Pinned DE General Discussion

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  • DE General Discussion

    Citizens of Dathen!

    Here is the place to speak your mind about any topic concerning our glorious troops, the unrivaled Daeb culture, and many other things. While your message is most certainly not offtopic here, be advised that there is are specialized forum threads for some more in-depth and specific discussion. The following list of specialized topics will be continously updated:
    Be advised: In certain specific cases a posting you make might be moved into one of those threads or moved from one of those threads into this one here, if the topic is better represented in another thread. Additionally the Judicators have a keener eye in the specialized topic threads for offtopic, so please keep the threads focused. If you have any questions, feel free to ask for help contacting your local ACS Legate.

    Happy discussing

    Your ACS team
    @GSbasic @KiRaHyuU @DarkSky

    Tool Support Battle Scribe

    DE Community Support


    My blog with battle reports and painting gallery: bleaklegion.wordpress.com/

    The post was edited 3 times, last by DarkSky ().

  • @Klaudel Yes, we are still in Alpha. A lot of things are discussed right now, and feedback from battle reports, tournaments, etc. is collected. Writing your feedback in the overall feedback thread is the best way to make an impact.

    Generally: In Alpha the wiggle room for design changes is still considerable. Point changes may be drastic. In Beta the room for design changes becomes lower, but isn't closed, yet. Point changes can still be huge, but should continuously get smaller. Most books had Beta 1, Beta 2 and Beta 3, before reaching Gold Status. Naturally the amount of changes between Beta 3 and Gold should be really low.

    After reaching Gold, the normal balancing process kicks in. Usually this means: 0 design changes. Limitation/duplication changes very rarely. Point changes based on tier list and internal balance.

    I will see, if I can get an official statement on the Alpha Process from the RT.

    Tool Support Battle Scribe

    DE Community Support


    My blog with battle reports and painting gallery: bleaklegion.wordpress.com/
  • I was looking at the Blackmane Pegasus and find something missing. Compared with the Elven Horse and the Plains Raptor, I find it expensive to give just a flying motion. The 2 add 2 to the armor. For combat, the Plains Raptor is preferable in my opinion. For movement and protection, the Elven Horse will be more preferred by the community. I don't particularly want a reduction in points but more flavor for this pegasus which is a magnificent and iconic figure of the army.

    By the way, light troops are no longer used because the characters no longer have access to shooting weapons.

    Edit : It is true that it also brings an R4, which is not negligible!
  • @Khadath

    Regarding the Pegasus, I have been messing around with a build of an occultism warlock on a Pegasus in an acolyte unit. One of the obstacles with occultism is the short range, low survivability of wizards, and the high opportunity cost of the old occultism dragon with the addition of not a leader. What we need then are three things: low cost, mobility, and defense.

    One of the obstacles with the horse is the lack of light troops so the warlock ends up more often then nought either hindering tools you paid for or being in a unit that really wants to see heavy combat such as dread knights, which isn’t really what you want.

    With the recent patch, we are now able to field destiny’s call on a Pegasus. Destiny’s call is a strong armor for occultism because hand of glory bumps us up to a 3++. Occultism is also a great choice for the acolytes because hand of glory is arguably one of the best spells on that unit and breath of corruption covers their obvious weakness to armor. Furthermore, every spell in occultism can be cast while in combat. So Pegasus, occultism, and acolytes have a stellar relationship in my opinion. When getting shot at, it does take occasional hits following the rules for different base sizes in a single unit. I don’t think this is so bad though when considering what we gain. Once we hit the mid to late game we can pop the Pegasus out of the unit and continue as normal. What I’m currently messing with is Warlock Outcast, Blades of darag, light armor, destiny’s call, Pegasus. Comes out to 530 pts.
  • Ok, As the update is pending so soon I will have to join with my late book owervue feel.
    I hoped to get more games first.

    First and foremost, big, BIG thanks to the team for bringing a great LAB. Since first spoilers came to be they gained my trust in the team. The announced direction was great. I couldnt wait for the new book to come to be. You dindn't disapoint :)

    I have to admit that due to Covid I was only able to play 8 games with the new book so far. Didn’t test plenty of things (yet). I will go trough the whole book, giving my thoughts on the them and marking if they have seen battlefield time.

    The rules + Armoury + Hereditary.
    Display Spoiler
    Academy Training.
    As a MSU player by heart I love this rule. It gives 3 great benefits. Best out of those 3 is incorporating the old medusa rule alowing to capitilize on combo charges to break steadfast. Lowering the rank bonus is good as it boosts up the chance to win combat and lets our small units feel beefier in terms of overcoming the enemy when working togheter. Its also awesome against VS, as its lowers their LD bonus from Safety in numbers.
    +1 advance on the Charge gives a bit more chances to make it in with the multiple charges . its still worse that the old miaximised rule from the altar.

    All combined A++

    Hunting Bolas
    A nice return with this situational rule. It still might be difference between catching a fleeing unit in the last turn or not. It might be crucial in case of a fleeing tarpit unit, as there is nothing worse than to be blocked by the same unit again. Te distribution between units is nice and flaverfull.

    Scent of Blood
    A upgrade over the old rule. Helps our realy slow units out which was neded even before we got the drops in resilience. Stil its worse than the old Mximised charge rule.

