Pinned DE General Discussion

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  • I'm going to mix playable rules / guidelines.

    [FLUFF]
    The DE are focused on military training, with that, I assume that the military part ( and economy) is one of the most important of this society.

    [GAMEPLAY]
    As we can see in the many of the competitive list, if you want to perform correctly, you need the magic support, in that case let's asume a minimal of 4 different spells ( I'm more confident with 5 or 6, but assume only 4).

    So when DE society, go with an army to the battlefield they need one of the following characters to accomplish that ( if they want to win)

    1. Warlock outcast
      1. You need a general and (probably) a BSB
    2. TL general + TL (non general, no [lexicon]BSB[/lexicon])
      1. you need another char to get bsb(if it's important for your gamestyle, so it's not mandatory),
      2. will result on a overrepresentation of TL affecting internal ballance and increasing his price
      3. You will take 2 units of TM in order to take the best for points you are investing
    3. TL general + [lexicon]BSB[/lexicon] TL + Warlock [lexicon]champion[/lexicon]
      1. same overrepresentation
      2. only one TM in order to be optimal on price/benefit
    4. TL general + 2 x Warlock [lexicon]champion[/lexicon]
      1. IMO not great
    (I put general trying to minimize characters, but can be another general and the TL only a vanilla nonBSB)
    (again, only 4 spells, I think too few)

    Conclusions avoiding option 1:
    • You are forced to have a minimum of 1 unit of TM
    • Totaly minimum of spall diversity / power
    • in tha case you want more variety(only 4), directly inviable
    • Point 4 I think is inviable
    [FLUFF]
    When an DE army was calling to arms the members, to win the battle, they need at least, a minimum magic, so in order to have that, they need a unit not trained on academy, or a Outcast mage.


    • In order to get a MINIMUM they need to search and cry to a outcast to helps them, and with any regard to that person who it's saving you?
    • What it's the motivation, for an outcast, to fight(and probably die) by a society that don't want you with them, a society that don't consider you a "member"?
    • The other option, is to go with the temple, and again, seriously any high degree academy member think it's a bad idea not traini magic?


    I don't understand how this society can survive, they do not see magic as an important weapon in the battle?

    Seriously, I don't feel this have any logic, maybe with the full background could be, but I don't know how it will be possible


    PD: Maybe I am too direct, my english need to improve in order to be more "elegant" and "polite"

    The post was edited 1 time, last by athalow ().

  • Like their brethren, the Sylvan Elves have an affinity with magic. Their mages feel the impact of it upon the land around them, and know how to shape the natural world. The Land Speaks to the Sylvan Elves where other races might just hear a whisper; hills, lakes and rivers, but none more than the trees. With many trees inhabited by supernal spirits, and others residing alongside, the Sylvan Elves have learned intuitive ways of coexisting and harmonising with nature, nudging it instead of breaking its laws


    SE lore also prooves that elves in 9th age DO have an affinity for magic.
    What is the problem of answering questions without trying to distract from facts?
  • rolan wrote:

    Like their brethren, the Sylvan Elves have an affinity with magic. Their mages feel the impact of it upon the land around them, and know how to shape the natural world. The Land Speaks to the Sylvan Elves where other races might just hear a whisper; hills, lakes and rivers, but none more than the trees. With many trees inhabited by supernal spirits, and others residing alongside, the Sylvan Elves have learned intuitive ways of coexisting and harmonising with nature, nudging it instead of breaking its laws


    SE lore also prooves that elves in 9th age DO have an affinity for magic.
    What is the problem of answering questions without trying to distract from facts?

    Phew, was terrified we were gonna get some bad fluff there.
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  • Giladis wrote:

    rolan wrote:

    elves have a high magical affinity, so casting spells is easy, natural for them.
    No such thing in T9A.
    Elf is no more "attuned" to magic than a human, skink or orc.

    Magic in T9A is taught skill like math.

    The best real-world comparison to wizards in T9A would be high-end individuals in academia. People who have the cognitive ability, type of character, time and resources to be able to study and hopefully master magic. On top of that, they need to be lucky not to end up maimed or dead when something goes wrong during their studies.
    9th age says about DE:

    Dread Elves The Dread Elves possess the elven affinity for magic almost as strongly as their noble kin.
    ..... More than any of their brethren, they view magic as a military art, an aid in battle.

    9th age says about SE
    Like their brethren, the Sylvan Elves have an affinity with magic....

    So why do you claim there was no magic affinity for elves in 9th age? To quell adiscussion you didn't want to have? Nice!
  • (not commenting in staff role)


    @rolan
    Please reduce the aggression towards the staff.
    Whatever inconsistency you think you may have found, is not necessarily the result of bad faith actions, malice, or lies on behalf of the staff members.
    I am sure @Giladis will do his best to address any misunderstandings when he gets chance.


    As a scientist, I regularly see members of the public point to holes in popular science accounts, and believe they are actual holes in the science (which of course they are not). I believe that is analogous to the situation here.

    I am not and never have been a member of the T9a background team... but I've had some quite in-depth discussions with the team over the years. My summary would be: t9a background in many cases is done in a surprisingly nuanced and detailed way.

