Pinned Infernal Dwarf First Update Feedback Thread

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    • Infernal Dwarf First Update Feedback Thread

      The first update of the new Infernal Dwarf army book is out!

      the-ninth-age.com/community/fi…rmybook-infernal-dwarves/

      So please give your feedback for the changes (and the book in general) here.


      Please note that this is supposed to be for feedback from playing the Infernal Dwarf book, not against it. If you wish to give feedback playing against the book, please go to your specific army sub-forum. If there is no thread to give feedback in, please let your relevant ACS or me know, and one will be created for you.


      A summery of the (non-points) changes will be given soon.

      Lord of the Hobby

      The Great Horde of Chaos <-My hobby blog Tyranno's Ride into the Steppes <-My Makhar hobby/army-list blog
    • So first opinion in a quick reading.

      They remove rules and increase prise.

      Some change are legit. 360° of tower, clipped wing on roquet, and some change on magic item and adjustment of points

      BUT

      Why :
      • "If they haven’t performed a March Move during the Player Turnn add rules on vassal" ?
      • Immortal lose a lot of special rules and increase cost ...
      • Kadim incarnate decrease in point, but always Pa1
      • Hereditary spell is really bad, and does not reflect the spirit of the army
      • Why add supernatural on bull ?
      • Citadel guard less rules increase cost ...
      • 180 vassal cavalry : probably the most expensive chaff


      An update which made the strong elements of the army weaker but which did not strengthen the weaker elements

      we need time to test ...
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    • Here is a short summery of the design changes and the reasons for them:


      Incendiary Tokens:
      Changed to incentivise combat.


      Taurukh Ritual 0-2 limit:
      Infernal Dwarves could produce a higher-than-intended number of cowboys, this has been curbed.


      Oil Skins cannot be used when marching:
      Vassal Cavalry were proving to be a little too effective at spreading counters around. This change hopefully will produce more active decision-making in the ID player.


      Infernal Armour Aegis changes:
      Rule was overly complex, and not worth the small benefit it gave.


      Shooting limits:
      Concerns had been raised that Infernal Dwarves could produce too much shooting, and combat was not incentivised enough.


      Rocket Battery lost clipped wings:
      Model was far too strong against flying units.


      Infernal Weapon:
      Cleaned up and shortened.


      Hereditary Spell:
      This combined with the shooting created too much firepower for the army. A close-combat aiding ability was seen as a better long-term idea.


      Mask of Ages cannot be used on Gigantic:
      Originally wasn't intended to work on Gigantic.


      Lugar's Dice:
      Concerns raised over re-rolling the Crush Attack on the Bastion.


      Taurukh Commissioner & Anointed abilities removed for Bodyguard:
      Ability was too complex and only worked when expensive models died. New ability should help Anointed stick around against higher static-combat-resolution units, making them better anti-infantry.


      Vassal Conjuror cannot ride a steed unless it is an adept:
      See Taurukh Ritual.


      Bull & Great Bull of Shamut gain Fearless and Supernal:
      Background was not adequately reflected in the models abilities.


      Infernal Bastion gains Fire of Industry(1), lost 360 degree line of sight and ignore distracting caused by walls:
      Combination of too complex, too much shooting power in a single list, and hard to counter by high movement armies.


      Citadel Guard no longer gain FieR:
      Unit was too punishing to charge, lead to standoffs.


      Infernal Warriors gain FieR when wielding great weapons:
      Unit lost considerable strength since the previous book, was seen to need a boost when used in larger units.


      Vassal Levies can take bow on top of other weapon choices:
      Allow great freedom with customisation.


      Vassal Chieftain lost 1 agility:
      Brings the model in line with the rest of the unit, so it does not create additional counters on its own.


      Immortals lost Parry, and ability was changed so S5 or higher get -1 to wound:
      Unit was perceived by some not to be fun to play against.


      Kadim Incarnates lost Magma Tunnelling for Ghost Step:
      Too many non-rulebook special rules present in ID book.


      Gunnery Team Cluster Munitions -1S, march lowered to 6 and movement restrictions removed:
      Streamlining for the Cluster Munitions (smaller weapon has smaller shrapnel), and cutting down on rules bloat.


      Infernal Engine gains Def3 and loses Parry. Also gains Fires of Industry 2 on the Rock Crusher:
      Streamlining rules into statlines. Also Rock Crushers plus war machines was seen as oppressive.