    Ruthles efficency and Aritstry of Death
    Army defining rules arround which the whole book is built. It benefits or low str infantry the most, as high strenght attacks got more from old Killer instict.I like it. Without it the infantry was lacklustre - this was one of the reasons it played only arround an Altar in V3. A++


    Armoury:
    Kraken Hide –Mixed feelings. It seems to promote the on foot characters. But I don’t seem it as impactfull. I have to admit I was never a fan of on foot characters and KH dosent change that.

    Reapeater Crossbow – At first I hated it, but after some field test I consider this as one of the best designs in the book. Not only it convinced me to field Auxiliaries unit, but also to agressivly march them forward. This weapon alows us to put a lot of pressure on slow blocks and chaff. Ammounts of shoots balances the terrible range and lack of AP.

    Reapeater Handbow – Awesome design, rewards getting close and boosts the AP the Rxbow’s lack. If only DR had it instead of crossbows

    Blades of Darag – I like they give magical attacks. However not fan of the rest of the design. always potrait the Dread Elves as the Hex faction. This weapon dosent work well with 2 out of 3 lores we get on the master chassis. It promotes deathstar like builds and forcing pushing for multiple bufs on one unit. Its bad for MSU builds (you won’t be able to provide enough bufs in a multicombat and only auras are from the Div Legate. This forces some picks taken togheter as almoast autoincludes.

    Hereditary Spell
    It looks better on paper than in practice (from the several games I’ve used it in.This spell has had a big influene in only one of the battles againsta VS, When its melted a unit of Rat at Arms with the Thrauma master inside)
    Problem with this spell its usally hits back bunkers which are cheap taarpits, where the loses are not realy felt by the oposing player.
    Than maybe better to cast it on warmachine or big shooting blocks, one would think, – correct – with 24” range and loss of wandering Familiar puts the mage at huge risk and agains good zooning is impossible. It also has mediocre influance when run with the monster lists (Which Im running ATM)
    The best use of it is in CC as it swings the Combat resault by a margin – which alows a MSU unit to stick or to win a combat insted of a draw. Still I prefer to buff my unit to just win CC in old fashion way.
    If I would change something about it – it would be the range.


    Items:
    Display Spoiler

    Weapons enchantments
    Cripling frost, quite expensive – better to be good. You read the rule – it is good. The character becomes a duel monster, high agility, high offensive (It looks natural choice for a Dread Prince). However, after seeing it has to be on a GW its feels like an overkill. It gives the chassis a monstrous sttrnght denying us +1 to hit. The bigest offender is the fact that out of a duel it gives little/ no benefit. I would see this weapon as a Hand weapon enchantment with maybe lethal strike on top. In the current form I’ll skip it.

    Lacerating TouchI love this weapon. It allows for blender Builds, give fear on top which combines perfetcly with Mask of the War Crow. Wich Paired weapons its just tasty. The bigest drawback is no possability to give it to the oracle, making the CC build non existent. For me its a natural weapon for a Temple Legate. A+.

    TranscendenceLoss of lethal strike is a hit, also only as a lance enchantment its pretty restricted. This combined with loss of resilience on the most popular mounts put its use in question. Its still good, but I think it might see a price drop in the future to compansate for worse mounts.

    Mastery of sloughter – This item looks awesome. A spear enchantment is a perfect one to convince me to a foot character. Rule is great as not only, it alows to win CC’s by a huge margin by stacking CR. It gives grind potential on top. This combined with academy rules give a good chance to break the oponent fast. Hoverver this is restricted to one only hero in the book with 3 attacks what explains the low price. As I saw from the fluff explanation i get it – but atm I see the Legion Legate build underwhelimg. Still need to prove it.

    Pride of Gar Daecos - Denies the shield lowering our defensive potential, Still the divine attacks are worth the price. I like it, but I think there are better choices.

    Armours
    Seal of the republicgreat item. Glad it stayed.

    Banners:
    Executioner Icon – Great one, pushing for MMU play. If I wouldn’t go for MSU this one would be an autopick on Dread Legionaires Block for me (This combined with the mask and Temple legate with Lacerating touch- for a grinding powerhouse).

    Eye of the Gorgonbest one in the book so far. Reroling discipline tests boots our options to break the oponent even if only winning by small margin. In some way it feels like an anti BSB counter. Petrifing stare is a cherry on top – as it can by itself provide extra Combat resailt. This item is A+. The only drawback I found is lack of a good build to carry it – I’ve tried the Legion Legate on Matcore and a unit of Dread Kights. Bots I found to squishy (Legate BSB cannot afford enough protection, and DK are just squishy)

    Academy BannerI dont like it. It’s a bit awkward as the only benefit it gives to academy units is alowing other units to work with them. This promotes Deathstar play and looks natural on Temple militiants.

    Artefacts:
    Molhirs Mirror:Its only 15 points over the Arcane compednium equivalent, and it gives a fun rule. I like it, however its not something wpuld I consider great.

    Mask of the War Crow – My favourite item in the book. It gives us back Killer instict and not only this, it works for our monsters. The killer insticts is the thing I miss the most of the book. This item gives it back – conditionaly so seems well balanced A++

    Cainrans Gambit – I like the spell choice, However I don’t like it restriction to only a Wizard. Temple legates want to be kitted for CC. So the only choice is the Warlock Outcast.
    I think there are better items for him. I don't like the T9A bound spell mechanic in genral and find it weak. This is however a topic for another discussion. Fact that iresistible will works with it dosen’t change that.

