FEEDBACK: Community Input for Balance Patch (HBE)

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  • FEEDBACK: Community Input for Balance Patch (HBE)

    Hi guys --

    Next piece of the balance patch process is to submit formal requests for modification. See the post below:

    The rules team wants to collect feedback on the balance patch in a structured and non overwhelming way. Our hope is that each ACS team collect a few big concerns with the balance patch related to their armybook and then forward to rules team.
    1. Who can raise concerns? Each armybook ACS team. DE and ID are excluded. These books are still beta and were outside the balance patch.
    2. How many issues can be raised?
      3 per armybook. Each concern is a single unit, a single item, a single spell etc. No combining several units into one concern (we have seen before that people bring up things like "internal balance in core"). Proposed self nerfs excluded, they are free on top.
    3. Deadline?
      January 22
    4. Format?
      Open a thread in ACS internal. Tag rules team and write 1-2 sentences per concern.
    5. What issues can be raised?
      Price. Unit sizes. Duplication limits. Category limits. Anything that affects list building. Spell casting value.
      Absolutely no redesigns will happen (where redesigns are things that affect how something works on the battlefield)


    We've prepared a set of changes we're looking at for evaluation, based on the feedback we've seen HERE and in the general HBE thread. The posts by @Furion and @Aenarion43 in particular we paid close attention to -- so thank you both! We've also pinned those two particular feedback in the internal boards to ensure others view them.


    Obviously, 3 changes isn't enough to have a direct impact one everything, but here are a few examples (subject to change) that we're looking at for consideration:


    CHARACTERS:
    • Royal Huntsman, Foot options for Prince, Commander: Suggest the following:
      • Royal Huntsman: 40 points -> (new) 20 points
      • Lion Chariot: 115 points -> (new) 135 points
    Display Spoiler


    • The foot Royal Huntsman have never seen any sort of play in the current patch, and adjusting the points of this model could create alternatives to the the Sliver Prince.
    • Appeared in zero (0.0%) of OCHO lists (and regularly rare/nonexistant in similar tournaments).
    • Change is to encourage non-Sliver Princes as alternatives to foot characters; even in a Meta where Monstrous Cav was incredibly popular (WotDG especially) this choice was still not taken.

    • High Warden of the Flame options for Prince, Commander: Suggest the following:
      • High Warden of the Flame: 90 points -> (new) 70 points
      • NOTE: The justification against this change previously was that the sum of the rules are worth more than 70 points. However, please note that with the “without a Shield” clause, Destiny’s Call is now a better option in nearly all cases, if for no other reason than because it is cheaper and does not block any on-foot characters.
    Display Spoiler

    • This option has not seen any sort of play in the current patch (after the Shield-nerf), and adjusting the points of this model could create alternatives to the only viable foot character currently, the Sliver Prince.
    • Appeared in zero (0.0%) of OCHO lists (and regularly rare/nonexistant in similar tournaments).
    • Change is to encourage non-Queen's Companion Princes as alternatives to foot characters.

    UNITS:
    • Citizen Archers: Suggest the following:
      • Citizen Archer’s starting points: 165 points -> 155 points
      • Citizen Archer’s additional points per model: 16 points -> (new) 14 points
      • NOTE: The primary reason Archers are not taken is not because the other options are inherently undercosted, it is because Archers are inherently overcosted.
    Display Spoiler

    • Strength 3 shooting that does little else has always been a challenge to balance. At current points, every other shooting unit outshoots it (including Goblins, Undead, etc.), many of which have special rules to make them more competitive.
    • Appeared in zero (0.0%) of OCHO lists (and similar tournaments).
    • Change is unlikely to have any impact on external balance but should promote alternatives to be considered.

