Pinned DE General Discussion

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  • And also a little thinking

    All army’s has defense and offense. The ratio between them are “the agresiveness”, the way they attack or defend is imho “the spirit” the DE has the spirit of attack through table control and superior movement skills (DR, harpies, for table control and breaking units with estable charge range) the “rushem all, front load charges and rolling dices” seems more Orc than DE imho.

    also in defense they are spirit, always you will take damage, how you manage this damage is different, you can manage it through active defenses (movement, and lateral movement) or passive defenses (high saves, high numbers) imho the DE should manage this damage with ONLY active defenses (imho this is the most difficulty side of the DE in my mind). The problem with the current book is we lost all of our active defenses being slow and losing the table control (DR, harpies and fast heroes (pegasus)nerf mainly) so this is why is RPS. All or nothing, just try to do a balanced army with DE, always underperform on the paper, giving only the rush option, the RPS option. I don’t know how you design the armys but imho the DE seems designed reversed of the way to do, just think about “the spirit” and the way an army will attack and defense and later fill the gaps with units,

    and yes, I don’t care if I lost all the +1 to wound, if I take back some of table control in exchange. This movement and table control was the “fun part” of DE and his spirit.

    what army do you think when you think in a “fast melee oriented” army? SE?? Seriously??
  • Slayer Zabojcow wrote:

    Memnite wrote:

    To be fair, if corsairs were 4+ would anyone use them? Their special rule is 'meh' i dont see it necessary. If they had vangaurd we would return to vanguard_throwingweapon_4+ guys, that was usable. Might as well keep them 5+ and give them vanguard, would be fair.

    Or as mentioned here Distracting and a 6+ light armour + vanguard? That would be cool also.
    Distracting and 6+ save? So even more auto-lose against shooting and auto-win in melee? Great idea :)
    Still. If the team would like to push us more in the infantry playstyle, it would be very thematic to give Vanguard to the corsairs ofering us a chaff unit in core.
  • Girien wrote:

    And also a little thinking

    All army’s has defense and offense. The ratio between them are “the agresiveness”, the way they attack or defend is imho “the spirit” the DE has the spirit of attack through table control and superior movement skills (DR, harpies, for table control and breaking units with estable charge range) the “rushem all, front load charges and rolling dices” seems more Orc than DE imho.

    also in defense they are spirit, always you will take damage, how you manage this damage is different, you can manage it through active defenses (movement, and lateral movement) or passive defenses (high saves, high numbers) imho the DE should manage this damage with ONLY active defenses (imho this is the most difficulty side of the DE in my mind). The problem with the current book is we lost all of our active defenses being slow and losing the table control (DR, harpies and fast heroes (pegasus)nerf mainly) so this is why is RPS. All or nothing, just try to do a balanced army with DE, always underperform on the paper, giving only the rush option, the RPS option. I don’t know how you design the armys but imho the DE seems designed reversed of the way to do, just think about “the spirit” and the way an army will attack and defense and later fill the gaps with units,

    and yes, I don’t care if I lost all the +1 to wound, if I take back some of table control in exchange. This movement and table control was the “fun part” of DE and his spirit.

    what army do you think when you think in a “fast melee oriented” army? SE?? Seriously??
    I have the impression that with the change from slim to LAB alpha, DE lost some of their passive defense (altar, Res4, kraken hide), while maintaining their active defense. This step seems somehow valid.

    And they also gained some additional offensive capabilities, increasing their price, reducing their body count, further reducing their passive defensive. This step might have been a bit too far imho.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by arwaker ().

  • arwaker wrote:

    I have the impression that with the change from slim to LAB alpha, DE lost some of their passive defense (altar, Res4, kraken hide), while maintaining their active defense.
    Yes, we lost passive defense, but not only on pasive:
    • Dark raiders not in core
    • Pegasus in a bad spot
    • Shooting range (yes, it was common to target some enemy shooting units)
    • Swiftstride
    So with active and passive debuffs it's too much IMO

    Like I said before, I prefer active than passive, because IMO is the essence of the DE background

    The post was edited 1 time, last by athalow ().

  • Thematical vanguard or ambush on corsairs would fit. Question is, how to implement it with the guideline restrictions. Perhaps even limit it to 0-1 and some 15-20 models in total. There is no dedicatet fleet theme any more in the army, so having a charakter trigger it seems wrong to me.