    Ring of the 9th Legion – This item makes a mastery of sloughter build a bit more compelling. Pushing MMU Dread Legionaires as an option. Also makes Judicators terryffing. For MSU it seems not worth it.

    Ring of the Obsidian Thrones – My second favourite item. After first reading I thought its overpowered. Hoverwer after delving into character builds I struggled to find a place for it. It’s an awesome Anty Deathstar/ Cowboy item. I found it a autoinclude on the Dragon build also potentialy usefull on the Legon legate and Oracle builds. I thinkthe oracle one is to strong as it combines with -1 to hit. AA++.

    Beast master whistle – Item design is nice and flaverfull. Hoverwer I found it to be deadweight item. Its grants you a better chance to make it with short charges. For the long ones, most of the time are done only to force a Panic check. Most of the times its better to just march up instead. I think it might see a price drop in the future.


    Characters, Mounts, potential and favourite builds
    Display Spoiler

    Characters:

    First I love the specialization aspect of this section it helped balancing the entries within theuir given roles). The only glitch I have is that by choosing a mage Master level character we are forced into 3 characters to field the general and a BSB. This has to be take into account with the character pricing, which from a external balance point off vue might seem to cheap for what they bring.

    Dread Prince
    The Fighter. The statline is great, its a vast improvment over the Bland 2.0 Prince. Modification in Offensive and Defensive skill are a great choice and give the feel to this character. The selling point is 5 attacks. Riposte is a cherry on the cake and allow do some extra damage. He restricted in choosing mounts and it feels right.
    I think you will seem him mostly mounted, so he can be brought fast where his needed to bring pain to the enemy. The best mount for him is an Elven Horse in my opinion.

    Possible builds:
    (All arround) Heroes heart, Dursk Forged, Basalt infusion , Horse or Raptor Chariot

    (Blender) Paired weapons, Lacerating Touch, Ghostly guard, Death cheater, Horse

    (Duelist), GW, Cripling frost, Potion of spead, Molhirs mirror, Horse

    (Duelist), GW, Cripling frost, Death cheater. Horse or on foot.

    (Duelist on foot) Cripling frost, Potion of spead, Destinys Call.

    I didn’t test him, but played against one nad he felt to cheap for his damage potential. Still this should be our trait. I dont like the on foot versions as you have to push a full battleine into oponnets throat to be able to corner him and get combats you want. He can go into a Raptor Knight unit or Acolytes. Even Dark Riders can offer a temporary protection before he charges out.

    Please note apart from the Arcane compendium items we lack Aegis Defences and 5+ is just a gmable for a R3/ 3 wound character.


    Beast master.
    „My precious”. I love his design. He's something in between the old Dread Prince and Captain character. His Off and Deff are quite low – but they are still good enough against what he might face. The best thing is that he has 4 attacks alowing for combat build to be reckong with.
    Apart from the statline, hes got the old beastmaster rules (missing the rerrols to hit) but incorpotating the old Beastmaster Lash. Hes an awesome commbat support Hybrid. He helps our monsters to stick into combat where they can Thunderstomp hell out off the oponent. One can even take im in a monsterless builds as the minimised for stmops help our infantry to break enemy monster by statick CR. The same alows for a build to counte monstrous Cav/ Monster Covboys. He offers so many options!
    Hes got all the Mount options you could Imagine. I tried him on horse in a raptor unit and On a Dragon. This guy on Dargon is my favourite build from the book. We got get a good Dragon build without a staple price of 900+ points. Its feels overpowered, but please note usally he will be forced to be a genral unless you want to go without a BSB or a Master Wizard.


    Possible Builds:
    (Blender) Paired Weapons, Heroes Heart, Mask of the War Crow, Ghostly Guard, Horse.

    (All arround /Blender) Heroes Heart, Basalt infusion, Mask of the War Crow, Horse,

    (Dargon - My love) Paired Weapons, Hearoes heart, Ring of the Obsydian Thrones, Mask of the war Crow, Dragon.

    (Dragon – alternates) replace Mask of the War Crow with Beastmaster whistle or Obsydian Rock or plain Lucky charm.

    I found I struggled to find a second character build mobile enough to keep the mask arround the dragon so It ended on the Dragon.


    Legion Legate– If you go with 2 expensive characters this might be your only option for a BSB. Hes our only option to get a BSB with Towering presence. He has got nice offensive and defenssive but skill "only„ 3 attacks.. Stil hes very cheap. He has academy training, which for some reason is better when he show off on a Mount arroudt the troops than leading them. There are only 2 items which make him usefull inside his subordinates units from the academy.In We end with 3 builds, on foot with one of the said items , on foot naked (Gen or a BSB, or finally a Cowboy build.
    If you want to give raptor chariots a go – this is your guy. Beeing academy he befeits from +1 to charge and this combined with Scent of blood allows for and adv 9” chariots. More than this if you join 2 of those guys to one norma chariot you get a semi deathstar, which can even break steadfast/ be steadfast. Want to go even further = put a Banner of speed on them or the Eye of the gorgon.
    Same Academy Benefits help with the Manticore builds (Academy + Scent of blood, tasty).

    Possible Builds:

    (Judicators cheerleader) Ring of the 9th Legion combined with Academy Banner on the Judicators.
    We all know whot rerols to hit and Battle focus means (shoutout to Minotaurs… you will taste your own medicine now).