      Giant shield swapped Hard Cover for Soft Cover, and swaps Distracting for Parry:
      Shield was seen as too good compared to other options, and Parry brings it into line with other shields while also incentivising combat.

      Lord of the Hobby

      The Great Horde of Chaos <-My hobby blog Tyranno's Ride into the Steppes <-My Makhar hobby/army-list blog
    • Wally wrote:

      So first opinion in a quick reading.

      They remove rules and increase prise.

      Some change are legit. 360° of tower, clipped wing on roquet, and some change on magic item and adjustment of points

      BUT

      Why :
      • "If they haven’t performed a March Move during the Player Turnn add rules on vassal" ?
      • Immortal lose a lot of special rules and increase cost ...
      • Kadim incarnate decrease in point, but always Pa1
      • Hereditary spell is really bad, and does not reflect the spirit of the army
      • Why add supernatural on bull ?
      • Citadel guard less rules increase cost ...
      • 180 vassal cavalry : probably the most expensive chaff


      An update which made the strong elements of the army weaker but which did not strengthen the weaker elements

      we need time to test ...

      - The March Move proviso only affects Vassal Cavalry; people had issues with 18" march + 18" gooapult.

      - People demanded nerfs on Immortals.

      - Incarnates are weaker with Ghost Step (can be chaffed), so cheaper. (Why Ghost Step? People complained about too many special rules)

      - The new H-spell was designed to help with melee and interact with Incendiary, as bluntly, ID already has a lot of blasting spells and the old one was Wrath of God but worse for the game (because it hosed bigger ranked units rather than war machines or single models).

      We looked at a lot of alternatives. There was also a thread seeking suggestions in the forum that nobody replied to that I-for-one read.

      - Change to the Great Bull/Bull of Shamut is background driven. It's a Supernal being. It should have been Supernal on release but well... basically, it slipped through the cracks. (I didn't personally have a problem with it as-was on a BG-level, and the rest of the BGT was less hands-on involved but did have a problem with it, so the person who noticed didn't care and the people who cared didn't notice).

      - People demanded nerfs on Citadel Guard.

      - People demanded nerfs on Vassal Cavalry.

      Background Team

    • Thanks for the update. Quick impressions.

      • Oil Skins not being able to be performed if marched feels like not needed.
      • Hereditary. Feels weak. I don't really like it.
      • Mask getting limited to non Gigantic is cool. The price hike, not so sure it was needed.
      • Commissioner still looks like has no place in the book.
      • Core: Nice changes in IW and CG. Levies being cheaper than Goblins, I don't really know.
      • Immortals took a bit hit, I think they are too expensive currently. Surprised they took such a big nerf instead of Lugars.
      • Incarnates and Annointed getting closer to a better price.
      • Thanks for removing parry on Engine.
      • Thanks for removing 360 LoS on Bastion.
      • Tower Shield Giant getting into a more acceptable place.


      Patch looks like an immense step into the right direction. Plenty of changes that were common sense to occur. Still some nerfs feel like too much (oil skins and Mask price mainly), and personally think that Incarnates need something else to be good. About the Commissioner, I don't really know how to make him a desirable entry.

      Will come back when I've played another 15-20 games with the army.
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    • As expected, big nerf. As deserved ? I doubt it. It makes me really sad to see that few peeps with too much free time are able to achieve.

      Again, all my respect to the team working on the book and update. Being a bit salty does not prevent me to thank you for your time and efforts !

      Few remarks that I’ll elaborate later on, but I am really wondering what could be achieved with the kadim incarnates and taurukh anointed. They got cheaper but I still don’t see how they can be valuable. I would have expected something to buff them a bit (not sure that ghost step for kadim and body guard for taurukhs will do the trick).
    • Thank you for the feed back.

      But some choices are very hard.

      Vassal cavalry cost more but lose March and shot with oil and init 4... (I understand for the march and shoot, but I'm sad for initiative and the new point).

      Rock crush count as 2 fires of industry, lose pary and see his points increases too.

      Lose the possibility to have PW and Spear on Vassal levies.

      Infernal bastion who lose is core rules (360°) and cost 1 fire industry for 15pts less.

      New hereditary speel who is a light version of Altered Sigh... I understand that the first hereditary can be too much in a gunline army, but Altered Sight is underused.

