Pinned Feedback to the Pricing Survey 2020

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  • Feedback to the Pricing Survey 2020

    Hello and safe travels, friends and seekers of the Veil!

    ACS Sidereo here to gather some community internal feedback on the poll/survey that was conducted not long ago where you were asked to give your opinion (without reason) on which five entries in the Army Book are overpriced respectively underpriced.

    The following are our five winners of both respective categories:

    Underpriced EntriesPricing*Overprized EntriesPricing*
    Lemures210 pts/25 pts
    (10 / +1)**
    Iron Husk (Manifestation)110 pts
    Hellhounds170 pts/20 pts
    (5 / +1)**
    Courtesan of Cibaresh550 pts
    Threshing Engine155 ptsClawed Fiends270 pts/100 pts
    (3 / +1)**
    Blazing Glory290 ptsHoarders280 pts/110 pts
    (3 / +1)**
    Bloat Flies300 pts/100 pts
    (3 / +1)**
    Veil Serpents245 pts/50 pts
    (3 /+1)**

    * Pricing is to be understood as the base price without any upgrades and in disregard of any best in slot options or metas.
    ** Pricing entries of the format X pts/Y pts (Z / +1) mean that you get Z number of models for the price of X points (base price) and then every single model added afterwards costs Y points.

    As a community you are now kindly asked to give reasons as to why those entries have landed on this list as they might need a retweaking. Gaining insight into the community's opinion on how building lists of their army feels is very valuable. Please try to explain as clearly as possible your reasoning, which might of course also be in regards to a units possible upgrades.

    I have included pricing in the list for faster reference, in case your eldritch summoning knowledge fails you for a moment, don't be hesitant to reference my listing above. It is dangerous to dabble in the arts of Chaos without being prepared as best as you can. :evil: All Daemon knowledge brought forth was taken from the Tome of Summoning of this year's second moon! (Daemon Legions Army Book 2nd Edition, version 2020 –February 24, 2020,…/index.php?download/3575/)


    (Edit: cleared some typos, early morning summonings seemed to have gone wrong... :sleeping: )
    cuncta fluunt
  • My 2 cents

    Lemures are good at not dying, and the hoarders (only special choice with the same purpose) are just not worth it in my meta (and in many other' meta from what i understand).
    Overall, in the core section you can find
    - lemures in small and mid units
    - mymidons in mid and big units
    - succubis in small and mid units
    - imps in small units
    I wouldn't even touch at the lemures and don't see them as "underpriced", if the small units is the issue then at worst increase the base cost by 10/20 points and decrease the additional model cost by 1/2 points

    Hellhounds : no idea... They can deliver an omen and be used as chaff, can threaten some cav but they aren't too strong either, maybe add 5/10 base points ? more and they could disappear from chaff

    Engine : only the horde and legion are underpriced, the base chariot could even be in overpriced

    Glory and Flies : from what i see, current meta is mostly single models or with high mobility, glory and flies both field these roles AND counter them to some extent, if the meta was a lot of big trash units they wouldn't see so many play :)

    Iron husk : usable by harbinger or either GD in a bad overall spot either GD that need other manifestation to work... effect is good but with current design, depending on the price it will either never be picked or be picked too often

    Courtesan : priced at her pick perfomance, aka in the flank or rear of a big unit, if the cost is reduced by more than half the cost of iron husk, i will think about taking her some times :)

    Fiends : never field them since brazen beasts, glories and flies are OK, and never regretted it :) their speed is good but even against their intended targets they are OK and will barely win 50% of their fights will they are supposed to be a specialized unit...

    Hoarders : as said, special unit in competition with lemures in core, lemures are way better and hoarders just die too quickly even for a bunker

    Serpents : nice tool to have, but it's a support unit picked for a conclave option who don't want close fight with a special rule that you want to bring in close fight... either really reduce the conclave cost or the base cost, but there is an issue here :)
  • It is hard to give any reasons to choices that aren’t yours. I surmise that the majority of those underpriced votes came from opponents and not DL Players.

    As for me...

    Lemures...never used them. R5 is nice, but they don’t fit my playstyle or give me the combat that I want.

    Hellhounds....I always use them. I think they are cost effective as is and are great for getting certain characters to the fight. They die fairly easy to ranged attacks, which is why I run 2 units. They are better priced than Sirens and can achieve the same thing.

    Threshing Engine...never used one. I don’t care if its below 150 points, a R4 S3 chariot just doesn’t float my boat.

    Blazing Glory...I don’t understand the “UP” on this guy? The fly ability is way too overcosted and takes up Aves category points. The on foot version can be chaffed up and ranged attacks weaken him into a high priced chaff piece. I think this is a vote from opponents who have gotten caught out of position by a full HP Glory.