    (Spear Build) Spear, Mastery of sloughter, Ring of the 9th legion or Seal of the Republic or Mithril

    (Naked) Underwear and a BSB or if general only undearwear.

    (Support) Any of the awesome support artifacts (Mask, Ring of the Obsydsian Thrones or even some Binding scrolls)

    (General all inlcusive) On foot, Spear, Mastery of sloughter, Seal of the Republic, Ring of the 9th legion.

    (Chariot discount deathstar) 2x same builds with lance and shield, one with Alchemist alloy, one with Basalt on Raptor Chariots. Can add BSB and Magical Banner.

    (Chariot sort of anvil) Dursk Forged, Basalt Infusion, Potion of strenght, BSB, Chariot – I’ve run him in 3 games and I liked him. With LD 10 he can stick even if loosing by static. Has eneough S4 attacks to blend tartpits and hits hard on the charge. Perfect Pin alowing Monster and Hammers to get to the enemy. Also hes realy resilient against small arms fire.

    (Manticore Build) Lance, Shield, Basalt Infusion, Molhirs Mirror or Just Death cheater, Manticore.

    (Manticore, Gorgon Delivery system), Lance, Shield, Basalt infusion, Eye of the Gorgon, Lucky Charm. I used him in 3 games, hes ok but I found him to squishy (and hes one of the toughtest we have….)

    At the end I want to mention hes only way to get LD 10 on our troops. I dont like him to take weapon enchantments as they are better on another chassis most of the time . Hes 3 base attacks are not good enough.

    Temple Legate– Oh Boy. A caster with 3 attacks and BF and 4++ in CC. All in one. And Can be
    a BSB on top . At first I discounted him wanting to test the Legion Legate extensivly first. So tests are only ahead of me. I like a inclusion of a second caster most of the time to allow a more flexible magic phase. Apart from Acolites its the only Adept option and the only one with Alchemy and Divination paths which were superrior choice on our master lever casters in 2.0.
    I disliked that after bulding list with this hero, the paart of the list jus build itself arround him (or more like arround the blades of Darag). The Oracle in some way Forces you to one big unit of temple militians. This build allowed us to have a tarpit in core which was is small powerhouse on its own. This combined with Academy and/or Rending Banner, Supressing Fire allowed to build a Deathstar.
    The War smith I found as an inferior of the two (in case of bulding a deathstar) and him alone looked as a waste of potential as I plan to not run him without the Temple militiants.

    Possbile Builds:

    (Deathstar leader) Oracle. BSB, Academy Banner, Miithril (Militants with Rending)

    (Deathstar leader, Tarpit ) Oracle, BSB, Mithril, Ring of obsydian Thrones (Miltants with Academy)

    (Deathstar Leader) Oracle, BSB Mask of the War Crow, Mthrill. (With effigy of dred somwhere near)

    (My test Build), War smith, Paired Weapons, lacerating Touch, Mithrill.

    (Old Adept Build), War smith, BSB, Book of Arcane mastery, 2x Aether Icons


    Warlock OutcastI really like his design. It allows for agressive magic phases. The not a leader is a big drawback – but the price and Iressistible will compansates (remember about the triangle rule I mention on the beginning). Loss of Alchemy and Divination dosent bother me personally as for a long time I’ma Cosmology fan. (A toolbox lore). Loss of familair puts the Occultism lore into question. Espexialy so this chassis has no possability for paired weapons exluding lacerating touch. This could mimic our moraec reaping builds seen on the dragon in V2.0. sadly its not the case. Witchraft is boosted with the irresistible will as this lore is more a one trick pony spell. Either you get the spell you need or its not impactfull. As the risk of miscast went up I see a sceptre of power as great deterrent, also alowing to boost a spell you need giving some control on the risk of miscast.

    Possible Builds:

    Talisman of the void, Sceptre of Power (Tsted, and stays for now)
    (on foot) Talisman of the void Magical Heirloom (Tested, I didnt like the Hereditary)

    (on foot) Talisman of the void, Canraigs Gambit

    (Peg) Mithrill, Molhirs mirror, Dragonfire Gem or Obsydian Rock (Here lacerating touch would be perfect. Same on a Dragon Build)



    Silent Assasin– I like him a lot. Everything in the desing is great. The only thing hes missing is honourles. The Assasin gives a constant threat and its awesome with the MSU apprach. Not only he can deal with light characters, he gives small units more hitting power. On the other side we have so many awesome synergies in other character choices that I couldn't find a place for him.


    Mounts:

    Elven Horsea go to choice. +2 ARM, Good mobility. Still no LT. But I understand why its not there.

    Raptor– as a hero mount - a tradoff of mobility for some bigger punch. still mobility is better than a bit better hitting power so the horse is most of the time a better choice. Also raptor seems a bit overpriced.
    Abaout the statline, Agi 3 i nice, as its Lethal strike, both fit the image. Scent of blood is better, but as mentioned before its worse that the old Maximised rule we had from the altar. Altogheter with the Resilience loss I think the Raptors are much worse in comparison to the old ones. This means that the price for the character mounts is a bit puzzling.

    Pegasus – a terrible mount which got some help in the change with Essensce of Mithrill. Its not fast, not resilient enough. At the same time its not cheap enough when compared to a Manticore. The only benefit over the latter is possability to join units. It dosent help agains cannons and other „big hit wapeons”, but does a lot agains maggic misslies and light shooting. Agains tbolt throwers one could work with cover (Join peg to a Black cloack unit which is behind infantry = Hard Cover). Still on foot version dosent have to risk any of it…so why bother? Occultims maybe. Im not convinced.