    • Flame Wardens: Suggest the following:
      • Flame Warden’s starting points: 320 -> (new) 290 points
      • (Optional): Flame Warden's additional points per model: 27 -> 27 (revert initial balance proposal of 26 ppm)
    Display Spoiler

    • This unit seems very little to no representation and is never taken as a min-value unit. Moreover, compared to Lion Guard and Swordmasters, this unit does not synergize as well with Paths of Magic HBE have access to, nor does it inherently work well with our characters. We would rather see other unit sizes viable (such as with Temple Guard) than them only taken in rare occurrences.
    • Appeared in one (5.0%) of OCHO lists (and regularly rare/nonexistant in similar tournaments).
    • Change is likely to encourage other unit sizes to be considered, and the potential reversion of the point drop to 26 ppm will keep the unit externally balanced and costing similarly at max unit size.




    MAGIC ITEMS:
    • Protection of Dorac: Suggest the following:
      • Protection of Dorac: Models on foot only -> (new) Can not be taken by construct or models with towering presence
      • NOTE: This change could be viewed as a continuity change but will do much to help internal-balance of characters without creating any new powerhouse builds (no point changes that allow new combinations).
    Display Spoiler

    • This choice is significantly underrepresented and, because it is limited to models on foot only, means that HBE have very few options for combat characters. Moreover, because of the recent changes to Mithril Mail and Destiny’s call, we feel this is the appropriate juncture to modify this item as well as well as for continuity.
    • Appeared in two (10.0%) of OCHO lists (and similar tournaments), and only on the Sliver Prince (no other options considered).
    • Change is likely to encourage non-Sliver Princes to consider this item, encouraging other play styles as alternatives.

    • Amethyst Crystal: Suggest the following:
      • Amethyst Crystal: 60 points -> 40 points:
    Display Spoiler

    • This choice could be both thematic to HBE as an army but is currently viewed just a worse Crystal Ball, which is only 35 points.
    • Appeared in zero (0.0%) of OCHO lists (and similar tournaments). One of the most underplayed items currently in the game.
    • Change is unlikely to have any impact on external balance (as it is very similar to a common Special Item) but should promote alternative (defensive) magic phases for some players based on meta/matchups.





    Other entires we're looking at:
    • Fleet Commander: we are concerned that within the scope of these changes we could create reasonable alternatives; Royal Huntsman and/or High Warden seem to be easier fixes;
    • Sky Sloops and Sloop mounts: given the historical challenges with this, this may be too big of a hornet's nest at this point;
    • Phoenixes: this patch is suppose to reduce prevalence of single-models, hence we're looking elsewhere;
    • Min size Sea Guard: see the spoiler below:
    Display Spoiler

    OCHO Analysis for Sea Guard
    • 15x Units: 4x Represented
    • 20x Units: 3x Represented
    • 25x Units: 5x Represented
    • 30x Units: 2x Represented
    Current changes increase the min/unit sizes while keeping the max unit sizes basically the same (in conjunction with the command options). Would rather see a min unit size point decrease and a ppm increase to make large units more expensive and min-size units more competitive (or at least maintain the current variety.




    What would you guys like to see?

    If you are posting, please provide the following:

    • Entry Option - (new) Entry Option
    Display Spoiler

    • Short justification 1
    • Short justification 2
    • Short justification 3



    Thank you all!

    Kind regards,

    Axiem

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Axiem ().

  • @Axiem

    Has the possibility of a continuity change outside of this been raised internally for armies that have “on foot only” items?

    The armors across army books (excluding ID and DE as they are in Beta) that have this restriction are:
    - Protection of Dorac
    - Imperial Seal
    - Shielding Bark
    - Wrestler’s Belt
    - Mammoth Hide Cloak

    The OK items could be a concern because it’d promote cowboy use with 1+/4++ Fort and 2+/4++ Fort.

    Considering the standard size factions, it’s 3 items across the game and would be in line with the Arcane Compendium changes. It’d be useful to know if a consideration has been done for a game-wide “swap “On Foot Only” for “No Towering Presence or Construct”. Once I’m back home, I’ll write a detailed post on why I would recommend this change for the army books, as well as the 3 suggestions.
  • Aenarion43 wrote:

    @Axiem

    Has the possibility of a continuity change outside of this been raised internally for armies that have “on foot only” items?