    One should not expect that the quick/simple answers supplied in a few forum posts or a tiny overview paragraph quickly posted to the website at some point, will maintain the full integrity of the actual background.
    And therefore I would advise agains believing that any perceived inconsistencies as a result are somehow due to malicious or bad faith actions on behalf of the staff.


    Indeed, when I was on RT, I encountered something very similar.
    I would often simplify and compress reasoning that was conveyed to the forums, simply because doing otherwise was impracticable. Some forum members seemed to delight in finding holes in this reasoning... but of course doing so when the reasoning is compressed, simplified and removed from context is not really very difficult or meaningful.


    So please take a breath, and do not be so hasty to ascribe malice to staff actions, when the far more likely situation is that someone has gone out of their way/role to try to answer your questions, with limitations on time/the things they can convey, and there is a simple misunderstanding, probably due to a nuance that was skipped over.
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  • Kriegschmidt wrote:

    So it seems from what you've said that someone would be more likely to be taught then if they lived for longer, matured more, and were able to learn more and acquire more wisdom.

    Like, say, an elf.

    So in the end result, the same as what whoever it was said on the last page about elves having more of an affinity for magic (as justification for representing magic in an elf army book).
    Sure Elves with their long lives have more time to achieve levels of magical mastery superior to that of humans if their magical traditions are conducive to reaching that end alongside other variables. So far that has been represented in both DE and HE slim books and it still exists in the DE LAB for those individuals who dedicate themselves to the pursuit of magic.

    Even those for whom magic is just one of their pursuits can achieve abilities beyond comparable non-elven spellcasters.


    maemon wrote:

    so we remove the Master of Spellcrafting from the HE ?
    No, because it is reflective of the circumstances HE have available that others do not.


    Nemeroth wrote:

    No because it’s a learned technique over the centuries of life available to the elves which makes it possible.
    X/

    Talk about brining oil to one's own pyre :D



    Il Maestro wrote:

    Wait... so one race’s ‘centuries of elven life’ allows them to become more magically attuned than almost all other spellcasters worldwide, yet an almost identical race’s ‘centuries of elven life’ makes them not capable of having any Wizard Master that isn’t a societal outcast?

    What’s the internally consistent explanation for that?
    Understanding of magic isn't universal, nor are the teaching traditions.

    What is available in one culture/society/faction need not be available in another. We strive to build societies of T9A factions from the ground up starting with how they began, what was their surrounding, what experiences influenced the development of their cultures and so forth. All of these things over time shape a society and what happens in it. Magical traditions are one of the elements of the society we explore (just as we do with military traditions) in a bit more detail and try to find ways how to translate them into game mechanics. The T9A:FB Magic System is a very simple one and there is a lot of simplification going on to ensure playability.

    So in short the overall cultural and societal package of how the DE developed was not conducive to producing individuals that would be in-game terms be described as "Wizard Masters". This does not mean such individuals do not exist but do not occur often enough to warrant a place in the LAB (supplements are a different story).


    I hope the upcoming background material that will be released via the Background Supplement: Beauty and Terror as well as the Legendary Army Book will answer questions regarding this in a sufficient manner. :)




    rolan wrote:

    Are you still convinced DE society does not accept master wizards? Especially those who train to support their troops?
    I am not sure how what you have quoted translates into "DE society should support master wizards"?

    Furthermore, the Guidelines refer to DE Faction which a broader thing than Daeb society which forms the core of the faction. :)




    One last bit that already exists to an extent through the Slim Books and is being further reinforced ad refined through LABs is that Warrior-Wizard hybrids are very rare outside of Undead or Supernal creatures and so far have been limited to Elves (recent spoiler showed VS being adjusted). Being both a Warrior and Wizard in the context of the T9A setting means you cannot achieve mastery of both in general. Simply finding all the requirements to achieve that in a single individual is rather difficult. There certainly are such extraordinary individuals who reach such lofty heights but they are outside the scope of LABs.

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  • rolan wrote:

    BondageGoatZombie wrote:

    Il Maestro wrote:

    Nemeroth wrote:

    maemon wrote:

    Giladis wrote:

    Elf is no more "attuned" to magic than a human, skink or orc.
    so we remove the Master of Spellcrafting from the HE ?
    No because it’s a learned technique over the centuries of life available to the elves which makes it possible.
    Wait... so one race’s ‘centuries of elven life’ allows them to become more magically attuned than almost all other spellcasters worldwide, yet an almost identical race’s ‘centuries of elven life’ makes them not capable of having any Wizard Master that isn’t a societal outcast?What’s the internally consistent explanation for that?
    EDIT: and please don’t start down the ‘they focus on their temple duties’ line of reasoning - you’d be extremely hard pressed to justify, in a world where magic is learned like mathematics, how a human with a life span of say 60-80 years can ‘learn’ enough to be a Wizard Master, but an elf can’t spare the extra years during their centuries of existence to become their magical (mathematical) equal.
    but these two things are unrelated. Being able to reach high level of magic ability has nothing to do with the fact that DE society doesn't like it.The outcast special rule already shows that it's possible for a dread elf to reach high potential. Still it is completely separate from the fact that they are shunned by society.
    While HE society apparently values magic scholarship highly.

