BH feedback : 3 concerns for Rules Team.

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  • BH feedback : 3 concerns for Rules Team.

    Fellow generals of the Beast Herds!

    The Rules Team is looking to collect feedback on the 2020 balance update for each army in a structured and non-overwhelming way. Each ACS team has been tasked to collect a few big concerns that have come up within their communities since the release and then forward the results to the Rules Team for review. These are the guidelines the ACS teams are operating within:
    1. How many issues can be raised?
      3 per armybook. Each concern is a single unit, a single item, a single spell etc. No combining several units into one concern (we have seen before that people bring up things like "internal balance in core"). Proposed self nerfs excluded, they are free on top.
    2. Deadline?
      January 22
    3. What issues can be raised?
      Price. Unit sizes. Duplication limits. Category limits. Anything that affects list building. Spell casting value.
      Absolutely no redesigns will happen (where redesigns are things that affect how something works on the battlefield)
      So help us to formulate!
      Important is to write feedback with your proposed problem. So explain why it is a problem for you and why it should be reviewed.
    Note: Any and all staff are welcome to give their inputs using the specified format.
  • my concerns are as follows,

    1. For me gortach is still too expensive, if you want to see more people field these magnificent beasts 10 points is not going to do it.

    2. Mino shield increase in my opinion was not needed.

    3. Briar beasts in their current condition need to be alot lower in points before considering them.

    Apart from that I believe the update overall was good for BH
  • Hey fellow Herdmates,


    this is my 5 cents to the topic:

    1. Gortach is still to expensive in comparison to other big monsters in other armybooks.


    2. Briar beasts should go down in points at least a few points to get to see them on the field.


    3. Last but not least (even if to redesign is happening) our armybook spell is pretty useless but more importantly the casting value of 9 for the big version is crazy. This should go down.
  • I need we need to give some love to the entries that are ”left out.

    1. The briar beast! I love this unit, but he is terrible overpriced IMO

    2. Greater totem bearer is to expensive in my opinion.

    3. Out hereditary, I’ve never even considered it.

    Some thing maybe Should go up, perhaps mino starting price Should go up a bit and additions models down, to encourage big units and not the Great Weapon Mino darts
    "I can easily pass this Ld 8 Panic test, my Bsb is right there!" - Famous last words

    :EoS: :OK: :VC: :WDG_bw:
  • Hi guys,

    Taking into account that a redesign isn't possible (hereditary or briar beast need redesign I think), I would suggest:

    - Centaurs chieftain needs a point reduction and a duplication limit of 0-3. In this way, we might see them played more often while avoiding some fear of strong combo with 4 chieftain (depends on the price reduction).

    - Greater totem bearer should get a point reduction or an increase in the power level (5/8 f.ex.). With the way bound spell works and the price increase of the Seed of the dark forest, it feels a bit too pricey while still being an absolute necessity for a BH army without double master.

    - Generally I feel that all our monster lack something or are too pricey. The giant seems to be the only one well balanced. If I have to pick one I would say that the Jabberwock needs a small point reduction in order to be played more often since his rules are based on psychology which has only some impact in specific cases and against some armies.

    Good luck and thanks for the work!
  • hi guys !

    -gortach is too expansive or for thé same price maybe this rule to counter saturation of strengh 3/4 when lucky... when a hit must be wound on 6+ it must be reroll (so for strengh 2/3/4 it s to hard but non changé for other strengh, sorry for m’y english i’ m french).

    -Jabber must be transforme in BB monster with not big stomp and for a price decrease to 220/230pts and maybe option for monture to beastlord.

    -totem must be increase to 5/9 and hereditary change all for another because Bh it’s thé only army who dont use his hereditary spell 90% of Time.
  • Hey there!

    First of all let me point out that I didn't play the beasts for a long time (more than a year now) so my feedback might be a bit less relevant than others'.

    Anyhow here it goes!