    The armors across army books (excluding ID and DE as they are in Beta) that have this restriction are:
    - Protection of Dorac
    - Imperial Seal
    - Shielding Bark
    - Wrestler’s Belt
    - Mammoth Hide Cloak

    The OK items could be a concern because it’d promote cowboy use with 1+/4++ Fort and 2+/4++ Fort.

    Considering the standard size factions, it’s 3 items across the game and would be in line with the Arcane Compendium changes. It’d be useful to know if a consideration has been done for a game-wide “swap “On Foot Only” for “No Towering Presence or Construct”. Once I’m back home, I’ll write a detailed post on why I would recommend this change for the army books, as well as the 3 suggestions.

    Maybe the same wording could be used for the 'Kingslayer' magic weapon? On foot only is basically a death sentence for this item as its goal is to hunt enemy Characters?

    And by the way very happy with the proposed changes in the original post. Been following the conversations about the recent update and it seems like 'the brass' is listening to the given arguments, which is great!

    Cheers, Fith
  • Ancient Dragon: Suggest the following:
    • 610 points -> (new) 570 points
    • Note: The Ancient Dragon was not a popular option, and was hit by the prince chassis hike. Suggest to make a notable point dump, to enable new character setups with this option included.


    Citizen Archers: Suggest the following:
    • Citizen Archer’s additional points per model: 15 points -> (new) 14 points
    • NOTE: It is unlikely that we will see larger units of archers even after the changes to core. Suggest to shave off an additional point for additional models.


    Best regards,
  • Fithvael wrote:


    Maybe the same wording could be used for the 'Kingslayer' magic weapon? On foot only is basically a death sentence for this item as its goal is to hunt enemy Characters?

    Can you elaborate on specifically what you mean? What, precisely, would you like the wording to be: "Can not be taken by construct or models with towering presence"?

    Kind regards,

    Axiem
  • Personally for me the top 3 would be:

    1. Ancient Dragon Mount - Price: The big guy still isn't seen all to often and could probably use another adjustment. For personal reasons I would like to see at least a 30 point discount since my old character set-up using it went from 1800 pts to 1830 pts thanks to the changes to other character options.
    2. Sky Sloops - Price: I really want to use these but find they just aren't quite there yet. Maybe slight adjustment will help shake-up Naval Ordnance?
    3. Flame Wardens - Price: While their role is different from Lion Guard & Sword Masters I feel they don't quite compete with the two yet when choosing unit options for a given list. Maybe a slight decrease in starting cost and reduction to the cost of additional models to 25/model would help? (Numbers divisible by 5 are always appreciated during list building ;) )
    Cheers!

    SE Community Support

    A Sylvan Elves Homebrew Full Army Book - last updated May 10, 2021
  • Axiem wrote:

    Fithvael wrote:

    Maybe the same wording could be used for the 'Kingslayer' magic weapon? On foot only is basically a death sentence for this item as its goal is to hunt enemy Characters?
    Can you elaborate on specifically what you mean? What, precisely, would you like the wording to be: "Can not be taken by construct or models with towering presence"?

    Kind regards,

    Axiem
    Hi,

    Well yes, this basically (from your post :))would make alot of sense to me for Kingslayer aswell. The way it is now, it wont see much play in serious lists. :

    "It’d be useful to know if a consideration has been done for a game-wide “swap “On Foot Only” for “No Towering Presence or Construct" "

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Fithvael: Spelling ().

  • Young Dragon (OotFH) 300 pts

    - especially in smaller games (we play 3k alot) the OotfH dragon mage costs so much for what it brings. I would suggest at least 30 pts price decrease, maybe even 40. Or make a difference between masters and adepts?

    Ancient Dragon

    - Same as others have proposed, drop some 20/30 pts. With its huge base it is less of an issue I would say with the 'monster/avoid' lists that this patch tries to take on.


    Skysloop

    - I know there have been issues with these historically, but now they simply dont see play. A comparisson with the new DE hunting chariots springs to mind. They are seen as weak / overpriced aswell atm at 200 pts...