    In my opinion the kraken hide is a wasted opportunity. If it would give +2 armor on foot, it would be a reason to field on foot charakters. There is limited access to it already.
    Corsairs on foot could either just have the 4+ armor. (had it all the time in the past too) or just take away light armor on top if it realy is too much. Corsairs also lost scoring, so will propably not make the bulk of core units in any army.
  • Honeym wrote:

    Is it perhaps too much to have a boltthrower being able to move and shoot?
    It already can do that!? Range 36" would be absolutely bonkers and against all goals of reducing range of DE so they need to close in. The book generally awards you benefits if you get close and dirty, not staying at max range and poking the enemy from afar (we leave those cowardly tactics to the Sylvan Elves).

    Also it is was easier to communicate if you use the proper unit names so people actually know what you are talking about. Not everybody knows what "Bolt Thrower" would be, especially when @Memnite just above you talks of the Hunting Chariot as "Boltthrowing Chariot".

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  • echoCTRL wrote:

    arwaker wrote:

    Girien wrote:

    And also a little thinking

    All army’s has defense and offense. The ratio between them are “the agresiveness”, the way they attack or defend is imho “the spirit” the DE has the spirit of attack through table control and superior movement skills (DR, harpies, for table control and breaking units with estable charge range) the “rushem all, front load charges and rolling dices” seems more Orc than DE imho.

    also in defense they are spirit, always you will take damage, how you manage this damage is different, you can manage it through active defenses (movement, and lateral movement) or passive defenses (high saves, high numbers) imho the DE should manage this damage with ONLY active defenses (imho this is the most difficulty side of the DE in my mind). The problem with the current book is we lost all of our active defenses being slow and losing the table control (DR, harpies and fast heroes (pegasus)nerf mainly) so this is why is RPS. All or nothing, just try to do a balanced army with DE, always underperform on the paper, giving only the rush option, the RPS option. I don’t know how you design the armys but imho the DE seems designed reversed of the way to do, just think about “the spirit” and the way an army will attack and defense and later fill the gaps with units,

    and yes, I don’t care if I lost all the +1 to wound, if I take back some of table control in exchange. This movement and table control was the “fun part” of DE and his spirit.

    what army do you think when you think in a “fast melee oriented” army? SE?? Seriously??
    I have the impression that with the change from slim to LAB alpha, DE lost some of their passive defense (altar, Res4, kraken hide), while maintaining their active defense. This step seems somehow valid.And they also gained some additional offensive capabilities, increasing their price, reducing their body count, further reducing their passive defensive. This step might have been a bit too far imho.
    most units are cheaper.
    and thats why im saying we are more "Orcs" than DE, also the +1 to charge range seems like the Waaagh to me.

    In Slim we are Bubble Elves with altar Stone more "EoS" style, that was wrong (I leave the game for 3 years for this reason only returning when the Alpha spoilers began)
    In Alpha we are cheap fat elves more "OG" style, and also that was wrong. And I will leaving for this reason.
  • Repeater Auxiliaries 250 vs 230 -> -20
    dark riders 160 vs 175 -> +15
    spears 170 vs 200 -> +30
    corsairs 155 vs 170 -> +15
    militants 275 vs 265 -> -10
    medusa -> 125 vs 160 -> +35
    warlocks -> 225 vs 210 -> -15
    arpies 168 vs 160 -> -8
    og -190 vs 220 -> +30
    executioners 210 vs 200 -> -10
    dread knigths 235 vs 285 -> +50

    with that, I don't think points are important now, but essecencially we are not cheaper than before.

    I repeat, IMO this is NOT IMPORTANT now, only to answer the body count
  • And also about the "MSU" oriented we had rules to better perform in multiple charges, is ok, but not solves how we can do this charges. This is the problem, If I perform a GOOD multi-charge I don't need the academy bonuses, I need TOOLS to perform this multi-charge and I haven't. This is why the loss of Dancers and the switftstride hits my lists a lot, now without swiftstride if I perform a multi-charge of 3-4 units I haven't any "Dispersion control" of the dices, increasing the possibility of a bad roll on the charges making a lost match. Yes we had the +1Adv of academy but:

    1.- They are in the units that not need it.
    2.- Has a lot of dispersion. I need some stability.


    (For example I perform a multi-charge of a spear elves in front, with a judicators/OG from the flank and also a LL on manticore to a unit of OK with heroes, making the spear elves blocks the Heroes, the OG making casualties and the LL Challenging) OG needs a 5, Spears 6 and the LL is auto), I roll a 6 with the spears but the OG rolls a 4 = I loss the match, and the worst is, is not "bad luck" if I perform a multiple charge PROBABLY some of the units doesn't charge, we need some control of this dices while we did with the "Swiftstride" buff before).

