Hereditary , have your say.

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  • Let me start with the short story of creation of our Hereditary, as I've been involved in this process.

    The idea was:

    - no combat buffs, because we have totems
    - no damage spells, because it doesn't fit the army
    - something unique, that is not covered by any available paths and totems (and flavorful!)

    At the same time the old evocation has been changed and 0 spell (similar to our hereditary, but stronger and 4+ to cast!) has been removed from the game with all other 0 spells. We thought it would be great to keep ld bombing mechanics at our disposal, especially since it's hereditary, so it's not a must to take it. It's was supposed to be more situational tool (remember, that we have totems).

    Unfortunately this spell was downgraded from original version (with AoE) and CV was set definitely too high. In addition all newest, most popular books offer a ton of Fearless units (WotG, DL, ID...).

    In the meantime (in one of the big patches) we managed to modify this spell by adding Fearless as additional effect, mainly to protect ambushers from panicking. It was the only upgrade we managed to squeeze in.

    I think the idea was good, but due to the high CV and due to the fact that the game developed in such direction, our Hereditary is sadly not very popular :(



    So that's the history. If some of you are not completely upset with it, let's brainstorm about possible usues and share our experience (maybe someone has good memories ;)).
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  • OK, thanks for telling us how was it created. Just the same question I made before imt the bh forum.
    We know is a really bad and useless spell. Everybody knows that. I would say less than the 5% of players has played it in more than one list.

    If it is known that is by far the worst hereditary of the game (because as you have said lot of armies have really high L value or are fearless), why hasn't been changed since the beginning of the 9th age proyect?

    I understand that right now is forbidden to change it. OK, fine. But before this time, when it was possible (was it possible?), why has not been changed?.

    For last, I played I play UD too, and our hereditary was changed in design because it was said (and I am OK with that) that it was too strong. Fine. But then it's said that ours cannot been improve? What a joke...

    Thanks for telling us.
  • I might be again alone here, but I find this spell super useful in matchups where LD is relevant. I admit that with evolution of powercreep in T9A LD became more and more irrelevant and this the spell weakened a bit, but still this spell can be a gamechanger in combination with Evo for example. As Kolata said: it is a H spell and you can choose to take it. You would not vs Daemons/Undead etc, but be sure any opponents with a units with ranks from ambush in flank/rear will sh#t his pants when his Generals LD is down to 8 or 7 ;).

    Making ambushing units outside the bubble fearless supports the Guerilla style of the army a lot and thus I think you have to simply play with the design and use the builds to utilize the spell :). It often will be dispelled and opens up room for other important spells as well.

    BH simply is not a straight forward no-Brainer CC army. It’s not bland and that’s good :). But I’m aware that in this game atm Full force and Spam of powerful and evtl undercosted units is the way most players go to win games. BH have a Hard time earning 20p with Guerilla style, since they will most likely have targets they cannot touch at all. But they will not lose 0 either.
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  • I think you might be alone in liking the spell :)

    Half the armies in the game don't worry about leadership too much and those that are left only have a few scenarios whereby leadership reduction is a better play then simply casting stoneskin or even spirits of the wood. Plus then you get an attribute.

    An example might an EoS great sword unit but even then... you're probably better off with stoneskin and grinding them as you're safer in combat than outside it where you can be shot.

    Fighting with ambushers is already an iffy prospect. Anything that relies on them is generally better done by buffing your forward troops instead.

    It really is the unequivocal, worst heriditary in the game.

    If rules changes aren't allowed, my recommendation is to simply pretend it doesn't exist. Drop price on GTB and pretend that's the H.
  • I don't think this spell is too bad in general. It is pretty useless against many opponents, but against others is can be okay. The problem I see is the Casting Value and range. I can imagine using it more often to make my ambushers fearless, but then it usually needs a 9. That's far too much. 4+/6+ or something like this... that would work for me.
    Then I would consider taking it more often, even against fearless armies that have have models with fear or terror themselves. A redirector who cannot flee from terror is nice. But not for this Casting Value.

    But we can change that. If we tell the rules team that this is the one thing we want to change right now, we might still see a CV reduction.
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  • Doug_L wrote:

    I think you might be alone in liking the spell :)

    Half the armies in the game don't worry about leadership too much and those that are left only have a few scenarios whereby leadership reduction is a better play then simply casting stoneskin or even spirits of the wood. Plus then you get an attribute.

