would be silly. And quite a long way from what you described.

    Since whennn I ask you. Sinceee whennnn - were sillyness a reason for T9A to not flail their hammer of improvement with fine pescision.

    Also - I am a heretic. If you find reason with me then I have ill news for you.
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably caracal morale.

    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.

    With plague at the pinecone throne - what else can one do but to roll dice and women around?
  • Herminard wrote:

    strauss wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    Are anyone else having issues fitting Dwarfs into their list?

    I have a Dwarf general that is the caster and core is Dwarfs because I dont play a BSB. From special I am sometimes managing to fit in some Immortals or some Disciples - but largely its just better to load up on the more special and rare stuff.
    Hey !Actually, I must say that I am running close to 100 dwarves (sometimes seconded by 20 slaves) and have pretty decent results so far.

    Disciples are really good investment, (they count for 40 of these 100 bearded fellows in my list).

    But indeed, immortals are a bit of challenging topic at the moment. But the team is looking at them right now, so it shouldn't remain an issue for long :)
    I did run 15+15 Immortals and 15+15 Disciples this week and found them both wishing that my army had brought more heavy arms fire for them to protect rather than taking the fight to the enemy.

    How much ranged firepower is there in your 100 Dwarfs list? Token? Medium? Heavy?
    I can see the Lugars doing progressively better with more firepower - so that the enemy is forced to face them in chokepoints of your chosing and that small arms fire and magic missiles thrown at them are going to cause your enemy to lose the standoff.

    I dont mind if ID are capable of doing this play efficiently and consistently - but it is of absolutely no interest to me personally as a fun and meaningful game of armies clashing in epic battle.

    Please do not take my questions as a tear of your work - I am asking this because I think it would be nice to play Infernal Dwarfs with emphasis with actual Dwarfs that do pursue the opportunity of squaring off against their foes in the fields of battle - fighting with pride - 5 man wide.

    Just a note: Strauss is awesome, but he's also fairly new, so blame for the current state of the ID LAB does not go on him. :)


    A general note on Infernal Dwarves: in-universe, the Infernal Dwarves essentially always supplement their forces with non-Dwarves (including machinery) because they have to. The Dwarves shouldn't be useless, but an ID battle line should be easily distinguished (visually) from a DH battle line by the presence of non-dwarves.

    The ID big things don't need to be especially good to be close to auto-pick as a supplement; a list gains a lot from having some faster moving threats. Most DH combat lists I've seen run either Grudgebusters or Miners, and to me the reason why seems obvious: they do different things from infantry.

    ID aren't allowed Miners, so it has to be Grudgebuster variants.

    Disciples (currently) work fairly well in such a list (in my opinion) as they offer some things neither Gigantic models nor normal dwarf infantry do, and bump the percentages in infantry up a fair bit. I think you could easily have 50% in dwarf infantry in such a list and not regret it - they only need so many Distraction Carnifexes.

    If you want a list with a large number of R&F units, there was also a successful list that ran a large number of Vassal Levy Spearmen. (With an effective 18" bubble, they go wide pretty well).


    These are all fluffy approaches to Infernal Dwarves. "Just infantry Dwarves, no big guns, no minions, no engines" is not fluffy. That's a Dwarven Holds army. Infernal Dwarves go to war with a mixed force. That's who they are, it's what they've built their tactical and strategic doctrines around.


    And CG Spearmen and Disciples are both (IMO) usually best when 5 wide.

    Background Team

  • Herminard wrote:

    I did run 15+15 Immortals and 15+15 Disciples this week and found them both wishing that my army had brought more heavy arms fire for them to protect rather than taking the fight to the enemy.

    How much ranged firepower is there in your 100 Dwarfs list? Token? Medium? Heavy?

    Here is my list :




    As you can see, the shooty-ness is relatively low. It's a fairly flexible list and I like to play it very aggressively, which is, so far, a pretty good way to use it. I have in total 25 shots (most often then not, they'll be sitting on the second rank in my deployment, and their shooting capacity is relatively incidental). The two gunnery teams are much more a "psychological threat" than a real firepower, as they will often miss their targets and/or do relatively low count of wounds.

    On the magic side, not so RPS, but I rather fancy CC close combat support (and will prolly drop the essence - no real need of pyromancy).

    I do have two big pieces, but they support my battleline, more than the opposite.

    Also, sometimes, few pictures say way more than words :

    Display Spoiler


    ">

    ">

    ">




    I does feel like a pretty infantry oriented list on the table tho ? And it also need to spread wide, due to the footprint of all these packs. I like this feel when I drop my army on the table - it's glorious (not so much when they start to run cowardly after T3 - but that's another story)!

    As per replication of small blocks, I ain't surprised by the lack of success, as per design, ID are expected to work better in blocks. I wouldn't be surprised to see that - vigorously - encouraged with the next patch.


    I can see the Lugars doing progressively better with more firepower - so that the enemy is forced to face them in chokepoints of your chosing and that small arms fire and magic missiles thrown at them are going to cause your enemy to lose the standoff.

    Agreed, but that's true for most infantry blocks in this game ?


    I dont mind if ID are capable of doing this play efficiently and consistently - but it is of absolutely no interest to me personally as a fun and meaningful game of armies clashing in epic battle.

    Again, agreed ! But that's also quite a matter of taste. I run my dwarves very agressively, often in CC as T2 (either charging or being charged) and ending my battle with bloodbath from both side. This is possible with ID and sometimes even efficient (as said, got nice results at two events (got second and 1st place (at VP - damn painting score...) one 26-ish, the other 50-ish lastly).