    Manticoreinternaly is not bad, its the only way to get a R5 character, and a TP BSB. Lethel strike is a aprieciated addition, but Scent of blood is the better of the 2 new rules. Externally comparing it to a HBE Griffon its end just pale. For 20 pts more they have a a chasis with LR, AP3 and additonal attack and AP on the charge.
    Extrordinary speciemen – Either the Upgrade or the Base seems overpcied, Also its sad thatyou cannot fit a Big Manticore with a Dragon and 2x Krakens.

    Dragon– addition of scent blood gives a great flaveou to this mount (Still its worse than the old Yema version). The Dragon wouldnt be so great if it wouldnt be for the sum of parts of Beastmaster and his winged reptile.


    Core
    Display Spoiler
    Dread Legionaires – My favourite Core unit. Works great as MSU and MMU. In build AP and FieR with good pricing. I wouldn’t change a thing about them. Academy Rules work great with them.

    Legion Axiliaries – I wont say I didnt try to field Auxyliaires in 2.0, but found them underwhelming as I suppose most of their users. I didn’t believe you could design them to work combined with even lower range. Even after I first saw theier profile I was uninpressed. How wrong I was! There are many factors which make this unit great, and loosing even one of them you turned it arround.
    Academy rules - they can benefit other units and also hold ground due to those rules. This combined with in build parry and SS makes them awesome agains intended targets. In case of no suitable targets they can doube duty as a tarpit.
    Rxbow rules with March and shoot and aim 3+. This is changing a bit the feel of the unit instead of standing back and hope for some wounds they go close and personal about it. It feels very Dread Elfy.
    Suppresing Volley – I find it to situational and was able to make it once in 8 games. Still its an awesome synergy if you manage to use it. I dont mind that it looks awkward that a unit is looking like shooting 2nd time in a turn. They had been extensivly tested.

    Raiding Partya light troops mage bunker is always nice. Those units can double duty as cheap chaff – the problem isthey are not mobile enough most of the time to be good chaff.
    Beast brakers – I like Hatred benefit for Harnessed (so it work not only on our monster but all mountsincluding the dragon). I dont like that its a Devastating charge effect, I would prefer it to work like the old beastmaster rule equivalent in 2.0. I found I dont like to make long charges with my Monster most of the time so I wouldnt use their benefit when keeping them back as a bunker
    Corsairs – Worse unit in the book. Forced to take almoast uslees throwing weapons and cunting for riders makes this unit unatractive. The special benefit as very unlikely to achive No academy bosts), no enough mogility. They look like a antichaff toll not good enough at it.
    Regarding both: Still as I find Academy troops generaly better I didnt find place for them.

    Temple MilitansBlades of Darag and BF are the defining thing about this unit. This is a Burst damage unit, which can be built as tarpit. They are a MMU/ Deathstart choice as beeing frealres and deependant on magic support makes them a miss in a MSU setup. Genraly a like them but I dont like how the synergies are focring list building arround them. I played only against them. They feel very strong.

    Schadow Riders (8 strong) – By forcing Bigger units in core they lost the chaff only purpose and we pushed into harraser terittory. Since 6ed as another game I walways felt them as such and was a bit disspaointed by there overall use in T9A. The Rxbow just always looked as a harassing weapon by design. Mendatory shields are great and hunting bolas just make them even better.
    I use an unit of 8 since the start and I love them.


    In General: We dont have a good chaff unit in core anymore. This pushes our points from special to have units fielding this role. Wouldnt an optionto make Corsair Vanguard field the missing role in core be possible? Counting towards riders is just a no go. They try to compete with Shadow Riders with Crossbows/ Legion Auxyliaires and Raven Cloacks.They just dont bring anything special to chose them over the latter.


    Special
    Display Spoiler

    Shadow Riders (less than 8 strong)
    They are a dedicated chaff unit. As long as other armies won't get this standard included I always will fell we were been thrown under the wagon. they Core option compansates a bit. I see them taken only as a naked 5 man unit solely for chaff pourposes. genraly pushing our dedicated chaff into a a only special choice (core light troops are not mobile enough) dosent help our Block Elite infantry. (I only run them as a core option)

    Warlock Acolytes
    I see them used as a MSU harasser/ flanker or a Deathstart unit (Blades of Darag pushthem into this direction). I do not like designs which are hit or miss depending on the magic phase. Its also hard to rpoperly balance the cost as the value you get from them is hard to evaluate and. Genraly I like them, but I'm agains Deathstars buuilds in general - and it seems they would excel in this role more.
    Conclave has a great spells to synergise with the Blades of Darag (again pushing them ino more favourble deathstar) and theu are the only reliable option to deliver our hereditary into back rank targets like warmachines.
    (I didnt battle test them yet)

    Dread Knights
    General:
    Knights, we got a unconditional second attack which is a huge buff. Not only it frees the Banner slot allowing for other builds. It also boost our grinding potential. On the other hand drop in Res balances it out. Personally I fell tha this and loss of Killer instinct makes them worse at grinding. This was the desingn decision and its fine. Raptors seem to be buffed but with loss of altar buffs is not compansated by the scent of blood enough.I find the indepandece of the unit still good change and feels refereshing - but is it the case? Reliance on Altar was weighting havely over our old book....They dont get any Academy Beneifts, for which I was hoping for as the Academy them was supposed to be the grinding theme.
    I will need to break the options down into 2 significant parts. first beeing the lance (as the price gap between the lance and the Hw option is so small thay I consider lances as an autoinclude) and the the GW option. Lance is straghforward, The GW changes their role drasticly. With Agi 6 and 2 attacks they become charge independant, they can be used as monster hunters or as a better armoured Judicators alternative. The comparison between Judicators and GW raptors migh give an indication if Armour and mobility or more wounds is a better defence.