    This also is worst because of the ranged shooting lost (we lost BT and the worst: Direct Damage Spells) the best way to block a multi-charge is chaffing a single unit if in this example the OK blocks the OG, the multi-charge are totally blocked, because I need this unit to perform his job. Before I manage that with the BT or with the Occultism + Familiar, now I CANT kill the chaff before the enemy uses it.
  • arwaker wrote:

    increasing their price, reducing their body count, further reducing their passive defensive.
    You really think this is the general trend?

    Just comparing RnF infantry old slim and Alpha 2:
    • Legionnaires got Academy Training and Ruthless Efficiency for Killer Instint: 170/12 → 200/14.
    • Auxiliaries calculating from 15 with shields: 250/15 → 230/13
    • Blades of Nabh/Temple Militants: 275/17 → 265/16
    • Tower/Obsidian Guard: 190/23 → 220/20 (even at 20 models)
    • Judicators: 210/23 → 200/20
    • I don't think it makes sense to compare old and new Corsairs, because one is an RnF and the other light troops. The costs for Raven Cloaks are basically less dependent on bodies and more on their shooting capabilities.
    So we have one unit that got more expensive, but this unit also received massive rule buffs. Auxiliaries changed very much, and are stronger in close combat, but also got cheaper. Elite infantry got significantly cheaper in large units. Exception is small units of OG, which is understandable, as their Will of the Senate rule is equally efficient on small units.

    I would say on the core units providing "bodies" we got cheaper overall and the cheapest of those got more expensive, but also stronger by quite a large bit.

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  • One thing about the "fast" part of design :
    Fast will always be in comparison.
    Elves, in this game and previous warhammer edition, were quite fast in general (not just DE), especially V6 when I started.
    But the whole game also changed, including more cavalry, fast infantry (able to fight in CC), more large unit (with adv 5"+, now it's more 6"+), large cavalry (adv 7"+), and a lot of monsters (adv 6"+ + swiftstride). While elves did not evolve a lot in this direction (but they still did).
    So, there is this past of growing speed-creep we have to deal with now. As Adv 4" infantry is no more the average, a lot of strong unit/threat are 6"+, elves with adv 5" and cavalry with 7" means we're finally more normal than fast.
    I'm personally more for make the armies slower (less monsters with adv 6-7", less cav with 8"+, less large with 6"+ (including ogre). But I'm quite sure this won't happen. So I feel legitimate to make the DE at least "a little faster than average" instead of average or less for a true elf feeling (actual HBE are faster with cav, banner, monsters ; SE are faster excluding trees and more if including lateral movement and special deployment).

    Also, it seem a good trade with combat prowess for managing the actual RPS part of the army (very good at killing but no range protection). As Girien stated it help creating a kind of "active" play.

    And if we have too much lateral movement, we have LT to drop of thunder beast, warlock acolyte (an unit for our horse character), drop leviathan, reduce move of harpies, etc.
    If we have too much ranged protection replace Divination for Thauma, remove HT from Kraken (definitly our monster have all the elves can dream of).
    :DE: :UD_bw:

    Devastating Charge (Scout)

    Fortitude(2+,against Flaming)

    I hold no truth except mine. And I'm not sure about this last one.
  • athalow wrote:



    warlocks -> 225 vs 210 -> -15 (And lost the strider + 10/20 mov option of yema, also lost the Occultism Grave calls and Toxic Breath, now perse are worst, but much better when buffed... I prefer the older ones for stability but im ok with this change, just saying)
    arpies 168 vs 160 -> -8 (No, 135 vs 160 +25p, also I preffer the 5 size unit because you can fit in the 1" between units when charging. also lost the 10/20 to 10/18 so again, we lost table control, more sized, more slow, worst in all cases)
  • arwaker wrote:

    Girien wrote:

    And also a little thinking


    The problem with the current book is we lost all of our active defenses being slow and losing the table control (DR, harpies and fast heroes (pegasus)nerf mainly) so this is why is RPS.
    I have the impression that with the change from slim to LAB alpha, DE lost some of their passive defense (altar, Res4, kraken hide), while maintaining their active defense. This step seems somehow valid.
    Just left the part of the quotes I want to write about.
    @Girien gave the examples what DE lost as active defences. You simply claim the active defences were still there, and from that premise you simply conclude that it was a valid way using those active defences.
    Could you please tell us what active defences are still there, and what additional active defences were brought to replace the ones that were lost?
    Otherwise I don't see proof of your claim that "while maintaining their active defense. This step seems somehow valid."
  • Minidudul wrote:

