VS General Discussion Thread

Chronocide · Mar 14th 2023, 3:07am

Shugdaddy wrote:

I love the Triumphal Platform for the visuals, and run it in most of my lists. However defensively it is a bit lacking, not sure why people would consider it OP

I run mine in a fetthis brute block which means people either back off or send everything at it depending on what the army has.

Lots to dislike about it, in my opinion, both for VS and against VS

VS

Like a VS battlemech that can't mount guns or melee weapons or jump jets...
Massive Bulk/no special save
requires unit
cheap
no particular downsides for cost

Non-VS

It's got like 12 "great weapon" attacks at agi 4 before adding the attached character or the 1d6 impact hits
8 HP is a lot for anything, and it can join units for further decrease in HP loss
Immune to the cannon bonus to hit vs giganic because unit isn't entirely gigantic.
way too durable for a unit that joins other units.
no particular downsides for cost

Batosai · Mar 14th 2023, 4:30am

@skipschnit I praise your attempt to build a unique and very different list. However I don't really see it working.

First of all, your flanks are too weak. One terror causing unit like a giant on each flank and you are already doomed.

Not to mention that 30 def2 res2 rats can't even hold 1 round of combat against certain units played on the flanks like monstrous cavalry. So if you plan to open your lines with double senator and delay the enemy on the flanks that way, it's not going to work and 1 enemy unit will easily collapse your
flank and then your whole battle line.

And to add salt to the wound your shooting is barely an issue to both monstruous cavalry and gigantic models.

While the double Senator idea sounds new and interesting, it's just not cost effective (Not to mention that you'd better make the general the one that doesn't go into combat).

You can do something similar by changing the fighty senator for a legate bsb with legion standard, mithril and swarm master that will make a big Legionaries block really strong due to +7cr (+8 on charge) combined with LiC and all those grinding attacks and also it will allow you to play wider as the unit is totally independent from the general's bubble.

And the other Senator (now the general) with crown of Autocracy is already enough to help you play wider if you'd like.

More importantly, your magic setup doesn't even reach the minimum threshold and will not have enough impact on the game. Specially on combat. 3 spells and 2 bounds is just too few. If you want to go the 1 wizard route I think the bell is a nice addition as it allows you to have that crucial 4th spell. For the bounds, instead of 2 missiles, it's more balanced to go with tome and rod to have 1 missile and 1 buff. Otherwise, once combat starts, your magic phase will just be uneventful.

On the house prefects, even though I think the overseer is not worth it anymore, ok, it fits your plan. My problem is with the second Alchemist. Without Blackfurs, there's not a second unit that will really benefit from the Alchemist other than the Bloodfurs.

As per your core setup, I don’t really see the point on the 2 30x units of slingers. Anti-chaff needs longer range, otherwise it's not that useful. From your list, I would only need to chaff the bloodfurs. And since you cannot kill my chaff from afar, I will easily chaff them. Little it matters that instead of charging and killing my chaff you kill the chaff with slingers. The job is already done. Not to mention that without
Volley fire you might not even be able to easily shoot thw chaff and that you take a great risk of leaving at least one model alive to chaff you another turn.

As already mentioned, canister launchers are currently on a really bad spot after the quadruple nerf, specially because with so few hits you will want to do TnT most of the times and in average for each T4 Knight you kill you will lose one canister. Totally not worth it.

Specially now without usable Orb as your ideal target will have an 10" charge on you if you are at 18", so you either take the risk or waste chaff just to get a round of shooting that's not worth it.

On the small units of Ignifiers, as already commented, it's more efficient to go bigger, at least 10. Specially if you plan to shoot into combats. Also, smaller units are another easy way to be one-shot and create lots of panic tests.

Display Spoiler

Magister Fleapelt · Mar 14th 2023, 9:35am

arwaker wrote:

Well, winrate could have been high or low, doesn't change the fact that the rules cause a lot of unhappiness. This hopefully has improved now. Appropriate point costs will come anyway.

The rules caused unhappiness for whom? It has improved now - for whom?
Certainly not for those people who actually play and collect the army. For the first time since the beginning of the LAB I had the impression that shooting actually worked for this army. Before the nerf, you had given each shooting unit a unique purpose and the rules to fulfill it. Bravo!