    An example might an EoS great sword unit but even then... you're probably better off with stoneskin and grinding them as you're safer in combat than outside it where you can be shot.

    Fighting with ambushers is already an iffy prospect. Anything that relies on them is generally better done by buffing your forward troops instead.

    It really is the unequivocal, worst heriditary in the game.

    If rules changes aren't allowed, my recommendation is to simply pretend it doesn't exist. Drop price on GTB and pretend that's the H.
    Your post shows pretty much that you simply want BH to be played like WDG does. This book is not WDG and thus uses other strategies . The H spell is a nice supporter for many of these strategies that were taken into account when the book was created. I can tell you from experience, that these ambushers when used properly, can win you games at ETC with 20p singlehanded. Just get your Head around that this army is not about just pushing things forward to hit the enemy lines and erase them with a few dice rolls. It’s imo one of the armies that is the hardest to be played to its full potential simply. Let’s call it „noob-unfriendly“
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  • Dahou wrote:

    As Kolata say, the hereditary suffer from multiple unit/army that do not test their Dis.
    Is it possible to only add : "Effect of this spell affect ennemy unit even if they are fearless, It's an exception of the fearless rules" ?

    I like the hereditary as it is right now.
    For me, it fit with the idea that BH is a terrifying army.

    My 2 cents,
    Dahou
    Balancingwise I would like that, but I struggle with an explanation for this rule. I don't want skeletons e.g. run away in fear.
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  • arnadil wrote:

    Dahou wrote:

    As Kolata say, the hereditary suffer from multiple unit/army that do not test their Dis.
    Is it possible to only add : "Effect of this spell affect ennemy unit even if they are fearless, It's an exception of the fearless rules" ?

    I like the hereditary as it is right now.
    For me, it fit with the idea that BH is a terrifying army.

    My 2 cents,
    Dahou
    Balancingwise I would like that, but I struggle with an explanation for this rule. I don't want skeletons e.g. run away in fear.
    And why do you think skeleton can't be afraid ?
    I can give you anything that could be a good "explanation" for that, dependant of if you prefer video games, movies or roll play :)
    (for example, divinity original sin 2 have squeletton that are able to think/be afraid ... another one : zombie in movies that can "have old memories")

    First try :
    Resummoned people (zombies, squeletons etc ...) keep a part of their "old humanity". It could happen that a squeleton or a zombie "freeze" before attacking an old loved women. It never happen a lot and most of the time, the ressumoned do what he have to do (and kill her wife).
    The "echoes of the dark forest" was a primal magic that brings it back old fear of humanity (fear of dark, fear of wolf ...).

    This magic is so primal that it allow one unit to afraid anything in the world. Of the bravest to the most dead, everything know the real fear ! ;)

    But I'm not in the background team ! Is it someone from the 9th age team that know if skeleton really can't be afraid at all (in the 9th age world) ?


    For the balancing part, I don't think (if this could affect deadmen) should be game breaker.
    They always can used Dis from General, reroll from GB, and they are always more numerous than our guys.
  • Dahou wrote:

    And why do you think skeleton can't be afraid ?
    The very simple answer: because in T9A they can't. There is no other thing in this game that can make them afraid and flee. That suggests that in the world of T9A there are creatures are indead fearless. I can't see why there should be a qualitative difference between the fear of BH and their magic compared to all the other terrible things in this world.

    That is not to say that I would not appreciate a rule system where there might be a third category instead of our current binary system (fearless or not). E.g., I would prefer some units like drunken centaurs, warriors and chosen of the dark gods, and other mortal beings not to be completely fearless, but just immune to most "normal terrors". For creatures like that, I can see how our spell would affect them (and it does in case of breaking). But then there are creatures like demons or skeletons that do not even flee when severly losing a combat.
    Hence, according to everything we can deduce from background and rules, they really do not feel anything. They are simply not capable of emotions, including fear. That seems to be something very different.
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by arnadil ().

  • Frederick wrote:

    Doug_L wrote:

    I think you might be alone in liking the spell :)

    Half the armies in the game don't worry about leadership too much and those that are left only have a few scenarios whereby leadership reduction is a better play then simply casting stoneskin or even spirits of the wood. Plus then you get an attribute.

    An example might an EoS great sword unit but even then... you're probably better off with stoneskin and grinding them as you're safer in combat than outside it where you can be shot.

    Fighting with ambushers is already an iffy prospect. Anything that relies on them is generally better done by buffing your forward troops instead.