    So - do I find them as good as the ones before the LAB - I don't. The biggest asset that the old DK brought was Hitting power with reliability and resiliance. The problem lies in them not benefiting as much from the Ruthless efficency as they did from Killer insticts. The options is to get it back. Unless you want to Run a cavarly cowboy the ammount off points one has sink to get it back makes it questonable. We are already hard pressed in the hero department. (best contender for this role i a Dread Prince with the mask). The other option is the Altar. I tried a Beastmaster with the mask and I didn like him. This brings this unit to a Deathstar design to get most of it as you need bodies to protect the Hero from range pressure. They also are so expensive in comparison to their survivability for a a MSU apprach.

    I've run unit of 6 FCG, Lances , Unit of 7 with Lances, FCG and Banner od spead, Unit of 7 with FCG and Eye of the Gorgon. I think they are Ok. But without a Babysitter points in the list I dropped them to test other options. Player in our area used 10 Raptors with speed and Dread Prince inside and he enjoyed this unit.
    Maybe they will be back in my lists and I hope I will regain excitment when thinking about them.


    Obsydian Guard
    A clear MSU design. Not only they lost fearless which made the a lot more tactically flexible, they also alow MSU to play wider, especialy with mediocre TP BSB option. Even before the LAB they had a great satline ant this didn't change. Ruthles efficenty helps them tremendously. For sure I will test them in the future in a MSU setup. Retaining Agi 6 is also very important on them. Academy rules are just an awesome upgrade and they for sure have a place now.


    Judicators
    I've already touched them a bit with Dread Knights analysys. I like them. the cost is so low that one might think they are overpowered, but on the same time they are so easy to kill that its terrifing a potential use. I think they are better as a 24+ Block as they have trnemendous grind potential and the extra bodies can offset the Agi 5 which is in many cases not high enough. The build with battle focus looks like a dream setum and for sure I will test it.
    I could consider them in a MSU build with min blocks of 10, scroing darts with a punch agains single models. I like them but if they go up in cost they wont be so popular. So they are perfect as they are now.

    Harpies
    Our prevoiusly deicated chaff, they are cheap enough to compete with shadow riders. they have same mobility with flight but without Vanguard. they are more loke a later chaff - than "push in the face army firs unit chaff." The got a boos in St 4 so they can finally try to kill a warmachine especialy with high advance rate and scent of bloon on top. I don't undersand the decision to give them def 2. Bigger size in the test proved them to be better as the can withstannd some punitshment ans still be usefull to chaff. I like them.

    Gorgons
    Perfect design of a glass canon. they hit rearly hard (Ruthles + LR) , but are so expnsive per wound it can be a deterrent. I think that a 3 model unit is the best option. Single models are to squishy and give points to easly, at the same time beeing not mobile enough to serve a chaff. They can be still a good support for corner charges along our infantry blocks.

    I dind't test them, but played against them and the blitarated a Kraken in 1 turn, after which they shoot off the boad by 8 Schadow riders and shadow cloacks.

    Thunder Pack
    they compete with our Raptor chariots as Impact platform. they offer simillar comparison to the raptor chariots in many scnarios as the R od point/W compansate for worse Arm. I find them realy intresting. they can be used cas min units as a Terror batteries, units of 4 as most efficient to get most of the impact hits or Big units. The grinding potential is simillar to the chariots and the stomp give and edge to this unit. Theyi size alow them to screen our infantry agains Volley fire wepaons.
    However all of this is charge dependant as you coun the impact hits it. scent of blood again is not good enough and the chassis is to slow. also they seem to slow for a gott screenning unit.
    Fun fact is that this unit does not count to Menagerie.
    I think they need min Twaeks and I'm building one unit of 4 to test it in the future.


    Raptor Chariot
    I will state it from the start - its overpriced. We los the crossbows and R5 trading it for additial attack on each crewman. the raptors have the same issues as decribed in mounts and Drad Knights section. The lethal strike and scent of lbood are a nice addition - but still they are worse that they were. We already go a cap on the in addition - therfore I think they need a price adjustment. Note than in this case same goes for the Thunder Pack.

    Divine Altar
    First of all I love the fact that we cannot take it as a mount anymore. This alowed the team to design a compelling character in its place and drop the dependanncy on the buff from the altar. A++
    Cruicble of sloughter - it lost a lot of its punch and also dropped the aegis save to 5+ (this is a good direction as the ammount of 4++ in the armies IMO should be reserved for characters) trading it for one additional wound and lower price. It lost impact hits. this combined with loosing attacks from the altar itseld was to much for this War platform. It's now takin a space of 15 models offering only 9 attacks. Taking impact hits (and to note also an option to get maximised charges) was to much. The -1 res rule is quite falvorfull but its another build pushin it into a deathstar territory. the only build i like with it seems to be a Dread Separs Deathstar with Battle focus and either Exec Icon or Rending. This possibly with a LL all inclusive build.