      But thank you for this V2, we will try our best to find nice list to play, while waiting for the V3 ;)
    • Maybe it's my low level, but for me puting tokens to enemy units with vassal cavaly's shooting against decent players was challenging and of course conditioning. Now, it seems almost impossible from shooting to me. Is it only me? Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

      For the incarnates, I expected fly instead of ghost step. This is a huge nerf because now they don't ignore units while charging, right? In my opinion, they were slightly expensive in V1 and this decrease is not enough considering they lost a crucial rule. But this is a matter of time, I guess. I like the simplification, though, thanks for that!

      Hereditary seems way too weak to me.

      Immortals are very bad to me right now. For me they were in the perfect spot in terms of price in the previous versions. Disciples feel way more powerful in my opinion.

      Also, I don't agree with the price increase of the great bull+overlord, especially now without the mask. I played The Ocho with him and I felt it helped more the opponent than me.

      For the rest, I'm grateful for the simplifications and for some things that were necessary. Very happy for the kadim chariot, the taurukh annointed and the gunnery teams! Those are very good news because they were in a very bad spot.

      Let's go for some testing!
    • Gaspaccio wrote:

      Thank you for the feed back.

      But some choices are very hard.

      Vassal cavalry cost more but lose March and shot with oil and init 4... (I understand for the march and shoot, but I'm sad for initiative and the new point).

      Rock crush count as 2 fires of industry, lose pary and see his points increases too.

      Lose the possibility to have PW and Spear on Vassal levies.

      Infernal bastion who lose is core rules (360°) and cost 1 fire industry for 15pts less.

      New hereditary speel who is a light version of Altered Sigh... I understand that the first hereditary can be too much in a gunline army, but Altered Sight is underused.

      But thank you for this V2, we will try our best to find nice list to play, while waiting for the V3 ;)

      - The -1 Agility was because of the Vassal Chieftain is available for both units, and if he's 1 Agility higher than his unit, you can add two incendiary counters to one unit.

      - Rock Crusher was simplified. If it's bad now, well, darn.

      - PW and Spear Vassal Levies was an oversight, not intended.

      - 360 LOS was not the intended core point of the Bastion.

      - H Spell is Altered Sight, except it boosts to be -2/-2 or -3/-3 if you're playing with Incendiary. That's not a small difference. -3/-3 is very likely to be both -1 to hit and +1 to hit.

      Background Team

    • Thank you all for the work put into this. It definitely seems to be easier to read, and everything should still play just fine.

      My only complaint is the kadim incarnates losing magma tunnelling and gaining ghost step. Was magma tunnelling really so complex that it had to go? It really made the flavor of the unit stand out.

      If it doesn't come back, fine, it is not the end of the world. But I did like the flavor of it, and have always felt that the rules need to be demonstrative of the flavor (which is why flying never made sense before).


      But really, that is my only complaint. Everything else looks good, and I am looking forward to reading people's thoughts after playing with the new book. Thank you again!
    • Still hate that the Overlord gets a free weapon enchantment of choice before the game starts, but after army lists are shared. I also dislike that the character essentially pays nothing for that ability (really underpriced character). And why is it one free weapon enchantment AND 175pts of special items? Do they really need that many pts of special gear? Or rather, do you really want that many special rules on a single character?

      I like that the new hereditary spell isn't the old hereditary spell...though the new one is lackluster (Plus, why does a Off/Def debuff need so much range?).

      Infernal Armour is still probably OP. It's just that flaming attacks are really common. Normally this sort of thing is balanced by making fortitude saves autofail, but infernal armour doesn't do that for some reason.

      Seat of Authority's Vassal Governor seems really complex in it's wording.

      The updated Infernal Bastion is much more reasonable. Wallbreaker is really odd, though, seems like the bastion should a unit upgrade option, rather than a unit of it's own, if it is required to deploy in and not leave a given unit.

      Still think there's something wrong with putting divine attacks and flaming attacks together on any model. Seems wrong for the T9A ruleset.

      Why do infernal Warriors fight in an extra rank with great weapons? This stacks with the extra rank from a Line formation, after all.

      Still no Rock Crusher Steel Juggernaut option.
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    • WhammeWhamme wrote:


      - The -1 Agility was because of the Vassal Chieftain is available for both units, and if he's 1 Agility higher than his unit, you can add two incendiary counters to one unit.

      - Rock Crusher was simplified. If it's bad now, well, darn.

      - PW and Spear Vassal Levies was an oversight, not intended.

      - 360 LOS was not the intended core point of the Bastion.