    Bloat Flies...I use them every now and then. I don’t think that they are underpriced, but right in the sweet spot for what they do. Any more increase in price and it greatly affects your army build if you use anything that is connected to Aves.

    Iron Husk....never used it as its too expensive and the models that I use are already R6 or have different roles.

    Courtesan...Use every now and then, but as a naked flanker. Too expensive for its role. It is priced because of its situational ability, which rarely gets to be used.

    Clawed Fiends...This unit is very versatile, and I would have guessed it to be in the underpriced tally because of this. I just don’t understand polls I guess.

    Hoarders...never used because of their price and lack of combat potential (for me). I favor Fiends over them.

    Veil Serpents...never used because their price interferes with the Aves category and throws off my army build. Taking a Scourge really puts a hurt on what else you can put into your army due to the high cost of Aves.
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

  • Hello there.

    Lemures : Yes they do a good bunker, butthey are only 1 attack F3, not very effective for 25 pts/model (sick) forthe same cost i can have a warrior of dark god better in all areas except resistance.

    Hellhounds : very good chaff who can be a bit dangerous for small units, i never see better than 5 models units, perhaps up their base cost a bit?

    Threshing Engine : overprieced? a chariot with res 4 S4 and just an aegide? It's a very fast chariot but i don't think he was overpriced

    Blazing Glory : I think it's strong, I see a lot of list with cloven hooves, perhaps a small up for the base cost or up the cloven hooves manifestation?

    Bloat Fly : Never played them, but i see some list based on a bloat fly death star. I don't know if they are really overprieced

    Iron husk : i don't really see the interest of this manifestation, for the majority of daemonic it's "only" a +1 res. I think all others manifestations will be more interesting.

    Courtesan : The problem with it that he can very effective against certain armies, and ineffective against others. perhaps a drop of 20 pts?

    Clawed Fiends: I think they are very effective for hunt tall units but Hinging jawn is a bit overpricied for this role.

    Hoarders : less resilient than lemures, and in special, the loss off Pa 1 make them unefficient I think

    Veil serpent : never play them, I don't know.
  • Regarding the undercosted options:

    Threshing Engine and Blazing Glories are unsurprising. Both show up quite a bit. I'd be interested in seeing what the breakdown was for manifestations and options for each one. Engines seemed to mostly carry Divining Snout but entertain a mix of sizes. Seems like a small increase in general, plus increasing Snout and dropping the rest, are warranted.

    Meanwhile Blazing Glories (almost) always carried Cloven Hooves and rarely flew. I'd look at balancing costs of manifestations (Hooves up, others down) and increasing the cost of the glory while dropping the cost of the flight upgrade. Hit the configuration that is being overselected due to cost efficiency, help the others out by not hitting them incidentally.

    Bloat Flies are ideal in the current "high armor, high resilience" meta. They can deal with both thanks to their baseline attacks and Toxic Attacks. I'd guess this is more "a problem with the meta" than them actually being too cost efficient. If changes to costs are made to promote a more "rank and file" meta, I'd maybe do a QoL adjustment on these and see how they run. If no changes are made to "shift the meta", then increase them slightly.

    Hellhounds . . . I am having a hard time picturing. Maybe it's because they are a chaff unit that can randomly spike into deleting an enemy unit? It's still hard to understand where that one is coming from. They certainly wouldn't have ever been on my radar as "a unit in need of an increased cost".

    Lemures. . . again, seems weird. They are probably the strongest Core option because they just Don't Give Up Wounds most of the time, so they can be an actually effective anvil to our various hammers. They certainly outperform Myrmidons and Succubi frequently in my experience. . . though that being said, my "local meta" is one where Succubi would struggle by default (high Res/Armor armies abound), Myrmidons are hit or miss (due to high armor and baseline AP1), but Lemures would do well (because there are very few high strength attacks running around). So while it fits with my experience, I'll happily admit that my experience is skewed by a meta unfavorable to the other Core options.

    Regarding the overcosted options:
    - Iron Husk: It makes sense, honestly. The monsters will prefer to either play smart or just use Kaleidoscopic Flesh to drop the odds of a hit and save points. This is especially because there is plenty of options that don't care about Res5 vs. Res6.

    - Courtesan: She's a scalpel competing with broadswords. Her competition, the other Monsters in the characters section, are all more survivable (Scourge is Res6/Hp7, Miser is Res7 with between 1+ and 4+ armor, Maw is Hp9 and can regrow HP) as well as hitting as hard or harder for the most part (Scourge is S7/Ap4, Maw is S6/Ap2 . . . Miser is a worse fighter, though). There's also \quite a few auto-hits, which hurts her more than other monsters because of her low Res/Hp (For a Deamonic Monster). Additionally, her best moment, hitting a flank, is difficult to pull off, if not darn near impossible (seriously, I always use her. I can count on one hand the times I've been able to and allowed to hit a flank with her). She's considered overcosted because she's quite hard to use well and has competition that can do just as good a job while being easier to use and keep alive. All hail the Queen. I hope she gets a price drop, since I've set myself the limitation of "always play with a Courtesan".