    One thing about the "fast" part of design :
    Fast will always be in comparison.
    Elves, in this game and previous warhammer edition, were quite fast in general (not just DE), especially V6 when I started.
    But the whole game also changed, including more cavalry, fast infantry (able to fight in CC), more large unit (with adv 5"+, now it's more 6"+), large cavalry (adv 7"+), and a lot of monsters (adv 6"+ + swiftstride). While elves did not evolve a lot in this direction (but they still did).
    So, there is this past of growing speed-creep we have to deal with now. As Adv 4" infantry is no more the average, a lot of strong unit/threat are 6"+, elves with adv 5" and cavalry with 7" means we're finally more normal than fast.
    I'm personally more for make the armies slower (less monsters with adv 6-7", less cav with 8"+, less large with 6"+ (including ogre). But I'm quite sure this won't happen. So I feel legitimate to make the DE at least "a little faster than average" instead of average or less for a true elf feeling (actual HBE are faster with cav, banner, monsters ; SE are faster excluding trees and more if including lateral movement and special deployment).

    The Fast is not Avd/March attribute, Swiftstride, lateral movement and the main "fast" conception: the Army composition, you can make an army that can advance while controlling the table? currently not, for example.
    Bretons are fast while having peasants with Adv4... because the had stable charge range, high movement and a cheap disposable peasants to sacrifice (the DE must not do that, is only an example) or remove the enemy chaff

    DE in 6th were a very fast army while having the slowest heavy cavalry of all the game (has 2 banners to help this, blood + shadow) saying the elves are fast by having Adv5 is ejem... better I shut up..


    Also, it seem a good trade with combat prowess for managing the actual RPS part of the army (very good at killing but no range protection). As Girien stated it help creating a kind of "active" play.

    And if we have too much lateral movement, we have LT to drop of thunder beast, warlock acolyte (an unit for our horse character), drop leviathan, reduce move of harpies, etc.


    They are lateral movement and LATERAL MOVEMENT, imho, a High March rate + lateral movement (Warlocks acolytes) plays SO DIFERENT than a Low March Rate + lateral movement (Cows, Corsairs...) the second ones uses the lateral movement as mainly defensive option, evading the combat (SE Spirit as I said before) while the first ones uses the lateral movement to get a better charge position. And the most important increasing the table control, making the enemy slow his advance to cover that position.


    Just see how the players use the units, cows for countercharging, corsairs to be the mage bunker evading the combat. While the Warlock acolytes are a thread and the DR are a pressure unit, same with the old pegasus, a expensive and high threat unit with high lateral movement.


    The lateral movement uses and effectiveness is directly related to the March attributte.

    And about the Red Text I marc. If you put a horse character in the warlocks unit, YOU LOST the lateral movement, because WE HAVENT OPTIONS to make a LT Character.


    If we have too much ranged protection replace Divination for Thauma, remove HT from Kraken (definitly our monster have all the elves can dream of).
  • athalow wrote:

    Repeater Auxiliaries 250 vs 230 -> -20
    dark riders 160 vs 175 -> +15
    spears 170 vs 200 -> +30
    corsairs 155 vs 170 -> +15
    militants 275 vs 265 -> -10
    medusa -> 125 vs 160 -> +35
    warlocks -> 225 vs 210 -> -15
    arpies 168 vs 160 -> -8
    og -190 vs 220 -> +30
    executioners 210 vs 200 -> -10
    dread knigths 235 vs 285 -> +50

    with that, I don't think points are important now, but essecencially we are not cheaper than before.

    I repeat, IMO this is NOT IMPORTANT now, only to answer the body count

    This isnt fair in some places.

    Auxiliaries were 260, more with shields
    Corsairs are completely different.
    OG are the same at 20 bodies, cheaper higher and more expensive lower.
    Judicators are cheaper above min size, so way cheaper at MMU sizes.
    Knights have the banner thrown in so are down 5pts from 305 to 300.

    Harpies, DR and Medusas are a lot more pricey. As are spears. But at least spears will be adjusted if required.
    Free command groups for standard infantry
  • Minidudul wrote:

    One thing about the "fast" part of design :
    Fast will always be in comparison.
    Elves, in this game and previous warhammer edition, were quite fast in general (not just DE), especially V6 when I started.
    But the whole game also changed, including more cavalry, fast infantry (able to fight in CC), more large unit (with adv 5"+, now it's more 6"+), large cavalry (adv 7"+), and a lot of monsters (adv 6"+ + swiftstride). While elves did not evolve a lot in this direction (but they still did).
    So, there is this past of growing speed-creep we have to deal with now. As Adv 4" infantry is no more the average, a lot of strong unit/threat are 6"+, elves with adv 5" and cavalry with 7" means we're finally more normal than fast.
    I'm personally more for make the armies slower (less monsters with adv 6-7", less cav with 8"+, less large with 6"+ (including ogre). But I'm quite sure this won't happen. So I feel legitimate to make the DE at least "a little faster than average" instead of average or less for a true elf feeling (actual HBE are faster with cav, banner, monsters ; SE are faster excluding trees and more if including lateral movement and special deployment).