      - H Spell is Altered Sight, except it boosts to be -2/-2 or -3/-3 if you're playing with Incendiary. That's not a small difference. -3/-3 is very likely to be both -1 to hit and +1 to hit.
      The -1 agility is a correct choice, I didn't understand why my hobgoblins were as fast as elves charging, but the March and Shoot penalty seems ridiculous also considering the point increase.
      PW and Spear is obviously correct you can only choose one of the two.
      The H Spell is strong only if there are tokens and ID doesn't have many buffs or debuffs so the opponent will dispel it if there are tokens around.
      To be tested..
      BTW citadel guard will now sit on the shelf, Flintlocks increased and so did Spears both losing FIER. No reason to take them compared to Infernal Warriors with Blunderbuss or Great Weapon that are much cheaper.
    • Chronocide wrote:

      Still hate that the Overlord gets a free weapon enchantment of choice before the game starts, but after army lists are shared. I also dislike that the character essentially pays nothing for that ability (really underpriced character). And why is it one free weapon enchantment AND 175pts of special items? Do they really need that many pts of special gear? Or rather, do you really want that many special rules on a single character?

      I like that the new hereditary spell isn't the old hereditary spell...though the new one is lackluster (Plus, why does a Off/Def debuff need so much range?).

      Infernal Armour is still probably OP. It's just that flaming attacks are really common. Normally this sort of thing is balanced by making fortitude saves autofail, but infernal armour doesn't do that for some reason.

      Seat of Authority's Vassal Governor seems really complex in it's wording.

      The updated Infernal Bastion is much more reasonable. Wallbreaker is really odd, though, seems like the bastion should a unit upgrade option, rather than a unit of it's own, if it is required to deploy in and not leave a given unit.

      Still think there's something wrong with putting divine attacks and flaming attacks together on any model. Seems wrong for the T9A ruleset.

      Why do infernal Warriors fight in an extra rank with great weapons? This stacks with the extra rank from a Line formation, after all.

      Still no Rock Crusher Steel Juggernaut option.

      - Slim Overlord, Dwarf King and Greed WDG Lords have 250 point equipment allowances. The Overlord only gets 235, but can spend 60 (the most expensive enchantment he can take is 60 points) of that after the game starts.

      Compared to a Dwarf King on foot, the Overlord on foot trades Sturdy and an extra Grudge for the special weapon ability, March and Shoot, a 5+ Aegis vs. Flaming and Hatred... and Dwarf Kings on foot are pretty bad, they almost always get taken mounted.

      (I don't think it's anywhere near as good an ability as you do.)

      - There was a thread started for brainstorming a new H spell in the forums. If people had put a good idea there, I'd've suggested it.

      - I don't think you'd like the world where Infernal Armour gave a 3+ Aegis vs. Flaming, like the items that actually make you lose Fortitude.

      - Good to know Seat seems complicated. People complained a lot about complication but few people ever actually laid out what they had issues with and I never saw Seat on one of those lists.

      - Not sure y'all want Bastion counting towards core.

      - How else do you stat up holy fire?

      - IW with GW seemed weak and in need of a boost. So they got one.

      - Flavour-wise, a Rock Crusher Steel Juggernaut would be basically the same thing as a Kadim Titan.

      Background Team

    • Chronocide wrote:

      Still hate that the Overlord gets a free weapon enchantment of choice before the game starts, but after army lists are shared. I also dislike that the character essentially pays nothing for that ability (really underpriced character). And why is it one free weapon enchantment AND 175pts of special items? Do they really need that many pts of special gear? Or rather, do you really want that many special rules on a single character?

      I like that the new hereditary spell isn't the old hereditary spell...though the new one is lackluster (Plus, why does a Off/Def debuff need so much range?).

      Infernal Armour is still probably OP. It's just that flaming attacks are really common. Normally this sort of thing is balanced by making fortitude saves autofail, but infernal armour doesn't do that for some reason.

      Seat of Authority's Vassal Governor seems really complex in it's wording.

      The updated Infernal Bastion is much more reasonable. Wallbreaker is really odd, though, seems like the bastion should a unit upgrade option, rather than a unit of it's own, if it is required to deploy in and not leave a given unit.

      Still think there's something wrong with putting divine attacks and flaming attacks together on any model. Seems wrong for the T9A ruleset.

      Why do infernal Warriors fight in an extra rank with great weapons? This stacks with the extra rank from a Line formation, after all.