"Apprpriate point costs will come anyway"

Yes, that's what LAB could have done instead of a quadruple nerf to shooting.

arwaker · Mar 14th 2023, 11:52am

OP rats? your cries here

Juanmi-SK · Mar 14th 2023, 1:24pm

Here, @Chronocide is my version of a "gun line" with the new rules.

skipschnit wrote:

Display Spoiler

B. Jones - Vermin Swarm
365 - Vermin Senator, Senatorial Litter, Alchemist's Alloy, Pistol (Storm Rocket), Crown of Hubris, Crown of Autocracy
305 - Vermin Senator, General, Senatorial Litter, Essence of Mithril, Hand Weapon (Swarm Master), Tome of the Ratking, Tarina's Lyre
325 - Bloodfur Legate, Greater Eagle Standard (Legion Standard), Destiny's Call, Paired Weapons (Hero's Heart), Lightning Vambraces
250 - Swarm Priest, Wizard Adept, Thaumaturgy, Magical Heirloom, Caelysian Pantheon
210 - House Prefect, Deepfire Thrower, Orator's Toga, Skorchit Alchemist
185 - House Prefect, Pistol (Rodentium Bullets), Orator's Toga, Skorchit Alchemist
160 - House Prefect, Pistol (Rodentium Bullets), Darkstone Detonator, Stygian Overseer
298 - 38 Vermin Legionaries, Spear, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
262 - 27 Vermin Velites, Bow, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
250 - 30 Vermin Velites, Sling, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
250 - 30 Vermin Velites, Sling, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
135 - 30 Vermin Slaves, Tunnelling Tools
135 - 30 Vermin Slaves, Tunnelling Tools
465 - 40 Blackfur Veterans, Bloodfur Praetorians, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
80 - 10 Giant Rats
80 - 10 Giant Rats
235 - 4 Experimental Weapon Teams, Rotary Gun
235 - 4 Experimental Weapon Teams, Canister Launcher
143 - 6 Ignifier Grenadiers
130 - 5 Ignifier Grenadiers
4498

With this list, Callous is not a hindrance, but a perk to the playstyle. It helps to extend the effectiveness of the shooting. I can use the Slaves to gain the +1 to hit rather than spend on a Rakachit Prefect. I can use the Grenadiers to boost the power of Callous and now hit enemy on 1-4 distribution rather than 1-3. I can stand back and see how the enemy moves so that I can position my troops to unleash the missile fire as this army build doesn't use a long-range tactic, but a 12-24" kill zone for missile fire. My 4 tunnels take the place of my artillery, while the use of Rodentium Bullets helps increase my firepower without suffering Mishaps. The extended bow range can put down 27 shots (9x3) so that most chaff will have a hard time getting past that 24" bubble. A solo Deepfire is all I need to make an enemy unit lose a rank, maybe 2 so that I can get my Steadfast and Cohort Coordination when the time comes. With the slaves and giant rats as redirectors or speed bumps for a round of shooting, this can help to pin the enemy within that kill zone range to lessen their effectiveness when they reach my lines. With the Velites having slings and paired weapons, they are the most effective core unit for their footprint. Having double senator guarantees me a good Discipline value across the board, especially with the Crown and the Legate GES. With the Litters, I'll have a Dis 8 when the enemy gets close or when I push up the General in his Stubborn bunker to deal with anything that pushes through the mid-section after shooting. I don't need to worry about losing my General, as I have the redundancy of Discipline values and Eagle Standards built in via the other Senator and Legate. I don't need a lot of magic either as I have built in redundancy of spells via the Priest's 3 spells and the other 2 bounds. Raising the rat swarms can be effective against enemy, especially when they have to worry about several bases. The same for the Hand of Heaven for those solo models that the enemy needs to protect. This leaves me with a free spell that I can tailor to the matchup whether it's a resilience reduction or a breath weapon (I doubt that I will ever use the Speaking in Tongues). Killing off 3 legionaries a turn is a free magic dice and will result in 18 dead rats (if nothing else hits them or wipes them out), which is not enough to give up their points. With keeping the units fairly small, it also creates more flexibility in the army so that no one unit lost is a detriment to the army when it comes to the Victory Conditions (except the general and bunker as that is a lot of points given up). To have 5 Scoring units is in the average range for a list to compete with secondaries as well.

Thoughts on paper....now for the real test which is to see how it actually performs.

I found the idea of a double senator very interesting!! It's something I hadn't thought of before, although I have some doubts.
Does the senator who is not the general, thanks to the crown, give his LD to all units within 18" because of the senator rule??