    Also, it seem a good trade with combat prowess for managing the actual RPS part of the army (very good at killing but no range protection). As Girien stated it help creating a kind of "active" play.

    And if we have too much lateral movement, we have LT to drop of thunder beast, warlock acolyte (an unit for our horse character), drop leviathan, reduce move of harpies, etc.
    If we have too much ranged protection replace Divination for Thauma, remove HT from Kraken (definitly our monster have all the elves can dream of).
    I agree with comments about increase in game wide speed from one past edition to the next however I do not think increasing elves in turn is the answer this leads to an arms race [or Legs race ;) ] Instead the whole game needs a rethink and global reductions. I recall 6th ed. games where major combats did not occur until t3 some times even t4. Currently multi unit combos can occur in T1. The game needs to slow down imo. While I really enjoy the DL book book-wide swiftstride imo is not healthy in the long run.
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  • arwaker wrote:

    rolan wrote:

    i would not Talk about the guidelines If they were not used to stop every single proposal being made here no matter how minimal the crossing of a guideline would be.
    Especially as most proposals about shooting protection include the willingness to give up some melee prowess.
    And I Don t think DE will stop being afraid of shooting If the mist leviathan draws some fire or our reaper batteries had a Chance of shooting enemy war machines.
    Maybe it helps when you imagine sitting on the other side. What about HE getting a special rule that would grant them +1 to wound? Where is the DE prowess in melee, when their peaceful brethren had similar damage output? What about SE getting heavy armour on their elite infantry? What about a vermin Tyrant with offensive skill 9 and Lightning Reflexes? What about DH core units with advance 5? Orcs with Agi7 and Goblins with Dis8....
    There must be some limits to keep the armies flavourful and distinct. We can not just throw them overboard in case they feel uncomfortable. Sure there is always some wiggle room. DE elite infantry has heavy armour despite the guidelines for example. Sure this might seem like mandatory for you but imho it is not.

    As Giladis pointed out, there is a complex web of conditions that link all the guidelines together. At some points there is still room, but on others not. We want to avoid the power and rules creeping up from LAB to LAB. If you allow better armour on DE, then HE must get even more. If you allow DE more special deployment, then SE must get even more. This is what the guidelines need to restrict, even before the other LABs are considered in detail.

    Instead of ramming the head against the impenetrable wall, maybe we should think more out of the box. Which elements make the situation better for DE gameplay (better in terms of more fun, not more Power), that are not yet clarified as clear violation of guidelines? There are still screws to twist, which are not at the end of their threat.
    Maybe it would help then to come with suggestions that are indeed not accessible:
    - HE: +1 to wound via flaming swords, even on shooting
    - In terms of offensive power, HbE had a similar damage output (if not greater against monsters with lion guard MW(2) and S5 swordmasters VS S4 obsidian guard), leading me to consider HbE better at dealing damage than DE in the slim book when not using the altar.
    - SE: can't wardancers choose a stance that gives them a 3+ !!! Aegis in melee? Or models in a 'squishy' army with Res 5 Arm 3 and a 5+ aegis? If that doesn't count, what about flying cavalry with a 4+ armour save instead of a 5+? (Thats like what we were talking about right?)
    VS: Yes, can get off 9 through supernatural dexterity on paired weapons. Granted, you can't get lightning reflexes..
    DH: well... They sure can't get adv 5... But they do get a march move only 1" short of the DE "extremely long legged" elves... Hmmm.. oh and they do get swiftstride on some of their infantry. Oh and they do get vanguard. Oh and ambush. Oh and scout. Oh and more vanguard. I thought they were meant to be not that mobile in their guidelines? Maybe that's why they have one of the best mobile shooting platforms (gyrocopters) in the game?
    OnG: Agi 7 seems a challenge... Though... With access to witchcraft and spears you can get to Agi 5 when charged/charging? Should that be possible??? They were meant to be slow, right? Why do they have full witchcraft access? Maybe in the full LAB they will "fix" this?
    Goblins with dis 8: well a goblin king already has dis 8... Or are you talking about a unit of night goblins far away on a flank without a supporting character? Then sure.

    I mean, if there was a common item that would give +1 Res in a 12" bubble to models with Res 3 or less the common items would be a bit more "balanced"?
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