    The effigy of dread - Despite beeing immobile I like it better, solely for the 3 veill tokens it provides. Aura making a grea combo with mask of the war crow is for sure nothin to sneeze at. Therfore it works with all outr possible builds. Problem is Im so repulsed by the altar model (I like my altar look) but want him to get some time off. (I didn't tes it yet)


    Riders
    Display Spoiler

    Raven Cloacks. May second faourite unit in the book. The design of the repeater Handbow, it puts a high risk and reward on the weapon which combined with posion and AP1 makes them exceptional. But this is not all. Their price ans scout deplotment allows them to be used as chaff and they are the least expensive one option. They have all the on foot chaff neds - they start closer to the oponent and have tools to Harass oponents chaff. They double duty as mosnter hunters and got bollas on top. They fel like special ops unit. Unit design A+.

    The only glitch is possability to still deploy them in big units promoting avoidance playstyle which was not supposed to be an option. With the actuall limit its still possible.


    Destroyers

    Display Spoiler

    Hunting Chariot - It changed role from a monster/ Gyrocopter hunter into a Cowboy hunter. I like hunter bolas and this is where things I like end. 1 Shot even with AP 10 is even more unreliable than with the old design. Str 6 was already annoying with old bolt throwers. This entry needs help or a signifficant price drop.

    Reapeater Battery - When I firs saw the design I didn't like it. It changed the role of this weapons from the ones I loved the old bolt throwers to fulfill. We lost the long range pressure against warmachines and early game long range chaff clearers. (Range its just to low) Than I thought what the move and fire posabilities offred and against armies with low ranged pressure they look overpowered on paper. They also looke like a perfect firemagnets weapons getting pressure off our advancing troops. As when they finally got in range they damage potential would be signifficat - this force the oponent with a tough choice - neutralise the advancing bolt throwers or allow them to bring pain. This is a role I can embrace. They also allow to create some pull potential forcing oponent to you.
    They have big drawback as they have to be kept safe from charges (which wouldnt be possible with longer range) threatning some overruns which can be catastrophic to a battleline. Against strong ranged pressure they are just lost - the question is if the attention they get compansates they "uselesness".
    After I saw the price I couldnt believe my eyes. I would never expect them to be higher priced than the old design. I thought abaout 130 -150 points max . This ment I just ignored them entirely in list building. I plan to test them in the next game still.
    I've played once against 3 of them, I felt the mindgame pressure for sure. Still they were underwhelming (I've killed one turn 1) and forced the other 2 off them to constantly walk away or they would get charged - this lowerd their accuracy signifantly. My own test will tell. I see the potential. The price can be worked on later.


    Menagerie

    Display Spoiler

    Kraken:
    I liked the old Kraken a lot. New one lost Poison and point of AP. Gaining hatred against Large (Intended targets). HE still has MW and on top got Coastal predator rule. Its awesome both fluffwise as on the battlefield - it gives more significance to terrain which schould be taken as expample in the future designs (Kudos!). With the new rule Kraken became conditionaly an awesome zooning tool. and he retained most of the usefulness I've loved him for before for - dealing with Monstrous infantry and threatning cowboys.
    Colossal Kraken - a puzzling upgrade as for a bigger frontage (and less survivability due to this) we gain very little. I tought only of 2 benfits - longer zonning potential as the base is bigger and overrun clipping units potential. None of them seems to be worth this change.
    I rune a Double Kraken list atm - and I like them.

    Hydra:
    Since I saw the spolers I wanted to test the new Hydra bringin two off them for my first 4 games. The practice showed their flaws.
    First the design - I like it alot as I mentioned, it looks fun, gives a character to this beast which was bland in the previus iteration. I liked the change of the breath weapon as this makes it uesfull agains cav, units (something out mosnters were always terrible at). They are still terible but at least Hydra has something in the arsenal. Regaining wounds is great, still very condtional. Rage was a bulseye. Pison makes it more allround- as it alows it to fight against other beasts. And this brings us to the drawbacks.
    Agi 3 in conjunction with rage is drawback, especialy that the chassis lost 2 of the base Hydra attacks. while I can understend lower defensive (to alow us to absorb more wounds and increase our dammage potential) the lower offensive is just a plain nerf. Going further I found 5+ fortitude to be too unreliable even with the regen on top. Regain wounds does not ease this feeling. This costed me the Hydra in CC's I thought she (it?) should handle (I had only one CC in which Hydra did better than excpected). The feeling when you are finally on 4-5 wounds and charge something- than hitting on 4 you fluff and die was a terrible feeling. This cinvinced me to swap them out for the Krakens which are just more stable - maybe its a playstyle choice.

