Multi-part models on mount and special items

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  • Multi-part models on mount and special items

    New

    We are coming from ID Prophet carrying the Golden Idol of Shamut at Infernal Dwarves LAB FAQ. I will copy the discussion here, but basically it turned into a discussion of the rules and whether they contradict each other or not.

    WarX wrote:

    Is anything that preventing Prophet to use this item when mounted on Kadim Chariot to have 6"/12" movement

    Jomppexx wrote:

    "The bearer" refers to the prophet only, not the whole model so it does not work.

    Arturiki wrote:

    But the general profile of the prophet is overriden by the chariot, right? That prophet has no 3/9" movement profile, but 6/6" now.

    WarX wrote:

    But according to rules for multi-part model as @Arturiki stated there is only one, shared statline 6"/6" movement and it is improved.

    Eisenheinrich wrote:

    No, mounted models are not affected:
    <
    19.B.3 Global and Defensive Characteristics
    The Multipart Model has a single set of Global Characteristics and a single set of Defensive Characteristics. Always use the values in the mount’s profile, except when that value is “C”.

    22.B.b Who is Affected
    Special Items may affect different targets:
    • The wielder, wearer, or bearer: these terms mean the same thing for rules purposes and refer to the model part the Special Item was bought for (and don’t affect its mount).
    >

    Arturiki wrote:

    Excuse me if I am too thick, but I see those 2 rules contradict each other.
    Display Spoiler

    By 29.B.3, you agree with me, that the Prophet on a Kadim Chariot has a single set of Global Characteristic and the blue text says to use this mount's profile, which 6/6" for Advance and March Rates. And they are not defined by "C", so I think my assumption is right.

    Now I equip this Prophet with the Idol of Shamut, which talks about the bearer. By 22.B.b, the blue text says it does not affect the mount. However, the Global Characteristic profile of the Prophet has been overriden. It's not the original Global Characteristic of the Prophet; it is not the original Global Characteristic of the Chariot; how I see it, it is a combination of both. But still, by 29.B.3, there is only a single set of Global Characteristic.

    How I see 22.B.b making a difference is when the special item is when it modifies the set of Offensive Characteristics. Which in this case, there are 2 of them (Prophet, Chariot). Now there I see that 22.B.b wouldn't affect the mount. But for the previous case... I do really not see it clear.

    I bet you have had these kind of discussions during assembly of all rules, but I find them contradicting; or at least, working in "my favour" and allowing the 6/12".

    Eisenheinrich wrote:

    I don't think they are.
    Display Spoiler

    You have one model part, the prophet, with Adv 3" and Mar 9".
    And you have another model part, the chariot, with Adv 6" and Mar 6".

    Now you buy the golden idol for the prophet (not for his chariot), and you modify his Adv to 4" and his Mar to 12".

    19.B.3 tells us not to use the character's values (4/12) but the mount's (6/6), so the movement modifiers from the idol don't have any effect on mounted characters (unless the mount's Adv/Mar values would say "C")

    Arturiki wrote:

    Alright, I can only convince myself if my interpretation of 3.A.b is the same as yours, which was not the way I was considering it.
    Display Spoiler

    The way I was interpreting it before is that now the multi-part model will have several offensive profiles, but just one movement and defensive. These last 2 tend to be a modification of the mount's profiles, but are in no case the mount's profile. It is a new combined profile which is part of the multi-part model. Which makes sense with 19.B.3 (you quoted it earlier).


    The way I have to interpret it to follow your understanding would be that there are still different hidden global and defensive profiles for the every part of the multi-part model (ignoring 19.B.3?), but you can only use the mount's global and defensive profiles (even when they are modified/combined, they are considered the mount's), and then continuing with 3.A.b:


    And then I could agree that the great idol of Shamut grants no further benefit to the advance and march.


    I hope you understand my reasoning, I am not trying to use that in my advantage. I just think now that it could be twisted and interpreted it "my way". Please correct me where I am wrong.

    WarX wrote:

    @Eisenheinrich @Arturiki is pointing to valid thing: in other place it is stated clear in BRB that multi-part model being character+mount has only merged characteristics. There is no 'Prophet' with 4"/12" and 'Chariot' with 6"/6". There is whole model with 6"/6". This way referring to model part is irrelevant for attributes not related to Offensive Profile.

    Jomppexx wrote:

    But still the chariot is not the bearer it's the prophet.

    Arturiki wrote:

    [Iron orc warlord in iron orc unit]
    It's not the chariot's, it's the "prophet on a kadim chariot"'s profile.