    - given the historic difficulties, start with a small price drop to 240? Increase price of RBT if necessary.

    Cheers, Fith
  • First of all, thanks to rule team to offer us a way to suggest modifications in this patch.

    One year and a half I play Highborn in T9A but 24 years I play them since my beginning in WFB with lots of tournament in V6-V7. Just a few tournaments in T9A.



    Today it’s obvious that Silver Prince and MCT&BSB Commander rule the vast majority of HBE lists. Rising their price more and more won't change much if we don't have something very different to play instead.




    King Slayer « 50 pts » -> « 50 pts » (no price drop) and just add « Not on model with gigantic or towering presence » or something similar.

    Note : In Ocho tournament a man played a list with Lion-guard Prince on chariot with King Slayer with success. That was something new and very interesting but the new restriction on King Slayer enabled this Character… Why this limitation ?
    If Rule Team wants to improve infantry blocks, why limiting weapons against them ? Hard to understand while Portent of Doom, a similar tool against big unit with characters, as been improve in the same patch.




    Queen’s Cavalier « 40 pts » => NEW « 30 pts » and delete limitation on Sky Sloops (« Only Sea guard Reapers may not be taken in the army »)

    In an other way the best thing to see less and less Silver Prince and MCT&BSB Commander is to improve list where they can’t be taken. This can be done by improving the Queen’s Cavalier honor. in the same way Sky Sloops models will probably see the table again.




    Gleaming Robe « Standard Height Mages only » « The wearer gains Aegis (3+) » => NEW « Cannot be taken by Mage with Order of the Fiery Heart » « The wearer gains Aegis (3+ against ranged attacks) »

    This item is… useless and far far overcosted. Let it play on a mounted Mage even on a Dragon. Do you see mounted Mages today ?
    Without the need of an infantry block to protect him, I can imagine players will choose much more Spearmen than Sea Guards.




    Highborn Lancers « 215 + 35 » => NEW « 200 + 30 »

    They never see the table actually. Core is always the same : Big unit of SG + 20 spears + 5 reavers…
    It’s not a 10 points drop on a unit of 10 that would change something… This way it’s a 40 points drop for the same unit.
    And 15 points drop on the min size cost won’t encourage people to spam them in unit of 5.




    Citizen Spears « 240 + 14 » => NEW « 250 + 12 » OR « 240 + 13 ».

    Large size units must be really encouraged in order to force players to make choice with the SG.




    Knights of Ryma « 340 + 45 » => NEW « 320 + 40 »

    Monsters and single units have been nerfed. For me Rymas were their counter. Actually they cost a lot too much when compared with similar units in other books. (Dread knights !!!) But we play them because no other entry in our book can zone as effectively as they can. If the game go into an infantry game they will have no more place in our lists.



    Hope I’ll be read (and my english understand). Thanks for all the work done !


    Wyrd
  • Ancient Dragon (Mount option):

    Suggest the Following cost 610 pts -> 570 pts
    AD was represented in 2 OCHO-lists and 0 Cinco De Wingo-lists. Not powerful before. Was nerved (at least) triple: 5pts increase to High Prince, 30 pts increase to MoCT BSB (was taken in both Ocho lists), and Kingslayer option no longer available. AD not viable also leads to model invalidation, since it can't be taken as anything else really.

    Flame Wardens:

    Suggest the Following: starting points 320 -> (new) 300 pts AND keep extra ppm at 26 ppm
    No synergy with Hereditary, really bad damage output, not a real anvil. Were kind of nice in lists with Griffon, which was nerfed heavily. Internally outclassed by competition.


    Sky Sloop:

    Suggest the Following: starting points 250 -> 240 pts
    Taken in 3 Ocho lists (lower performing) and 1 Cinco list. MoCT nerf bad for them, more Pyro expected with Pyro buff bad for them, Alchemy rearrangement bad for them, expected bigger unit sizes bad for them. Prize drop won't lead to external powerlevel going up, but might make them more valuable comparing to SGR,


    Otherwise I support @Axiem's Foot Royal Huntsman proposal.
    Don't forget to bring a towel!