    - Clawed Fiends: kinda surprised here, honestly. I've been using them (I feel like) successfully due to their speed with Piercing Spike. AP3 works wonders for them. Still, thinking back on playing them, I realize that the situations where they have performed well were situations where most of our fast/hard hitting units would have performed well anyway (e.g. flank of a cavalry unit) or they hit their ideal target (cough, Ogres, cough). Hey, I welcome a price drop in this unit. :)

    - Hoarders: That AP0 kills them. I remember once they were fighting a unit of 15 Warriors of Envy with spiked shields. The Hoarders had Mirrored Scales and Smothering Coils. The Hoarders ended up losing the combat against a unit half their price. Sure, they held it up for a long while, but a unit of Lemures would have done the same job from Core. Truthfully, that is their biggest problem. Their job, Anvil, can be done just as well by a unit from Core, freeing up more points for our powerful single models and special units. They'll need a heck of a drop to make a comeback.

    - Veil Serpents: Eat into the most relevant category, which includes our best fighter and potentially some of our stronger units. On top of this, they cannot fight because of AP0. Their spells are certainly great (Smite, Glamour, Effigy). However, they just . . . don't bring anything but spells. We need to be efficient with our points, and this unit is one that fails that on two levels (losing points in a specific category, being unable to fight). Hefty Price Drop required. :\
  • Underpriced:
    1. Lemures: yes, certainly. Target the initial cost and Unnatural roots, additional models are already expensive as hell.
    2. Flies: yes, they have one of the cheapest hp for the special units and they fare well in the current monster meta. Unhinged Jaw IMHO also, it maked them ultimate monster killers.
    3. Glories. Just a little bit too good for their price. A bot hit or miss depending on enemy RDPS capabilities but on average they're excellent. Just dont overdo it. Oh, and Cloven Hooves ofc.
    4. Threshing Engine. Definitely yes. Hit the Horde one hardest, then Legion, base version could go down in price for what I care its totally useless.
    5. Hellhounds. Consider them being here a fluke. I dont rate them high nowdays.

    1. Iron Husk. Used exclusively on Maw and Courtesan. If you're fine with it, go from here, if not, drop the points considerably and raise (not lower) pts for those two. This way may be harbingers, omen and deceiver will look at it.
    2. Courtesan. Str5, nuff said. Just dont cut it in the current meta. The price gap with other greaters needs to grow if she wants to be considered.
    3. Hoarders. AP0 was a design mistake IMHO, typical BSTS approach resulting in the unbalanced RPS unit. Keep on dropping pts. Big unit is meaningless without Mirrored Scales, so, target them too (now costed prohibitedly because of BSTS again).
    4. Serpents. This is a support unit, so, I can live with AP0. It hurts but there are still reasons to take them. Only in the min size, big unit is out of equation now IMHO. Just little baby steps price drop (or raising alternatives).
    5. Fiends. I consider them a good unit. Fast and in the current meta they (with Unhinged Jaw) shine brightly. Their problem is competition: Threshers, Glories and Flies are just better and Brazen Beasts can be taken for ~400 pts and be effective, Fiends need 550+ pts, sometimes you just dont have money left. I also think than Unhinged Jaw is very good on them and Broodmother is too costy. Mesmerizing Pllumage is never considered, if it went down more, it could.
  • (1) Lemures - Base unit up by 10, Roots to 3p per model. Brings small units into line with other core, but makes you pay for the best upgrade
    (2) Flies - I think small unit are fine. I would make additional models 110 and increase unhinging jaw to 5.
    (3) Glories - they are actually fine. Cloven hoofs should be 25pts and all the rest should drop
    (4) Threshing Engine: Drop base price by 15, increase Horde upgrade by 25 and Legion upgrade by 20.
    (5) I have no idea what Hellhounds are doing on this list.

    (1) Iron Husk: Drop to 90. Raise Courtesan by 5, Maw by 15 (gets more use out of it due to high wound pool)
    (2) Courtesan: Give +1 to wound. This literally fixes her. Still fragile but now can actually fight.
    (3) Hoarders: Flip to AP1, drop to DS 4
    (4) No idea on serpents - the one unit I have never used
    (5) Fiends are just too specialized and expensive. As Alex said, to make them useful you need to drop big points but they are too glass cannon to do that with.
    Amit Hindocha
    England ETC 2016 Undying Dynasties
    England ETC 2017 Undying Dynasties
    England ETC 2018 Selector
    England ETC 2019 Undying Dynasties
    England ETC 2020 Captain
    England ETC 2021 Captain
  • I think @Jals ideas make totally sense. I'd also consider some other stuffs.