      Still no Rock Crusher Steel Juggernaut option.
      More nerfs to go along with the current ones ? Let’s be reasonable :)
    • Thanks for your hard work. However sincerely the new Hereditary will not be taken in any situation. I think that it need more work, it is pretty much quite disappointing as change. About our core choices it is interesting the buff on warriors while nerfing citadels. Maybe blunderbuss+GW warriors in horde formation could be pretty much strong with the bastion inside even now. Some changes are quite incisive... It was risky to change so much in one patch imho...
    • I do really want to thank the guys that worked on this first iteration of the book as i told many people it finally felt like ID had their own feel again after so long.

      That being said I was very disappointed with the heavy handedness these nerfs where dealt out with. I was excited to test out the new ID in the recent team tournament where they were in the middle of the pack for the most part, but this has taken the wind out of those sails in a big way.

      Most of my concerns have been voiced by others already.

      I cant wait for the next update because this was an unmitigated bust
    • Answers not directed at anyone in particular, just quoting for easy writing.
      I won't talk about points.

      Thanks for the update.

      Tyranno wrote:

      Here is a short summery of the design changes and the reasons for them:

      Incendiary Tokens:
      Changed to incentivise combat.

      If I understood it correctly, It seems to incentivize Alchemy and Prophet of Ashuruk more than anything else, (had to read it 3 times, seems even more complex than before, which is a weird result). More autohits... yay... Elves will be happy.

      Taurukh Ritual 0-2 limit:
      Infernal Dwarves could produce a higher-than-intended number of cowboys, this has been curbed.

      Its ok.

      Oil Skins cannot be used when marching:
      Vassal Cavalry were proving to be a little too effective at spreading counters around. This change hopefully will produce more active decision-making in the ID player.

      Seems not needed and doesnt make a lot of sense while other similar units can throw lots of shots after marching. Would have been much better doing something different for the Oil Skins like making it scale with the size of the unit so biggers units of Vassal Infantry could be more appealing while the MSU cavalry could have been made less efficient if needed at the same time.

      Infernal Armour Aegis changes:
      Rule was overly complex, and not worth the small benefit it gave.

      There was nothing complex about it, it was worth specially for bulls, so I disagree. In fact, it helped to reduce the complexity of having to add some Fireborn rule to the Bulls. Now they get nothing. No background reasoning here to have a defense against fire?

      Shooting limits:
      Concerns had been raised that Infernal Dwarves could produce too much shooting, and combat was not incentivised enough.

      A limit is a limit, keep tinkering till the correct one is found. No complaints.

      Rocket Battery lost clipped wings:
      Model was far too strong against flying units.

      Makes sense.

      Infernal Weapon:
      Cleaned up and shortened.

      Its ok.

      Hereditary Spell:
      This combined with the shooting created too much firepower for the army. A close-combat aiding ability was seen as a better long-term idea.

      Seems awful. Not only because I already could use two "minus OS/DS spells", but because the worst part of Fury of Nezibkesh was kept. I mean tying the efficiency of the spell again to vassals and making it a totally list dependant spell with more "vassal feeling" than "dwarf feeling". In fact, because of being a mix of "witchcraft and flammable", it totally feels like an Hereditary for the Vassal Conjurer, not for the Prophet. Don't misunderstand me, it can be a useful spell, but looks like a failure conceptually.

      Mask of Ages cannot be used on Gigantic:
      Originally wasn't intended to work on Gigantic.

      Sorry, not true, but ok.

      Lugar's Dice:
      Concerns raised over re-rolling the Crush Attack on the Bastion.

      Its ok.

      Taurukh Commissioner & Anointed abilities removed for Bodyguard:
      Ability was too complex and only worked when expensive models died. New ability should help Anointed stick around against higher static-combat-resolution units, making them better anti-infantry.

      Its an ok change removing the rule from character. But I think that it deserved a more aggresive redesign than this approach. Lost opportunity.

      Vassal Conjuror cannot ride a steed unless it is an adept:
      See Taurukh Ritual.

      Its ok. It should let to avoid inflating the price of the wolf for the adept because the apprentice could be too cheap as chaff.

      Bull & Great Bull of Shamut gain Fearless and Supernal:
      Background was not adequately reflected in the models abilities.

      Ehm... And Kadim Chariot? This is not a background change, its a critical change in gameplay. Slow flying models that cant flee and will crumble if losing a combat? Your general, your wizard! And still the massive siege tower can flee away. Do all this make any sense? Its a concerning precedent for future LABs too. What will happen with other supernal mounts like maybe a phoenix?