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Feaynnewedd ().

  • @Axiem, @elendor_f, @Vespacian

    tagging all the ACS JiC. :P

    So first thing's first,
    finally, someone realized that saying "you have 3 issues you can address, but self nerfs count for it" is a terrible and ineffective idea. Took long enough XD

    Anyway, I'll make recommendations based on two things:
    1) I think this can see play at the right price
    2) I think this might be allowed by RT given our status in Tier 1


    K so here's the recommendations I'd make:

    Recommendation #1: Royal Huntsman
    - Decrease Current Cost, 40 points, to 20 points.
    - Reasoning: This opens up potential competition for the both the Sliver and the MoCT by giving us two things, the potential for BSB/Prince On Foot builds that can serve as anti-monster deterrents (in spears and Sword Masters) and the Chariot as a slow and not terribly maneuverable single model that can serve as anti-character and monster deterrent. If anything has the potential to compete with the MoCT, it is an acceptable Foot build that can protect our Spears and Sword Masters as well as a good "anti-character" chariot (both at the BSB and the Prince level).

    Recommendation #2: Knights of Ryma, Large Bus
    - Recommendation: Drop price of additional models from 45pt/model (Old cost) to 40pt/model (New Cost)
    - Large (9-12 models) units of Knights of Ryma are extremely rare (I recall seeing one such unit selected in a tournament in the past year). This change would put the cost of 12 knights of Ryma as equal to 25 Lion Guard. Given the greater difficulty utilizing units of knights compared to infantry, I think pricing them evenly would help promote larger units of Knights of Ryma without "breaking" the army.

    Recommendation #3: Amethyst Crystal
    - Decrease current cost (60pt) to new cost of 40 points
    - This would provide a thematic magic build to HbE in "magic denial" where by combining Crystal Ball, Amethyst Crystal, and Banner of Becalming you can mitigate, but not deny, an opponent's magic phase. It's important to view that this item is not "An item on its own", but one that requires investment in a banner in special and a second magic item slot to be effective.

    Recommendations for "Self Nerfs" outside of 3 change:
    - Increase Sliver by further 5 points. This puts it at 115. This allows the following build: Protection of Dorac, Willow's Ward, Sliver of the Blazing Dawn, Lucky Charm within 200 point allowance. This is currently considered the weakest build due to snipe spells and the fact that it's ineffective in defending your Prince against characters. This keeps all sliver builds as viable while promoting use of other characters via increasing price on Sliver and dropping it on other options.

    PS. I think the following are either things that need to be evaluated based on the meta and changes to Arcane Compendium or not really fixable within the scope of what will be allowed to a "Top Tier" army:
    - Sloops: Wait for Meta. If we shift to high armor, we may start seeing them on the table.
    - Phoenix: Single model, so yeah, unlikely to see a drop. Change to Cosmo may create a viable build for it.
    - High Warden/Fleet Officer: They'll both need much heavier points drops than will be allowed to maybe allow them to see play. TBH, I don't think the cost that will be required will be allowed on them (as FO will need to be 20 points or less and High Warden will need to be 1/2 of its current price).
    - Elite Infantry: If they are too weak, they will be adjusted later. All of them got buffed slightly in this patch on top of having the command group changes favor them. Let's see where they are.
    - Gleaming Robe: Needs a design change. It'd see play if the requirement was Wizard rather than Mage, as that would allow us to field it on an MoCT which may push them into combat roles. . . but design changes are not allowed.