    1. BH special items are all pretty bad and simply not picked at the exception of 3-4 playable ones that get points increases every year, suffering from being average while others suck and are then relatively overrepresented. That being said, I believe there is potential behind Hawthorne curse that could see more uses if dropping below 50pts.
    2. Briar beast, I think it's clear for everybody. Its statline, cost and category pit it against Razortusks, although I could see putting a couple Briar beasts if their price drops to 80 or so.
    3. Centaur chieftain, for which I'd love an increase magic items allowance (150pts?) since there is sadly no Centaur lord and to open up some list designs around it.
    4. Bonus: the Hereditary! Although if the only margin we have is -1/-2 to its casting value it won't be enough, the problem is elsewhere. For that reason I didn't want to include it in the main 3 concerns.


    Finally I must say that I am globally happy with how the book looks. Not sure how it fares since most other books also got boosts but if compared to pre-pandemic status the pricing looks fine on most units, aside from the few aspects I raised here and there (items & monsters) but which I believe are design flaws rather than points or balance.

    Tsuandan Warring States
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    ----------
    :totems: BH Homebrew :totems:
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  • Internal balance right now is actually really, really good. This is represented in the lists for Revolution where there's great variety. We will see how the meta shakes out over the next year (which is helped by UB driving folks together). For this reason, I would not suggest touching most of the unit choices as they currently seem to compete well with each other.

    However, here's a few things that don't make the grade.

    1. Hereditary. Awful, awful spell. Make it a 4/7 CV so it can be almost 1-diced. Then you may see it getting use. I doubt it, but worth a try. Instead, see below for my thoughts on totems.

    2. Greater totem bearer might need a good drop from 85 to 50. You see this guy sometimes so the current pricing isn't terrible... However, I feel the totems are such a neat, BH concept (especially for lack of a useable hereditary), I feel we would like a low price that encourages their use in most, if not all, lists. Basically, if the hereditary is not fixable, then make totems significantly cheap enough they become the hereditary (which most armies get for free).

    3. Briar Beast cost still too high. Keep on dropping... :). I assume there's a price whereby this weak sauce is cheap enough, but we're not there yet!
  • I want to mention that I feel like bringing seed and 3 briars is imo mandatory for the price-tag atm. I can not understand the demand for a lower price here honestly. The meta is supposed to shift to bigger bricks and especially with them briars can shine. Nobody wants a briar in the flank/rear/cornerclip of his brick, since it will pretty much be pinned and desperate. Seed ensures you can have the briars wherever you need them.

    Try them out and enfold their potential. They are beyond amazing!
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  • I do play them, but for their costs they do not do much. The best use Ive found for them are umbreakable chaff and maybe trying to get warmachines/rangers units in the back ranks, which gargoyles or ambushers do better IMO
    Its hard to charge into the flanks of a combat when so many boxes need to be ticked like being close to a Forest, not getting countercharged when you wait to charge your next turn so on... dont get me wrong I love the idea of them but its hard justify them in your lists

    Or perhaps Im just bad, that is a valid question haha
    "I can easily pass this Ld 8 Panic test, my Bsb is right there!" - Famous last words

    :EoS: :OK: :VC: :WDG_bw:
  • I think they are indeed simply chaff-/pin-units but do their job sooo well. Using the forest wisely, drop three of them to chaff, even block the overrun and protect the last to be a pinning-piece is uncontested in this game imo. You simply need to make sure that the rest of your army can make use out of them. I have seen many lists that can not utilize them and sure for those they might not be a bargain. That book is full of synergies, impossible to fit them all in one list :)
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  • The book is well balanced internally imo, so not many issues to raise. My 2c would be:
    • Paired weapons on wildhorns could probably stand to go down to 1ppm, and tw+pw to 3ppm. I rarely find them worthwhile on ambush units, and paired weapon larger blocks aren’t something I see often
    • Mino paired weapons are too expensive, or gws are too cheap. To me PW are clearly the worst option given primal and battle focus take away their primary benefit.
    • Beast Axe on Minotaur characters is too expensive now that Essence is available for a better armour save more easily.


    I would suggest something on the hereditary, but even if the casting value was 0, I usually have other spells I need more and losing 1/4 of my better spells isn’t worth it...
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  • Frederick wrote:

    I think they are indeed simply chaff-/pin-units but do their job sooo well. Using the forest wisely, drop three of them to chaff, even block the overrun and protect the last to be a pinning-piece is uncontested in this game imo. You simply need to make sure that the rest of your army can make use out of them. I have seen many lists that can not utilize them and sure for those they might not be a bargain. That book is full of synergies, impossible to fit them all in one list :)

    I must greet and thank your optimism and your encouragement !