    It really is the unequivocal, worst heriditary in the game.

    If rules changes aren't allowed, my recommendation is to simply pretend it doesn't exist. Drop price on GTB and pretend that's the H.
    Your post shows pretty much that you simply want BH to be played like WDG does. This book is not WDG and thus uses other strategies . The H spell is a nice supporter for many of these strategies that were taken into account when the book was created. I can tell you from experience, that these ambushers when used properly, can win you games at ETC with 20p singlehanded. Just get your Head around that this army is not about just pushing things forward to hit the enemy lines and erase them with a few dice rolls. It’s imo one of the armies that is the hardest to be played to its full potential simply. Let’s call it „noob-unfriendly“
    Possibly in the past ambush heavy was a strong playstyle, but it has not been for quite some time. The goal posts have changed.

    For sake of argument, let's pretend the spell is free. I think it is fairly well established that players are not taking it. That is, it's out-competed by the other 4 spells in a lore, or the cost of a heirloom. But what if it was free and there was no opportunity cost to take it.

    In that case, there certainly are applications.

    The most obvious is for the using of scoring ambushers. I think we all have lost big points in a game because we had a little unit of wildhorns on the objective who then panicked or something similar. I think there applications whereby you would choose to guarantee they could not flee on a final turn or something like that.

    Now what supporting fighting ambushers. Against some armies you have an effective +2 to combat res (fear and leadership debuff), against others its only 1 but it has benefits in avoiding a fear check yourself. These units will never rear charge anything unless it's already tied in combat so let's assume they've come on the board and the other player has turned something to face to counter them. What possible targets do they have? Let's assume units of 20ish wildhorns or longhorns who are generally middling combatants, but that's what we have...

    - Anything with stomps/grinds is no good. You're better of with a stoneskin if you must charge.
    - Warmachines are somewhat irrelevant as you're not likely to lose that fight even without magic.
    - Smaller units like EoS wagons are ideal targets here but in most applications, why not just cast stoneskin? The H is 1 or 2 effective combat res, why not just prevent damage back to your unit which is often worth 1-2 and more?
    - For big ranked units that are steadfast yes, you may want that leadership debuff but... your little unit of 20 guys is going to be hard pressed to win the fight in the first place here without an additional combat buff to tip the scales

    So what about rear charging something... which generally requires something in the front to pin it. In that case, why not just cast the H on the front charging unit? You get the same CR benefit but at shorter ranger. So, what sorts of units would you have in the front? Chariot lords, gortachs etc. these are typical and these are useful targets of the H spell.

    So this is what I find funny. It's a spell in theory designed to help ambushers but it actually helps our single models most - especially the chariot lord. Now it doesn't out-compete the usual suite of druidism spells but if it were free, I would most likely cast it to help my chariot lord break something, with additional use in keeping my scoring ambushers on the board in a later turn.

    So this is why I also find your WoDG comment funny... because that's how WoDG play! That is the army of lateral movement, high speed, and high punch monsters/characters...but limited steadfast breaking tools. I'm not arguing they would choose it (hellfire is a great spell) but if it were free, WoDG players would likely find better use of it than BH players.

    So, in all seriousness, here is what I would suggest if the intention is actually to help ambushers to make the spell more picked.

    - BH is a bubble army. It plays best within 12". So why not go all in to mitigate bubble play for an ambusher? In addition to the spell giving fearless, fear etc... also give it auto-pass primal fury and/or movement buff (like your razorchariot) so it fully mimics the effects of the bubble for your ambushers? Or...

    - My main complaint with the spell is that's benefit is small and generally out-competed by combat buffs. So what if it were more like the UD hereditary? That is, reduce its benefit and allow it to tag along with a stoneskin at appropriate increased CV? We often need to buff those ambushers in the first place so they can actually win a fight... but what if we could do that and also remove their usual leadership weakness? Now that might be useful.
  • I Hounestly never used it before. In the end i always swap it for something else. Tomorrow a play a friendly game vs KoE, and i am daubting to give it a go.
    my list is basically a "smash in the face" list but with the jabbers i see some scenergy. I will have problems with breaking steadfast and maybe our hereditary can help. First i whas thinking of spirits of the Woods to help me out on this, but some of his units have woodland stride. On the other hand most of his troops are fearless and the knights of forlorn even get +1 to hit on a unit with this spell on it. So not shure yet. What do you guys think?