Although I would put the real general without a palanquin and without weapons/armor, perhaps only in a toga and with a rocket. That way it would be more economical, and the false general could be interesting if he managed to get a 1+ armor save and the Swarm Master + Tarina's Lyre.

Very suggestive, skipschnit, I will definitely try something like that.

You'll have to let us know what results you get

arwaker · Mar 14th 2023, 3:38pm

I think a "Gunline" should have Wrath of God and maxed long range artillery.

skipschnit · Mar 14th 2023, 3:42pm

arwaker wrote:

I think a "Gunline" should have Wrath of God

I had to settle for a bunch of little ones, although I'm not sure if I think of them as little Unerring Strikes or a bit of Ice and Fire.

DemonLordDave · Mar 14th 2023, 5:48pm

arwaker wrote:

I think a "Gunline" should have Wrath of God and maxed long range artillery.

I’ve been thinking of a list that uses:
Maus Rifle x3
Skorchit ordnance
Deepfires x3
Jezzails x3
1120/1125

plus Wrath of god of course

arwaker · Mar 14th 2023, 6:41pm

Building on your base...

Vermin Swarm
290 - Swarm Priest, Wizard Adept, Witchcraft, Crown of Hubris, Holy Triumvirate, Caelysian Pantheon
270 - Swarm Priest, Wizard Adept, Thaumaturgy, Magical Heirloom, Holy Triumvirate, Caelysian Pantheon
260 - Vermin Senator, General, Pistol (Storm Rocket), Orator's Toga, Cowl of the Apostate
160 - House Prefect, Pistol (Rodentium Bullets), Darkstone Detonator, Stygian Overseer
290 - 35 Vermin Legionaries, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard (Legion Standard)
260 - 30 Vermin Legionaries, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard (Legion Standard)
180 - 15 Vermin Velites, Bow, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
180 - 15 Vermin Velites, Bow, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
165 - 15 Vermin Velites, Sling, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
155 - 25 Giant Rats
155 - 25 Giant Rats
135 - 30 Vermin Slaves, Tunnelling Tools
135 - 30 Vermin Slaves, Tunnelling Tools
365 - 8 Fetthis Brutes
80 - 10 Giant Rats
80 - 10 Giant Rats
225 - 3 Experimental Weapon Teams, Deepfire Thrower
120 - 3 Experimental Weapon Teams, Jezail and Shield
205 - Vermin Artillery, Skorchit Ordnance
190 - Vermin Artillery, Rakachit Mauss Rifle
190 - Vermin Artillery, Rakachit Mauss Rifle
190 - Vermin Artillery, Rakachit Mauss Rifle
110 - Dreadmill Chariots
110 - Dreadmill Chariots
4500

skipschnit · Mar 14th 2023, 7:04pm

I like it. Next I’m going to see if I can squeeze 3 Doomsparks in a list. If I can, then maybe I’ll print off another Doomspark model so I can put them on the board.

DemonLordDave · Mar 14th 2023, 10:59pm

skipschnit wrote:

I like it. Next I’m going to see if I can squeeze 3 Doomsparks in a list. If I can, then maybe I’ll print off another Doomspark model so I can put them on the board.

Doomsparks are very useful, particularly in later turns if they can survive. I have one opponent in my local group that plays ID, and they don’t survive long against rocket batteries/handguns and alchemy lol.

Derrick85 · Mar 17th 2023, 12:45am

Has anyone come up with a good list that uses the Ruinous Dictator? I've started toying around with some attempts but not sure I feel that anything is strong. I would love to use this model again.

skipschnit · Mar 17th 2023, 1:30am

Derrick85 wrote:

Has anyone come up with a good list that uses the Ruinous Dictator? I've started toying around with some attempts but not sure I feel that anything is strong. I would love to use this model again.

I’ve used him as a fighter with a bunch of slaves nearby and a Senator leading a unit out wide so they aren’t unstable. Lock things up and just shoot into combats. It was 50/50. I haven’t tried him sinc e the update that he counts towards Holy Tri yet, though. But I will. :evil:

Batosai · Mar 17th 2023, 2:22am

Derrick85 wrote:

Has anyone come up with a good list that uses the Ruinous Dictator? I've started toying around with some attempts but not sure I feel that anything is strong. I would love to use this model again.