    (1)Maybe getting Imps QTF, as their shooting ability is not considered and they're used just as magic support / H caddy (while getting the magic option a little up in price to balance) so they can somehow exist as cheap core unit. I don't think this would make them too powerful at all, as AP0 is already so limiting. I'm seing too many people not even shooting with them in shooting phase even in competitive games, I think this shows a problem design wise.

    (2)I'm a big fan of the +1 to wound on the courtesan. Good idea, so she would be a deadly but fragile flanker for real, now she's only... fragile. Maybe getting her without any wizard level could be an option too ?

    (3)Somehow the Jaws on the flies is way too cheap, making it at least +10pts/models doesn't seems too expensive. Same for Cloven Hooves on Glories. It's a pity to have so much options and nothing else seing plays.

    (4)Also, another idea for the fiends could be to have one unit counting toward core ? Without changing the design, they could be part of the tax, becoming a fast scoring ? This might get us to a too fast list, but I hardly find 500+ points elsewhere for a conditional unit. And after all, most of the armies have cavalry in core to create polarised lists so...? Maybe create a limitation to somehow avoid to have a fast core + 2 greater deamon running toward the enemy too fast, like we have on Engine on Damnation ?

    (5) Iron Husk has a simple way to be balanced, remove it from the manifestations and put it as an extra choice for each character entry, just like an armor option. By doing so you don't have to create a complex rule, it allows you to make a different pricing for each entry and balance it separately, and it's not taking half of the manifestation allowance away. Simple design and many interesting option to work with. (Could even be a cheap option on harbringers to get them just +1 toughness for instance).

    (6) I think Veil Serpents have interesting design, making them more deadly would probably be a problem, so what about doing it the other way around ? We've seen other wizard conclave with a 4+ ward save, what about trying something like this for them ? As they're a support unit, this gives them the ability to tank a little, be a little less fragile from a distance... but maybe bigger unit would be too strong (yes I'm looking at you, DE acolytes), so this might need a up in price for extra models.

    (7)Hoarders seems hard to balance, I don't know but getting them back to AP1 seems too strong to me. Maybe some rising up profile, getting more dangerous turn after turn, would both shows what they represent and be a way to balance it ? A little like the altar of undeath of VC ?

    Always super interested in the futur of our beloved book.
    Check out my Battle Report Youtube Channel : Blackwood (FR)

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  • Since DL is gold and design cant be changed here my few cents:

    Lemures too low base price but at the same time additional models are prohibitively expensive.

    Hellhounds - used them few times, failed to find them usefull, so can't comment on them.

    I constantly use threshing engine with fly, banner and Mark of Eternal Champion. Sometimes with roaming hands. Increasing the base price of small version (without appropriate decrease of fly upgrade) would kill it for me. It is already little to no consequentual in it's base form.

    Blazing Glory is really good, but any significant increase in their price will kill them.

    Bloat flies - Base price is too low in my opinion, additional models and some manifestations are too high.

    Iron husk - unfortunatelly very situational and thus overpriced manifestation. I understand that 110p price was made in order to stop viable Guiding Omens and Harbringers from existing, but every other applicable entry suffer greatly for this. In my experience there only 3 entries that could really benefit from it: Sentinel, Courtesan and Maw. Problem is - Courtesan and Maw are barely playable without it. Too many times my maw was destroyed in one turn because monster that it was supposed to chew through made too much wounds, while maw itself failed to even hit him enough times in order to regenerate.

    Hoarders - base price is slightly too high for what they bring, but additional models need decrease. Anvil must be big, or it becomes a chaff. Usually they never failed me (unlike my skills) but some books shuts them down too easily. Expecially wodg. 3+ armor spiked shield makes them to wound themselves more than their target. Still among holly trinity (Fiends, Beasts and Hoarders) they are my favorite unit in the book.

    Veil Serpents - Very problematic entry for pricing. Base price need to go down drastically. They are bad in melee and need all bodies they can get if you planning to use them for bringing debuffs on the table. At the same time if you take wizard conclave you want to stay the hell away from any form of melee since Mark bearer dies too easily. Just think about it base squad with Mark cost 245+130= 375 points (only redeeming quality - good range of spells to choose) while producing 0 veil tokens. The only entry that even worse with conclave is Eidolons who have whooping 2hp and 5+ aegis as protection.

    Clawed Fiends - Their additional models pricing is insane. Their only redeeming quality is mobility and average AP. Low survivability, require more bodies in combat and this bodies for some reason are more expenvsive than brazen beasts. The only time when Clawd Fiends was actually viable was when Courtesan was able to grant +2 movement as part of dominion.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project