    Shooty Pew-pew-pew ID is a playstyle that thend to dominate currently - but it isn't the only one possible nor the one we would prefer. So please be sure that this is worked out.



    Please do not take my questions as a tear of your work - I am asking this because I think it would be nice to play Infernal Dwarfs with emphasis with actual Dwarfs that do pursue the opportunity of squaring off against their foes in the fields of battle - fighting with pride - 5 man wide.

    Agreed, for the third time - blocky playstyle is possible - but with some support :) As @WhammeWhamme[/url] said, per definition ID are a mixed-arm army. Full infantry is more for DH (and sadly, this is often far from being the 1st playstyle on their side).


    ETC Belgium ID Player Novi Sad 2019

    My journey with ID ==> Tales of an infernal general :ID:
  • TheChange wrote:

    @WhammeWhamme why do you think that CG Spearmen and Disciples are usually best when 5 wide?
    I honestly don’t think so. Going wider means more attacks and it’s usually better from my point of view.

    Disciples, because you don't want them taking charges on the chin and you do want them maneuvering and they're useful against small base enemies more than big blocky ones (note I'm specifically thinking of Disciples with Great Weapons here) as they're relatively elite and expensive which makes me at least lean towards smaller supporting units than enormous bricks of special infantry.

    Spearmen... ehn. You can get more attacks, sure, but only vs. enemies that are wide enough to pile them in and they're tanky even more than they're hitty... and wide, you start losing those extra attacks pretty quick, plus it opens them up to getting hit more in return. I'd rather default to deep and try for combo-charges if the fight is tough enough they'll need more oomph.

    Background Team

  • In order:

    Fair points @WhammeWhamme.

    Concepts of blame of the individual in T9A are long since invalid to me. I will try use Shackled Slaves and Vassals in my battle line - but so far they dont earn their spot by power nor trait.

    Who are the ID Vassals? Rats? Humans? Greenskins?

    Are the members of the Taur family cousins of the Dwarfs? Or minions?

    Are the Disciples of Lugar regular dwarfs at birth? Or born with an affinity for flame?


    @strauss

    Do you not have any concern of how difficult it is to be a hermit heretic if people like you are going to agree trice with my cheap rethorics??

    The breaches of your fair counterfute ammended by your QED and your @Omarcomin style paintscheme.
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably caracal morale.

    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.

    With plague at the pinecone throne - what else can one do but to roll dice and women around?
  • Herminard wrote:

    In order:

    Fair points @WhammeWhamme.

    Concepts of blame of the individual in T9A are long since invalid to me. I will try use Shackled Slaves and Vassals in my battle line - but so far they dont earn their spot by power nor trait.

    Who are the ID Vassals? Rats? Humans? Greenskins?

    Are the members of the Taur family cousins of the Dwarfs? Or minions?

    Are the Disciples of Lugar regular dwarfs at birth? Or born with an affinity for flame?


    @strauss

    Do you not have any concern of how difficult it is to be a hermit heretic if people like you are going to agree trice with my cheap rethorics??

    The breaches of your fair counterfute ammended by your QED and your @Omarcomin style paintscheme.

    Canon that the LAB will make clear oh-so-very-soon-damn-it-come-out-already:

    - ID Vassals: The ID aren't picky. Most are human or "greenskins", but there's options (f'rex, I used Beast Herds type minis when testing ID on UB because that's completely plausible and I felt like it :) ). That's why it's "Vassal Levy" and "Shackled Slaves" - they're generic names for generic troops. :)

    - Taurukhs are born Dwarves and are transformed as adults.

    - Disciples of Lugar are born Dwarves and make a pact (of fire) for power as adults.

    Background Team

  • And Kadims are minions? Or deity?
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably caracal morale.

    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.

    With plague at the pinecone throne - what else can one do but to roll dice and women around?
  • Herminard wrote:

    And Kadims are minions? Or deity?

    It's Complicated!


    Like, that's a legitimate in-universe question. Kadims get treated like indentured servants, but they're also literally the servants of the ID gods and their bindings involve sacred mysteries.

    I think, if you asked a normal (apart from being fairly chatty and open) Infernal Dwarf, they would say "minion" and then add "which is not to say you are better than they are, human. Quite the converse.".

    Background Team

  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    And Kadims are minions? Or deity?
    It's Complicated!


    Like, that's a legitimate in-universe question. Kadims get treated like indentured servants, but they're also literally the servants of the ID gods and their bindings involve sacred mysteries.

    I think, if you asked a normal (apart from being fairly chatty and open) Infernal Dwarf, they would say "minion" and then add "which is not to say you are better than they are, human. Quite the converse.".

    Humle minions that we just by tradition sacrifice our firstborn for?
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably caracal morale.

    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.

    With plague at the pinecone throne - what else can one do but to roll dice and women around?
  • Herminard wrote:

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    And Kadims are minions? Or deity?
    It's Complicated!

    Like, that's a legitimate in-universe question. Kadims get treated like indentured servants, but they're also literally the servants of the ID gods and their bindings involve sacred mysteries.

    I think, if you asked a normal (apart from being fairly chatty and open) Infernal Dwarf, they would say "minion" and then add "which is not to say you are better than they are, human. Quite the converse.".
    Humle minions that we just by tradition sacrifice our firstborn for?

    Nah, from a practical perspective they're pretty much just minions. ID generally don't sacrifice their firstborn, they sacrifice other people's firstborns (and secondborns and subsequent, they're not picky).

    Background Team