As long as you bring some units to hide him if necessary, like the bell or Stygian/Arena Beast/Doomspark you should be fine. Its higher risk than running a senator hidden on a bunker but still playable.

BlackLancer · Mar 17th 2023, 6:31am

I don't think anyone has formally done analysis on the post-patch VS shooting in text form, so I am going to try and do it here. (No discussion of tunnels here as that is not my focus here, although the nerfs to them also certainly also tone down the shooting power of VS).

Overall Point: The changes to VS shooting went much to far and likely did not address the root problems, and did not attempt to rectify the problems with points. The shooting certainly warranted some changes, but what we got is overlapping nerfs that killed entries, invalidated synergies, and largely rendered most shooting options unplayable.

The shooting changes:
-Trial and terror +1 wound, no aegis save from bell
-Rotary Guns -1shot
-Cannister launcher deleted from game (or it may as well have been)
-Orb of Ateus, +20 points, now costs 2 veil tokens, +1 wound
-Shadow fur moved to tunnel gunners
-Both shooting weapons went up in points (Rodentium bullets and Storm Rocket)
-Grenadiers more expensive
-Deepfire thrower more expensive
-Rotary Guns more expensive

So, lets unpack this a little. Not only did every shooting weapon outside of flamethrowers get multiple direct nerfs (the flamethrower nerfs were indirect), they also unbelievably went up in points!? Additionally, the synergies with the Orb got nerfed into the ground.

Lets talk about the Orb for a moment. This was a critical item enabling VS weapon teams to function and made a lot of the shooting builds viable. One of the biggest limitations with VS shooting is the range. 18" means that the weapon shooting is exposed to counter-fire. Plus, with the blocky-nature of VS, it can be very tricky to find avenues to fire. Your army is forced to play in a bubble. It can be very difficult to find areas where your units are safe, not chaffing your own units, and also in range of the enemy. The Orb really helped with this problem. It has now been nerfed into the ground. Not only did it go up 20 points, but now you take 2 wounds when using when you roll a 1. If you use trial and terror and get slightly unlucky you now wipe out your unit!? And it costs 2 veil tokens? - This item could be free and it would be a very questionable choice whether or not to use it in a game. If your rotary guns are worth 55-points each, the target you are shooting at better be incredibly valuable given that it will cost you 2 veil tokens and an insane amount of self-harm to shoot at it.

I can see why an item like the orb would be hard to balance. It solves one of the major weaknesses of VS shooting (low range). Additionally, the item is going to bring the most value in a list that has multiple weapons teams. You are not going to spend 70-points to buff a single unit, but if you have multiple units maybe it would be worth it (but not with its current rules). I would like to hear some thoughts on the design of this item, because it no longer works, and is certainly not worth its points.

If the Orb needs to have those rules it may as well be redesigned. If it cost 10-points I might consider taking it in lists, just for that once-in-a-game moment where the stars align that might justify killing my own unit to shoot an enemy at long range. But 75 points!??? Who ever thought that this was a good idea!? (2 major nerfs and a points increase!?)

Lets look at Rotary guns. Points increase, -1 shot, worse mishap, orb that is not worthwhile.

Do the rule-designers not see how all these rules combine together to create an entry that is getting pretty close to unviable. Yes, some changes were needed and justified, but all of those at the same time and a points increase? Insanity... I would really like to hear from the designers why stacking 4 nerfs on a unit also warranted a points increase?

The problem is probably +1 to wound:

When you do the math and compare the point-efficiency of most VS shooting to that of shooting options in other books, it underperforms (except flamethrowers). Not only is the range lower, but the shooting comes from R2 models that do not score, do not have steadfast, and cannot operate outside of the bubble. The only thing in their favor is that giving them +1 to wound makes them extremely versatile. There are almost no bad targets for VS shooting because +1 to wound makes them useful against everything. Normally toxic shots are not especially good against high-resilience characters, but give those shots +1 to wound and all of a sudden you are wounding on a 5+ with AP10. Look at rotary guns. S4 AP2 is arguably designed to blend rank-and-file infantry and fast-cav. Give them +1 to wound and all of a sudden they are monster killers.

This update is an extreme over-reaction to poorly thought-out rules from the December update. Everyone could see that giving VS shooting +1 to wound was going to cause problems. In December, not only did VS shooting get +1 to wound, but they also got the orb, better engineers, and buffed shooting. Now all those synergies have been removed and the points went up!