    His list:
    Damsel [310pts]: Barded Warhorse [40pts], Divination, Unarmoured, Wizard Adept [75pts]
    . Special Equipment [75pts]: °Book of Arcane Mastery (not on Wizard Master) [75pts]

    Damsel [455pts]: Druidism, Equitan Unicorn [85pts], Unarmoured, Wizard Master [225pts]
    . Special Equipment [25pts]: Wafers of Penitence [25pts]

    Duke [715pts]: Army General, Heavy Armour, Hippogriff [200pts], Lance [20pts], Might [100pts], Shield [10pts]
    . Grail Oath [45pts]: Grail Oath
    . Special Equipment [185pts]: Fortress of Faith [60pts], Supernatural Dexterity [25pts], °Crusader's Salvation [100pts]

    Paladin [315pts]: Battle Standard Bearer [50pts], Heavy Armour, Piety [55pts], Shield [10pts]
    . Questing Oath [40pts]: Questing Oath
    . Special Equipment [35pts]: 2x Aether Icon [20pts], Willow's Ward (only on Foot) [15pts]

    Knights Aspirant [235pts]: 5x Knight Aspirant [165pts], Musician [10pts]

    Knights of the Realm [677pts]: Banner of the Last Charge [110pts], Champion [10pts], 12x Knight of the Realm [564pts], Musician [10pts], Standard Bearer [10pts]

    Peasant Bowmen [230pts]: Crossbow (4+) [48pts], Musician [10pts], 16x Peasant Bowman [112pts]

    Special [1,563pts]

    Knights Forlorn [673pts]: Banner of Speed [50pts], Champion [10pts], 29x Knight Forlorn [638pts], Musician [10pts], Standard Bearer [10pts]

    Knights of the Grail [640pts]: Champion [10pts], 8x Knight of the Grail [656pts], Musician [10pts], Standard Bearer [10pts]

    Scorpion [120pts]

    Yeoman Outriders [130pts]: Throwing Weapons (5+), 5x Yeoman Outrider [50pts]

    My list;

    Minotaur Warlord [685pts]: Army General, Light Armour, Paired Weapons [30pts]
    . Special Equipment [165pts]: Crown of Horns [25pts], Destiny's Call (not on Construct or Towering Presence) [70pts], Potion of Swiftness [20pts], Touch of Greatness [50pts]

    Minotaur Warlord [645pts]: Light Armour, Shield [10pts]
    . Special Equipment [145pts]: Dusk Forged [55pts], Essence of Mithril (not on Construct or Towering Presence) [50pts], King Slayer (only on Foot) [40pts]

    Soothsayer [455pts]: Druidism, Unarmoured, Wizard Master [225pts]
    . Special Equipment [70pts]: Seed of the Dark Forest [70pts]

    Feral Hounds (Core) [104pts]: 8x Feral Hound [64pts]

    Feral Hounds (Core) [104pts]: 8x Feral Hound [64pts]

    Raiding Chariot (Core) [325pts]: 3x Raiding Chariot [315pts]

    Wildhorn Herd [209pts]: Musician [10pts], Shield, 22x Wildhorn [154pts]

    Wildhorn Herd [160pts]: Musician [10pts], Shield, 15x Wildhorn [105pts]

    Minotaurs [450pts]: Champion [10pts], Great Weapon [40pts], 5x Minotaur [400pts], Musician [10pts]

    Minotaurs [470pts]: Champion [10pts], Great Weapon [40pts], 5x Minotaur [400pts], Musician [10pts]
    . Totem Bearer [20pts]: Gnarled Hide Totem

    Beast Giant [290pts]

    Jabberwock [300pts]

    Jabberwock [300pts]
  • Doug_L wrote:

    Frederick wrote:

    Doug_L wrote:

    I think you might be alone in liking the spell :)

    Half the armies in the game don't worry about leadership too much and those that are left only have a few scenarios whereby leadership reduction is a better play then simply casting stoneskin or even spirits of the wood. Plus then you get an attribute.

    An example might an EoS great sword unit but even then... you're probably better off with stoneskin and grinding them as you're safer in combat than outside it where you can be shot.

    Fighting with ambushers is already an iffy prospect. Anything that relies on them is generally better done by buffing your forward troops instead.

    It really is the unequivocal, worst heriditary in the game.