    WarX wrote:

    Here it is stated that you rewrite some stuff from Character to mount profile when there is 'C' reference:
    Display Spoiler
    19.B.3 Global and Defensive Characteristics

    The Multipart Model has a single set of Global Characteristics and a single set of Defensive Characteristics. Always use

    the values in the mount’s profile, except when that value is “C”. In this case, “C” refers to the value in the Character’s

    profile which is used instead. Sometimes, a value is written as “C + X”. In this case, use the Character’s value, increased

    by X.

    For example, if a Character (Armour 0) rides a horse (Armour C + 2), wears Heavy Armour (+2 Armour), and carries

    a Shield (+1 Armour), the Multipart Model has an Armour equal to: 0 + 2 + 2 + 1 = 5.
    But here it is stated that model has only one set of stats:
    Display Spoiler
    8.D.c Unit Entries with Multipart Models

    The examples above show entries of units with models consisting of a single model part, but there are also many

    Multipart Models in the game (see “Multipart Models”, page 7). The unit entry of a Character Mount, the Winged

    Monkey Chariot from the example in figure 16, will be used to explain the particularities of this type of unit entry.


    Winged Monkey Chariot

    Display Spoiler
    0–1 Mounts/Army

    Height Large

    Type Construct

    Base 50×100 mm

    Global Adv Mar Dis Model Rules

    Ground

    Fly

    2″

    9″

    2″

    9″

    C Fly (9″, 9″), Light Troops, Swiftstride

    Defensive HP Def Res Arm

    4 C 4 C+1 Hard Target (1)

    Offensive Att Off Str AP Agi

    Crew (2) 1 4 3 0 5 Light Lance

    Winged Monkey (2) 2 4 4 1 4 Harnessed, Hatred

    Chassis 5 2 Impact Hits (D6), Inanimate
    Figure 16: Unit entry of a Multipart Model.

    a) Like for any other unit entry, there may be restrictions on the number of Character Mounts that can be part of an

    army. In the example above, the army may only contain up to a single Character, regardless of the type, on a Winged

    Monkey Chariot. This restriction only applies to Character mounts, so if an Army Book contains the Character mount

    additionally as a unit in another Army Category, you are allowed to take this unit in addition to the Character mount

    in your army.

    b) In case of a Multipart Model Character, many of a model’s Characteristic values will be determined by the mount’s

    Characteristics, unless they are marked with “C” or “C+X” in the mount’s profile (see “Special Cases of Characteristic

    Values”, page 15), which refers to the value in the Character’s profile. In this example, the mount does not have a

    proper Discipline Value, but the Multipart Model uses the Character’s Discipline, which is 8.

    c) Models consisting of a single model part have one Global, Defensive, and Offensive Profile each. Multipart Models

    also have one Global and Defensive Profile each, which apply to the entire Multipart Model. However, they do have a

    separate Offensive Profile for each identical model part. The mount above has 5 model parts: 2 Crew members and 2

    Winged Monkey’s (as indicated by the “2” in brackets) and a Chassis, which all have their own Offensive Profile.
    Now. I never found in BRB statement that for instance Suit of Armour not applies to model (actually it doesn't state anything related to statline). Same for movementrelated enchantments...
    Last sentence I consider it key: Now. I never found in BRB statement that for instance Suit of Armour not applies to model (actually it doesn't state anything related to statline). Same for movement related enchantments...

    Goblin Lunatic

    Translation - ES

  • New

    My five cents:

    I understand the fact that if mount for character does not benefit from some boosts because it has no 'C' in statline evolved from some Games Workshop games. And everybody takes it for granted.

    But it doesn't come from the rules that one can find in BRB. This is because as already @Arturiki emphased: there is no distinction of model parts for global and defensive statlines.

    So if some Enchantment states: Bearer gains Distacting it have to apply to whole model, same for armour, movement or whatever.
    Only exception here is Massive Bulk rule which forbids this explicitly.

    I know this is not intended at all, but I never played any Games Workshop game and I refere only to our game rules.
  • New

    I still don't see the issue...

    WarX wrote:

    Bearer gains Distacting it have to apply to whole model
    Exactly - this example is even specifically stated in the BRB:
    <
    21.D Personal Protections
    If at least one model part has a Personal Protection, the entire Multipart Model follows the rules of the Personal
    Protection, unless the model’s mount is of Gigantic Height (and therefore has the Massive Bulk Universal Rule). In
    this case, only the mount’s Personal Protections are applied.
    For example, if a Character with Distracting mounts a horse (Standard Height), the Multipart Model is affected
    by Distracting. If the Character instead mounts a dragon (Gigantic Height), the Multipart Model is not affected by
    Distracting.
    >

    WarX wrote:

    same for armour
    Armour modifies the riders Arm value. In case of two model parts, and if the mount's profile shows "C" for Arm, the armour equipment will apply for the entire model, yes.