    PPS. I would definitely ask RT is the possibility for a continuity change for Protection of Dorac would be possible. It would not make any changes for the On Foot Builds. However, it would make Knight characters more viable by providing and option for a 1+/4++ on characters wielding a 2 handed weapon. The Nova Flare alone appears to not be enough competition to balance out the Sliver. However, by allowing Protection of Dorac to exist in Horse mounted characters (and the only characters available would be Horse mounted and Eagle mounted, neither of which is dominating), we:
    1) Open up build potential for a type of army that is desired for HbE by the community (mounted unit heavy armies), especially if the Knights of Ryma change is taken onboard
    2) Create competition for the Sliver of the Blazing Dawn that may help create viable alternatives and control the Sliver's influence on HbE lists
    3) Maintain continuity within the Arcane Compendium (I would support this for standard size, 3HP characters in other SE and EoS, both of which have "On Foot Only" models as well).
  • That might begin to sound like a broken record but...

    Ancient Dragon

    Mount option 610 > 585

    Rational:
    • Mitigating the impact of the point increases in High Prince and MoCT.
    • Otherwise no specific argument, a single model heavy meta is bad for him, maybe the push for more battle lines will see him as appealing again.




    Flame Wardens

    Base cost 320 > 310 and additional price per model 26 > 25

    Rational:
    • A unit of 25 costs 580 pts, a unit of 25 Lemures costs 585 out of core, a unit of 25 Deep Watch costs 480, a unit of 25 Imperial Guards with shields costs 345 pts, while the performances and abilities of all these units vary highly, they all fulfill a similar role of "elite" anvils, and Flame Wardens appear expensive to all but the Lemures which are available in core
    • I like that unit, I find them to be a strong choice, I was playing them when they costed 750 pts the 25 guys with FCG and rending, but their price still feels too high compared with direct competition within the book and externally.


    Sky Sloop

    Cost 250 > 240

    Rational:
    • A 40 pts difference between 3 Sea Guard Reapers and 2 Sky Sloops is not enough and makes the Sloops nearly always outcompeted in their section
    • At 240 they felt internally balanced
  • First of all great initiative!

    Flame wardens
    Initial cost 320 -> 300ish
    • I really feel the starting cost i too big for flame wardens. They become significantly better with addition of a lot bodies so therefore that pricing structure
    Ancient dragon
    610 -> 580ish
    • This is too me the most iconic HbE model. Too sad that I see too seldom due to high price.
    Royal Huntsman on foot
    40 -> 20
    • Too expensive for what he brings. It mightnot even be enough with 20 points compared to the other 2 choices (QC and MoCT), but this is at least a step in the right direction.
  • The Changing Constant wrote:

    I would take 20 points off Protection of Dorac over 20 points off Loin guard. This would be the same net gain for the Loin Prince and also provide more diverse builds for silver characters where Destiny call has landed as the clear winner.
    Yes a Loin guard should always be a priority to protect your loin prince! Also your crown jewels!

    Sorry had to

    Display Spoiler
    not sorry 8o
    Don't forget to bring a towel!
  • 20pts drop on HWotF is nowhere near where it needs to be.

    The genie-3 wusbes rule is just stupid.

    My vote goes for 3x 5pts drop on extra eagles.
    my ETC 2019 roster
    750 - High Prince on Dragon, Dragon, Great Weapon, Obsidian Rock
    565 - Mage: Asfad Scholar, Master, Divination, Book of Meladys,
    485 - High Prince: Queen's Companion, General, Spear, Sliver of the Blazing Dawn, Destiny's Call, Longbow, Moonlight Arrows
    280 - 20x Citizen Spears, MC
    190 - 5x Elein Reavers, Bows
    662 - 27x Sea Guard, MSC, Banner of Speed
    360 - 5x Knights of Ryma, M
    180 - 3x1 Sea Guard Reaper
    663 - 21x Lion Guard, MSC, Banner of Becalming
    4500
  • IMO there is little to no reason to take the generic prince or commander, as all the honours are by default a buff.

    Why not incorporate the now under (never) used Fleet officer honour into generic prince and commander? Have them loose it if taking an honour.
    Ofc there needs to be adjustments, but the idea is sound.
    Also remove the sloop as a mount, but add the increased accuracy as an upgrade to existing sloop, just like phoenix has its upgrade.