-> The core issues were not addressed, we just got a band-aide that renders VS shooting more or less unplayable. You may see a small unit of flamethrowers, but the overall impact is to delete a playstyle from the VS book. Obviously the shooting needed adjustments, but these changes went too far and did not even fix the problem.

You cannot nerf the units, delete the synergies, and increase points and assume this is a good, balanced update. The books shooting needs an immediate re-work. - This is not a situation where we need to wait for more data. No one will play VS shooting now, no data will be generated. Lets go back to the drawing board. - Can we hear from the designers what the plan and timeline is to fix this?

arwaker · Mar 17th 2023, 8:00am

I partially agree.

There was a massive nerf overall, it this was somehow reasonable. I agree that Canister Launcher and Orb of Ateus are now not worth picking. I think they both can be "fixed" with point changes, but that would be really low points. Maybe to a level where it feels unrealistic? Not sure.

Ateus with the rules as they are right now is a very situational item. At low enough cost I would pick it. For tactical reasons, I don't want it on a Senator, so I would only ever pick it when I anyway have a TechnocRat. And here I think even more relevant that the point cost alone, is the potential combination with other item. I think at 30 points it is cheap enough to make it viable alone, and also offering a good variety of different other enchantments to be combined with.
I don't think it is dead by rules. But it is certainly not a nobrainer. It is only worth the tokens and extra damage when the reward is big. Being so situational is probably not liked by many players on a conceptual level, but I personally think it is valid.

The Canister Launcher was hit really hard. Before it did 6 or 2 hits (4 average), now doing 3 or 0 (1.5 average). This alone reduced the output to less than half. Yes it was too strong before, but this went too far I fear. My usual comment, sure it can be made attractive with points. But it would certainly be lower than Jezail, and that I consider at least as undesirable awkward in feeling. I think 2x2 aoe would be the right spot to make it cost a good value.

The rest of the shooting is in my opinion now at a good level, not significantly overpriced. Yes even Rotary.

arwaker · Mar 17th 2023, 8:19am

I don't like the name for Darkstone Detonator. It sounds very similar to Doomspark's Darkstone Generator, indicating similarity. Not sure why exploding tunnels should be related to Darkstone at all. I think there are better names for a tool that detonates our tunnels.

Chronocide · Mar 17th 2023, 8:22am

arwaker wrote:

I think 2x2 aoe would be the right spot to make it cost a good value.

Wasn't it already something like this, in the previous versions of the LAB, and the players didn't think it was strong enough? Mind you, that was before the present T&T.

My assumption with the change is that the LAB team assumed that Area effects reduced to a minimum of 1 with the partial hits, then nobody corrected it because it does work as is and was supposed to be a nerf, but it probably nerfed it more than intended and they just rolled with it. My guess only.

EDIT: yes, the cannister was 2x2 aoe up until beta 2 release on Nov 23rd 2022
the-ninth-age.com/community/fi…/index.php?download/5965/

arwaker · Mar 17th 2023, 8:25am

Actually it was not the Canister Launcher itself that was underpowered back then before December. It was the general Experimental Weapon Team unit. We have now Light Troops, which is very handy to have.
And you definitively forget that cap on number of hits.

Edit: So even with reduced range from 24 to 18, the removal of cap makes Canister at least equal when assuming same 2x2 aoe. On top of that there is the Light Troops buff to Experimental Weaponteams.

Chronocide · Mar 17th 2023, 8:31am

arwaker wrote:

I don't like the name for Darkstone Detonator. It sounds very similar to Doomspark's Darkstone Generator, indicating similarity. Not sure why exploding tunnels should be related to Darkstone at all. I think there are better names for a tool that detonates our tunnels.

I feel like the bearer should explode when the darkstone detonator is used....

Something along the lines:

One use only. Activated at the bearer's initiative step, before making any attacks. When activated the bearer is slain. Then bearer's unit takes 4d6 S4 AP2 shooting hits, and an enemy unit of the bearer's choice also takes 4d6 S4 AP2 hits. If the bearer is in a duel, these hits are allocated to the enemy model in the duel, with excess damage counting towards overkill, but not carrying over to the enemy unit.

VS General Discussion Thread

Shugdaddy wrote:

arwaker wrote:

skipschnit wrote:

arwaker wrote:

arwaker wrote:

skipschnit wrote:

Derrick85 wrote:

Derrick85 wrote:

arwaker wrote:

arwaker wrote:

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