    WarX wrote:

    movement
    I already explained (or at least tried to) why this is not the case above.
  • New

    @Eisenheinrich Please find spot where it is stated that Armour Equipment modifies 'riders' Armour. Keep in mind two cited places where it is stated that there is single Global and Defensive profile, so Rider has no own Armour value.

    Or maybe there is place stating that first you sum up all statistics and then merge multi-part model profiles?

    I want it to work as you describe, I just point out it is not reflected by rules explicitly.
  • New

    WarX wrote:

    @Eisenheinrich Please find spot where it is stated that Armour Equipment modifies 'riders' Armour. Keep in mind two cited places where it is stated that there is single Global and Defensive profile, so Rider has no own Armour value.

    Or maybe there is place stating that first you sum up all statistics and then merge multi-part model profiles?

    I want it to work as you describe, I just point out it is not reflected by rules explicitly.
    Obviously Armour modifies the riders armour. In case of the horse example it just carries over to the whole combined model instead of only the rider model part. After all the horse can't buy heavy armour or whatever. In practice you can also stack up armour on a model part riding a dragon but it won't do anything.
    It's okay, it has frenzy.

    Just Flank It © KoE - Tactics 101
  • New

    Jomppexx wrote:

    WarX wrote:

    @Eisenheinrich Please find spot where it is stated that Armour Equipment modifies 'riders' Armour. Keep in mind two cited places where it is stated that there is single Global and Defensive profile, so Rider has no own Armour value.

    Or maybe there is place stating that first you sum up all statistics and then merge multi-part model profiles?

    I want it to work as you describe, I just point out it is not reflected by rules explicitly.
    Obviously Armour modifies the riders armour. In case of the horse example it just carries over to the whole combined model instead of only the rider model part. After all the horse can't buy heavy armour or whatever. In practice you can also stack up armour on a model part riding a dragon but it won't do anything.
    The problem we are pointing is that according to current rules there is no raider. This is exactly what we want to clarify. When you put character on mount there is no 'rider's defensive profile' there is only combined model defensive profile.

    Same issue was with Locket of Sunna, so after some errata it explicitly states that R is swapped from combined model's profile...
  • New

    So even after merging profiles into single sets of global, offensive and defensive, we could say (or have to take) the individual attributes as "coming from this part of the model".

    Eisenheinrich wrote:

    Armour modifies the riders Arm value. In case of two model parts, and if the mount's profile shows "C" for Arm, the armour equipment will apply for the entire model, yes.
    I am not very familiar to this, so I will ask you a question. This might not be an existing case on the current books, however. At least for the first example. I think the second one is feasible.

    I have a character with Resilience 3 and HP 2 (e.g. Goblin Witch Doctor) on a non-gigantic mount Resilience 4 and HP 4 as a mount (e.g. Goblin Wolf Chariot).
    1. I equip some special item that grants the bearer +1 Resilience. Would that mean that I would be applying the bonus to Res 3? Still ending with Res 4 from the mount? I would be ok with this concept if as per 19.B.3 (Global and Defensive Characteristics) didn't explicitely say "The Multipart Model has a single set of Global Characteristics and a single set of Defensive Characteristics." Because I would be modifying a non-existing defensive profile (raw character); the new defensive profile is the combined profile, and specifically the Resilience comes from the mount.
    2. The model is target of Fountain of Youth (Druidism Attribute spell), and the spell is focused. By definition of focused, the target of a multi-part model must be only one of the parts of the model. So the character is chosen as the focused target. The spell's target recovers 1 HP.So following your reasoning, I would be recovering a wound from the character (say from 1 to 2 HP). I would be ok with this concept if as per 19.B.3 (Global and Defensive Characteristics) didn't explicitely say "The Multipart Model has a single set of Global Characteristics and a single set of Defensive Characteristics." Because I would be modifying a non-existing defensive profile (raw character); the new defensive profile is the combined profile, and specifically the HP comes from the mount.

    How I would play it, nevertheless, is (for case 1) to increase the only Resilience value in the only defensive profile from 4 to 5, and (for case 2) to recover 1 HP from the only HP value in the only defensive profile from the current HP (CHP) from the mount to (min(mount's CHP, mount's starting HP).

    I hope I didn't mess up my reasoning.

    Goblin Lunatic

    Translation - ES

  • New

    WarX wrote:

    @Eisenheinrich Please find spot where it is stated that Armour Equipment modifies 'riders' Armour. Keep in mind two cited places where it is stated that there is single Global and Defensive profile, so Rider has no own Armour value.