      Infernal Bastion gains Fire of Industry(1), lost 360 degree line of sight and ignore distracting caused by walls:
      Combination of too complex, too much shooting power in a single list, and hard to counter by high movement armies.

      There were many solutions to pick for nerfing Infernal Bastion, it seems that all of them were picked... Seams like an overkill to me. I don't see reason to play it anymore, I hope to be wrong.

      Citadel Guard no longer gain FieR:
      Unit was too punishing to charge, lead to standoffs.

      Well, ok. I would have "played" with the weapon options instead, this doesn't help the inner balance of equipment at all.

      Infernal Warriors gain FieR when wielding great weapons:
      Unit lost considerable strength since the previous book, was seen to need a boost when used in larger units.

      A FieR that is lost when the new recruits become veterans? Would have had more sense as a special type of Great Weapon or in other way than this. It breaks coherence, specially if adding it now that FiER was removed from Citadel Guard.

      Vassal Levies can take bow on top of other weapon choices:
      Allow great freedom with customisation.

      As it should be.

      Vassal Chieftain lost 1 agility:
      Brings the model in line with the rest of the unit, so it does not create additional counters on its own.

      Well, it works if unnecessarily reducing the Agi of the Vassal Cavalry unit. Still the Steed's profile makes no sense.

      Immortals lost Parry, and ability was changed so S5 or higher get -1 to wound:
      Unit was perceived by some not to be fun to play against.

      Really overdid here while Lugars were already a superior choice. (And Lugars just need -1Att plus Battle Focus added, so they just don't retain so much power in the first rank and removing models from the back ranks may hurt their total damage output more).

      Kadim Incarnates lost Magma Tunnelling for Ghost Step:
      Too many non-rulebook special rules present in ID book.

      It seems that this was done more with the intention of reducing complexity than nerfing, but Kadim unit was not the best place for that. Shouldn't this be added for coherence to Kadim Titan too? Or are Kadim Incarnates less "material" than Titan? I thought that they were essentially the same.
      It also happens that when listbuilding the key point for picking Incarnates or Titan is Fly or semi-fly, now picking between a block of Incarnates or Titan is mostly a matter of which is more point efficient and drop the other option from lists.


      Gunnery Team Cluster Munitions -1S, march lowered to 6 and movement restrictions removed:
      Streamlining for the Cluster Munitions (smaller weapon has smaller shrapnel), and cutting down on rules bloat.

      Its ok.

      Infernal Engine gains Def3 and loses Parry. Also gains Fires of Industry 2 on the Rock Crusher:
      Streamlining rules into statlines. Also Rock Crushers plus war machines was seen as oppressive.

      No idea why a melee chariot should limit the shooting availability for the army. Its a various years step back from the slimbook.
      Seems like a mistake and a bad precedent (units that don't shoot or improve shooting limiting the shooting of the army...WTF).


      Giant shield swapped Hard Cover for Soft Cover, and swaps Distracting for Parry:
      Shield was seen as too good compared to other options, and Parry brings it into line with other shields while also incentivising combat.

      Could be ok.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Gomio ().

    • When the new book came out it made a small dent on my fave list, of CC Engine and a lot of artillery. This patch pretty much kills it completely.
      There's not much to be excited about any more.


      Bastion just straight out losing its 360 shooting, and now we're told it was never its intended main point. Maybe I was wrong to get excited from the get-go.

      The additional rule-to-remember on the close combat incendiary & flammable interaction is S3 AP1 which seem really out of line where prettu much every other fire attack is S4 AP0.

      New hereditary seems to go even more towards the forced synergy of vassals and others, which, I think I'll keep on whining about till the bitter end. Sorry.

      I really would like to have seen an additional user for the seat. Either Ashuruk or Nezibkesh prophets.

      So bulls are now supernal, per their backgrounds? Why aren't they Bound or Broken also?

      What's the background reason for FiER Warriors but only with GW's?

      I thought Lammasu would've been the first one to get a redesign. I'd take literally anything else.

      Rock Crusher engine and the limited Industry points is the worst thing I could've imagined.

      Would've liked if the Kadim Titan would've gotten something fun, like even a quarter of the words that Lammasu has in its rules.


      Its not all bad. I really like the new Giant weapons' redesigns, especially the Maul. Much easier to use now. And bBoth big Taurukhs are more streamlined now.