    I love this unit but, i think Briar beast are a really huge investment for an uncontrollable chaff that cannot move when they appear. Furthermore to appear, they need a forest ...

    I have to admit that I'm light years away from your level of play, but I would like to practice playing with briar beasts to make them useful in my games. Could you show me a list built to be able to play them properly ?

    Thanks to you and thanks for the help
    Casual french player who want the success of the 9th age in the whole world ;) !
  • I agree that our book in general looks really nice in regards to internal balance. The biggest issue imo is:

    1. Hereditary Spell CV should be lowered on big version (now it's ridiculous, similar value to Stone Skin!). 7+ could maybe encourage players to use it. 7+, not more.

    Other than that:

    2. I agree with @youngseward that Paired Weapons on Wildhorns are too expensive. PW are good only on high quality attacks. With regular S3 (no poison, no lethal), for cheap, ranked infantry on 25x25 bases they make not much sense, especially that with primal instinct OS4 or OS5 doesn't make much difference.

    3. I would love to see some small (even 5 pts) discounts on unpopular items like Inscribing Burin, Pillager Icon, Obscuring Fog. This could maybe open some new item combinations.


    As to Gortach price.. in current meta (hello new DE!) he looks really sad, so I won't even include it in my list ;)
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  • 1. Hereditary Spell

    The issue: we've established that the spell is situational in both of its potential uses - as panic/psychology protection and as a facilitator of the terror/fear bomb. A good indicator of how popular a hereditary spell is would be how often the mages of a faction spend the points and Arcane item slot for the Magical Heirloom. Having been probably the only BH in 2020 to do so, I can safely say that the loss of the Arcane Slot is not worth it for beasts, even in a list that is designed to function around the spell.

    In my opinion, lowering the casting value won't help that much: the few armies that really care about the spell will have a harder time against it, and the ones that didn't will simply continue not caring. As a whole, the spell will continue to be underselected.

    The solution:
    Allow the Soothsayers to *buy* the spell via a mundane item. I have no issue with paying a fixed amount of points in order to get Echoes of the Dark forest, even if it is situational. If I always had the spell in addition to my regular spell selection, then odds are that at one point I might even use it. Casting cost has nothing to do with it, really.


    2. Ambush option for Centaurs

    The issue: whether you're playing a big unit of centaurs or smaller ones, the ambush option is rarely ever seen.
    I believe that this is in part because you cannot ambush a drunk unit, and also because it actually costs points to purchase the option.

    Solution: Give the option for ambush for free. (the unit would still count towards the ambushing percentage, but there would be no other downside to having the option to ambush).

    3. Inscribing burin

    The issue: even at 30 points this item is too situational to use. Its use is tied to a certain terrain piece, whereas the obsidian rock always works for the model you want. Additionally, its price doesn't allow it to be combined on a character with a decent piece of protective gear or a second utility item.

    Solution: discount the item further, dropping its price to 20 points.

    This would put the item in direct competition with the double Aether Icon, thus increasing the probability of a player taking the risk to use it instead of the banner option.
  • Locklust wrote:

    What issues can be raised?
    Price. Unit sizes. Duplication limits. Category limits. Anything that affects list building. Spell casting value.
    Absolutely no redesigns will happen (where redesigns are things that affect how something works on the battlefield)

    Mirdhynn wrote:

    @SmithF : The solution you propose for 1) is not possible :
    "Absolutely no redesigns will happen (where redesigns are things that affect how something works on the battlefield)"

    See the bolded part. It affects list building, and it doesn't affect how the spell works on the battlefield.
    It can be argued both ways, but I think that 3 years of no use is enough to warrant a bit of creativity when it comes to interpreting the guidelines.
  • I just have one question about our hereditary.

    Seeing how the other hereditarys are...how was the process to choose this spell as ours?

    Because maybe I am wrong, but this spell has been the same since the beginning of 9th, and for all this years the 95% or more of BH players know this spell is garbage. Maybe is not allow to change it no, but has ever been possible?

    Thanks
  • What do you guys think about creating a seperate thread concerning our Hereditary?

    I could tell you the whole story about its creation and we could brainstorm a bit and share our experience. Maybe there is some undiscovered potential :D
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