    Mist Leviathan - I like the fluff rationale, which connects us with the See/ Pirate theme at the same time. statline - its fighting stats are very weak locking it into a support role. The best of his rules is the increase chance not to be force to choose the side as starting is mostt of the time a must for our army. However this micght chnage in the future with new map pack. The +4 March combined with the previus rule is great for Infantry heavty builds (all of them). For the Big units it alows to gain terrain and close the gap putting more pressure fater. For the MSU is aloows for flanking manouvers and also to get more table space. (This is important with MSU facing Deatstar like builds with rhe double flee tactics.
    Fun fuct than in the testing most of those mentioned above rules didnt come into play (once I was able to force my opnent to choose sides due to Leviathan rules, and only twice I used the +4 march rule.
    I found this beast most usefull as cover for my units (hiding my manticore BSB behind him) and as Terror "bot", it also did really well in numerous combats due to Thunderstomp. This coupled with 8 R5 wound made him realy durable. Heck I was more happy with his performance than the Hydras.. but this is also part of the expectations which were a lot lower for the leviathan.. With all of this said - hes use apart from beeing an obstacle is situational and might be felt as a deadweight.
    If a Redesign is possible be possible to change him to an Aura efect turn on each turn (like std infantry + 4 March/ std infantry maximized charges/ enemy shooting weapons in 8" -1 to Aim) - he would do all hes doing now but have also relevant effects later?
    If not and price has to stay maybe better to give him a bit better CC statline by changin 2D3 attacks into 2D3 Grinds?
    I think he migh see a price decrease (-20 points?) or even some kind of redesign.


    Im finally finnished - thanks for the patience as this is a wall of text.

    The post was edited 24 times, last by LeXincerta ().

  • Hey guys, I just figure out how to move and copy posts. Call me 1337 HackZ0r! Anyway, posts like the one from @LeXincerta are perfect for our feedback thread so I copied it there. If you have such an overall feedback to make, do not hesitate to post in the feedback thread as well. It is the one from which your dear ACS will gather the feedback and distill hot topics upwards to the team.

    @MountainBuns The Peg + Acolytes idea is very creative. I haven't thought about this at all, sounds very cool.

    BTW: After over two years of painting exclusively Titanforge Dragon Empire models for my EoS army, I switched to paint a Raptor Chariot with variable crew models and have a new idea for basing my army. I am so looking forward to get vaccinated (hurry up already!) and be able to play again in summer!

    Tool Support Battle Scribe

    DE Community Support


    My blog with battle reports and painting gallery: bleaklegion.wordpress.com/
  • @Stolb55

    If you want something similar to old altar, you can take effigy of dread + mask of the war crow for infantry/cavalry MSU for a 6” bubble of rerolling 1s on wound. If you play twin towers or monster mash, lacerating touch + mask of the war crow would give fear and reroll 1s on wound to two units and to whatever beasties you have that have fear (thunder pack on charge, gorgons, krakens, hydras, manticores, mist leviathans). So long as they are within 6” to the mask.

    It would be the same combination as our previous book (reroll 1 on wound and +1 to wound)

    The post was edited 1 time, last by MountainBuns ().

  • @MountainBuns
    Note that thunder pack don't have fear, even in charge (terror don't grant fear - the fact it's in devastating charge make the unit vulnerable to terror while using it).

    What do you call twin tower ? we don't have the possibility to take 2 altars.

    That said, I personally see little use of the new mobile altar as it is designed to be the less impactful possible with the initial model (60x100 base with warplatform) : his power level is about the 15 models he move, and the bonus is about the same as a rending banner, slightly better, but with a drawback. So, it may be interesting if you plan to play a big unit like 20+ guards or 30+ legionaries (so you have more ranks than 25/40 models), but then the drawback is you die more in CC, so in general, I prefer adding adding models (which will also attack instead of the average attacks of the crew).
    The bonus may be useful if your army struggle with high Res, but with +1 to wound and 3 paths granting spells to give bonus to wound, it's not the most common problem (we can also talk of the blades of Darag here).
    Note : the drawback is mitigated when your opponent bring a lot of Str 5+, having Res 2 in CC is then not a problem, but at this point it's tailoring list.
    The model lack something (affecting Dis (friend or foe), special attacks (even if it's just normal, but non-elven, attacks from an avatar) or magic/shooting), and I don't thinks it's the best chassis to have an inbuilt drawback (a banner or other special item is more appropriate). I would also prefer if it can be used outside an unit, even if I understand the choice made here.
    :UD_bw: :SE_bw:

    Strider (Open Terrain)

    I hold no truth except mine. And I'm not sure about this last one.
  • Thanks @Minidudul! For some reason I thought fear was nested in terror. Thanks for helping me out.

    By twin towers I meant twin large blocks of RaF. Although thinking now about it that was a bad name for it :D I was thinking more lord of the rings with the twin towers being the two seats of power for the hosts of darkness, hence two large raf blocks.
  • Stolb55 wrote:

    Hi all!
    Does anyone tried to use a new Altar ?
    The “ -1 to Res” looks as a quite powerful thing, but frankly, I am not sure how to play new Altar now.
    Is there any chance to get the previous altar version back to book ( ofc with significant points increase) ?
    I think the Crucible has some merits. But its either a MSU option or a Deathstar option. It helps our infantry best to deal against monstrous R5 infantry infantry without relying on Monsters.

    MSU option:
    Take Beast brakers as a unit you want to loose ASAP to alow altar to go on its own. It might be good in combocharges, but you have to watch out as it can be broken easly.
    (Edit: Beast brakes are not possbile as the altar has to be deployed in a scoring unit).

    Deathstar Build - you want cheapest bodies possible so you stick it into Legionaries 8 wide with either rending Banner or Executioners Icon. You couple it with the Legion Legate with the Ring of the 9th legion and mastery of sloughter. I think this build might be fun.

    The effigy has more use IMO, Channel 3 helps a lot with heavy magic dependant builds (blades of darag) and alows the mentioned combo with Mask of the war Crow.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by LeXincerta ().