    If rules changes aren't allowed, my recommendation is to simply pretend it doesn't exist. Drop price on GTB and pretend that's the H.
    Your post shows pretty much that you simply want BH to be played like WDG does. This book is not WDG and thus uses other strategies . The H spell is a nice supporter for many of these strategies that were taken into account when the book was created. I can tell you from experience, that these ambushers when used properly, can win you games at ETC with 20p singlehanded. Just get your Head around that this army is not about just pushing things forward to hit the enemy lines and erase them with a few dice rolls. It’s imo one of the armies that is the hardest to be played to its full potential simply. Let’s call it „noob-unfriendly“
    Possibly in the past ambush heavy was a strong playstyle, but it has not been for quite some time. The goal posts have changed.
    For sake of argument, let's pretend the spell is free. I think it is fairly well established that players are not taking it. That is, it's out-competed by the other 4 spells in a lore, or the cost of a heirloom. But what if it was free and there was no opportunity cost to take it.

    In that case, there certainly are applications.

    The most obvious is for the using of scoring ambushers. I think we all have lost big points in a game because we had a little unit of wildhorns on the objective who then panicked or something similar. I think there applications whereby you would choose to guarantee they could not flee on a final turn or something like that.

    Now what supporting fighting ambushers. Against some armies you have an effective +2 to combat res (fear and leadership debuff), against others its only 1 but it has benefits in avoiding a fear check yourself. These units will never rear charge anything unless it's already tied in combat so let's assume they've come on the board and the other player has turned something to face to counter them. What possible targets do they have? Let's assume units of 20ish wildhorns or longhorns who are generally middling combatants, but that's what we have...

    - Anything with stomps/grinds is no good. You're better of with a stoneskin if you must charge.
    - Warmachines are somewhat irrelevant as you're not likely to lose that fight even without magic.
    - Smaller units like EoS wagons are ideal targets here but in most applications, why not just cast stoneskin? The H is 1 or 2 effective combat res, why not just prevent damage back to your unit which is often worth 1-2 and more?
    - For big ranked units that are steadfast yes, you may want that leadership debuff but... your little unit of 20 guys is going to be hard pressed to win the fight in the first place here without an additional combat buff to tip the scales

    So what about rear charging something... which generally requires something in the front to pin it. In that case, why not just cast the H on the front charging unit? You get the same CR benefit but at shorter ranger. So, what sorts of units would you have in the front? Chariot lords, gortachs etc. these are typical and these are useful targets of the H spell.

    So this is what I find funny. It's a spell in theory designed to help ambushers but it actually helps our single models most - especially the chariot lord. Now it doesn't out-compete the usual suite of druidism spells but if it were free, I would most likely cast it to help my chariot lord break something, with additional use in keeping my scoring ambushers on the board in a later turn.

    So this is why I also find your WoDG comment funny... because that's how WoDG play! That is the army of lateral movement, high speed, and high punch monsters/characters...but limited steadfast breaking tools. I'm not arguing they would choose it (hellfire is a great spell) but if it were free, WoDG players would likely find better use of it than BH players.

    So, in all seriousness, here is what I would suggest if the intention is actually to help ambushers to make the spell more picked.

    - BH is a bubble army. It plays best within 12". So why not go all in to mitigate bubble play for an ambusher? In addition to the spell giving fearless, fear etc... also give it auto-pass primal fury and/or movement buff (like your razorchariot) so it fully mimics the effects of the bubble for your ambushers? Or...

    - My main complaint with the spell is that's benefit is small and generally out-competed by combat buffs. So what if it were more like the UD hereditary? That is, reduce its benefit and allow it to tag along with a stoneskin at appropriate increased CV? We often need to buff those ambushers in the first place so they can actually win a fight... but what if we could do that and also remove their usual leadership weakness? Now that might be useful.
    the spell was not designed to help ambushers at all. It did not have the fearless-thingy from the start. It was added to make it more versatile and that worked well to help (as you said) several parts of our army. Jabber, Briars ... practically anything that can get easiely into positions that have a support-role can utilize it. I btw. fully agree that the CV is way too high, but i assume we are talking design here :)

    Imo the only thing that one can complain about with this spell is, that it is not useful against LD-immune armies (for fearless alone i´d most likely not take it as well unless my chosen path really is sh#t against the army as well). But look at other stuff you invest in like the free Fireball for the Ogre-Shaman-upgrade. You will not be happy to have it when you face KoE or high-AS-armies in general (or certain ID/HE-builds where fire is literally ignored).
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