    Or maybe there is place stating that first you sum up all statistics and then merge multi-part model profiles?
    I think the reasoning (which I do not completely agree is clear enough) is that the merged profile is not a new profile itself, rather a "puzzle" where elements including C are considered part of the rider's defensive profile and explicit numbers are considered part of the mount's defensive profile. At least it is a way of interpreting the following rule. But is it the only way?
    19.B.3 Global and Defensive Characteristics
    The Multipart Model has a single set of Global Characteristics and a single set of Defensive Characteristics. Always use

    the values in the mount’s profile, except when that value is “C”. In this case, “C” refers to the value in the Character’s

    profile which is used instead. Sometimes, a value is written as “C + X”. In this case, use the Character’s value, increased

    by X.

    Goblin Lunatic

    Translation - ES

  • New

    OK, I'll give it one last shot ;) :

    There are two possible situations regarding multipart models:
    1) The model exists only as multipart model, e.g. like all R&F cavaly.
    2) The model exists also exists as non-multipart model, like all characters for which you can buy a mount.

    1) There is only a single unit entry that contains a) a single global profile and b) a single defensive profile for the entire model, as well as c) a single offensive profile for each model part.
    In case of a) and b), I wouldn't talk about these profiles as "merged profiles" or as "profiles from a single model part", as they are simply the combined model's profiles.
    If any modifier applies to either of these profiles, or if any model rule is added to either of them, they apply to the entire model.
    I don't think there any issues here, are there?

    2) There is one unit entry with a global, defensive, and offensive profile for the character/rider, and another set of the three profiles for the mount in the army book. The general rules define that multipart models only have a single global profile and a single defensive profile (which makes sense - you cannot have a model with two different resilience values for instance). So now we have two global and two defensive profiles for one model, but we can actually only have one. So we need rules that tell us what to do in this situation. As such, they tell us to always use the mount's global and defensive values for the multipart model's global and defensive profile - unless there is a "C", in which case you use the rider's values. As for the offensive profiles, you keep both of them.

    Arturiki wrote:

    I equip some special item that grants the bearer +1 Resilience. Would that mean that I would be applying the bonus to Res 3? Still ending with Res 4 from the mount?
    Correct. We actually do have effects like this, e.g. UD Blessed Wrappings, which works if you put the character on a skeletal horse/skeleton chariot/amuut (as these mounts have C for HP in their defensive profiles), but which doesn't work on an ark of ages or on a sha guardian as there are fixed values for HP

    Arturiki wrote:

    I would be ok with this concept if as per 19.B.3 (Global and Defensive Characteristics) didn't explicitely say "The Multipart Model has a single set of Global Characteristics and a single set of Defensive Characteristics." Because I would be modifying a non-existing defensive profile (raw character); the new defensive profile is the combined profile, and specifically the Resilience comes from the mount.
    Nowhere in the rules do we state that the rider loses his profiles - you just don't use them for the multipart model. So you do modify the rider's resilience, which however is irrelevant for the multipart model's profiles.

    Arturiki wrote:

    The model is target of Fountain of Youth (Druidism Attribute spell), and the spell is focused. By definition of focused, the target of a multi-part model must be only one of the parts of the model. So the character is chosen as the focused target. The spell's target recovers 1 HP.So following your reasoning, I would be recovering a wound from the character (say from 1 to 2 HP).
    Targeting the rider would probably not be the best of choices, but yes, you would technically be healing a model part that hasn't lost any HP (because you always only use the mount's), and you would have cast the spell in vain.
  • New

    Eisenheinrich wrote:

    Nowhere in the rules do we state that the rider loses his profiles - you just don't use them for the multipart model. So you do modify the rider's resilience, which however is irrelevant for the multipart model's profiles.
    This is the only thing that doesn't convince me completely... as I would/could argue that the multi-part model has only a single set of global and defensive profiles. If he doesn't lose his profiles, there are more profiles on the multi-part model (even if unused); if the multi-part model has only one, then the rider must have lost them.

    Goblin Lunatic

    Translation - ES

  • New

    I think the confusion here is between a character model (the end result) and the various entries in the book to get there. Of course the entries retain their profile, but they are not a model yet, they are a blueprint to build one. The multi-part model uses only one defensive profile, which is built from the BRB instructions and the profiles stated (and potentially modified by list building) in the character and mount book entries.
    If anything could to be made further clear it is when exactly are you still modifying the entry profiles and when are they already discarded for the model profile.
    To me the intent of "22.B.b Who is Affected" is very clear in that the "bearer" and such is meant to affect the character entry profile and not the combined profile of a multipart model.
  • New

    Shlagrabak wrote:

    If anything could to be made further clear it is when exactly are you still modifying the entry profiles and when are they already discarded for the model profile.
    I guess there is no "when", since every modification from special items, spells, rules happening in every phase and turn would have to "generate" a new model profile.

    Goblin Lunatic

    Translation - ES