    While you may dislike that part of the DE fluff, I do not see any inconsistency here.
    This is what 9th age says about DE and magic: [the-ninth-age.com/factions/dre…fluff=12#pagination_fluff]
    Dread Elves The Dread Elves possess the elven affinity for magic almost as strongly as their noble kin. Yet where the Highborn have a focus on the world around them, the true power of magic for the elves of Silexia lies within the mind. Even without magic, they are masters of manipulating emotions, fear most of all. Augmented with the power of the Immortal Realm, they are able to strike terror into the hearts of a most resolute foe. Their powers also lend weight to their reputation of striking from fog and shadow, disappearing without a trace, save for the stories left behind. More than any of their brethren, they view magic as a military art, an aid in battle.

    I highlighted the interesting parts, how do the explanations @Giladis and some others gave fit that?
    Are you still convinced DE society does not accept master wizards? Especially those who train to support their troops?
    that's indeed strange and conflicting with what Giladis said.

    Someone is wrong. My take on it: I trust Giladis' statements more than the website tbh.

    So now that it has been highlighted I expect these things to be changed on the website at some point.
  • rolan wrote:

    So why do you claim there was no magic affinity for elves in 9th age?
    Elves in T9A certainly have an affinity for magic but I am not sure we are using the term in the same way.


    rolan wrote:

    elves have a high magical affinity, so casting spells is easy, natural for them.
    Having an affinity for magic does in no way make casting spells easy or natural.

    Just because you like something it does not make you a natural at it or proficient at it. :)

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  • Cam wrote:

    So they just like magic? Not an affinity.
    Like is a very simple word but it contains the core of the meaning of "affinity".

    So yes elves have a liking and attraction towards magic.


    A question for those who understood the word differently - how did you understand it?

    It will help to understand the comments better.



    Cam wrote:

    so why then is the magic caster outlawed?
    The reasons why those specific casters are outcasts will be covered in the Background Supplement and LAB.



    But let's put it like this.

    Modern educated societies have an affinity for science but not all practitioners of science are endorsed as socially acceptable. :)

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  • Giladis wrote:

    rolan wrote:

    So why do you claim there was no magic affinity for elves in 9th age?
    Elves in T9A certainly have an affinity for magic but I am not sure we are using the term in the same way.

    rolan wrote:

    elves have a high magical affinity, so casting spells is easy, natural for them.
    Having an affinity for magic does in no way make casting spells easy or natural.
    Just because you like something it does not make you a natural at it or proficient at it. :)
    It doesn't really matter what the 2 of us each understand when we hear the word "affinity", I don't think we are far away from each other.
    But the point is I said "elves have an affinity for magic"
    You said "there is no such thin gin 9th age"
    whle 9th age says in elven descriptions:
    elves have an affinity for magic.

    No need to have the same translation for the word, you contradict the lore written for 9th age, no matter what theword is supposed to mean.

    a bit frustration comes from fighting windmills here, and getting answers politicians would give, that is unnecesary in a group of people trying to have fun with the same hobby.

    As I said before, if there are things already set, let us know. That is no unreasonable request in a discussions, to know what does not need to be discussed.
    It is very ...weird ... to not get straight answers for straight questions.
    I'm not even sure what there is to loose on side of the developers, the DE crowd is pretty constructive, we try to get a good book together with the teams, and try to be helpful and reasonable.
    The answers we get to our questions should also be helpful and reasonable.

    @Giladis sorry, but you made it sound like I should have known that elves are not magic-affine, you even pointed out that information is like 4 years old.
    Yet the only source available to players says still, evenafter those 4 years, that elves are magic-affine.
    That is not what I expect in a discussion among people talking about their hobby. There is nothing to gain or loose here.
  • @rolan I responded to the entirety of your quote where you stated that because DE have magic affinity casting spells should be easy and natural. All of my responses afterwards were focused on the ability to perform magic and not how into magic elves are.

    So I will respond now in a couple more words.


    There is no such thing in T9A as affinity to magic enabling users to be better at casting spells or being natural users of magic.


    Does the above make it more clear?


    From my point of view, there is no dissonance between what I have stated and the background that was published.




    edit: I mean stating "there is no affinity for magic in T9A" would be strange considering what affinity is. Saying that would be at the same level as saying "there is no affinity for architecture in T9A" :)

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  • Uhm... can I make a suggestion? Before we tear this place/forum down with all sorts of criticism regarding the state of the DE background, wouldn't it be a good idea to wait just a bit for that background to be released, then to read it, then to digest it, possibly read and digest it again/further (God forbid!), and then return to discuss it here? This entire 'discussion' on the last few pages of this thread, and the accompanying frustration, it all feels so ... premature.
  • Giladis wrote:

    Cam wrote:

    So they just like magic? Not an affinity.
    Like is a very simple word but it contains the core of the meaning of "affinity".
    So yes elves have a liking and attraction towards magic.


    A question for those who understood the word differently - how did you understand it?

    It will help to understand the comments better.



    Cam wrote:

    so why then is the magic caster outlawed?
    The reasons why those specific casters are outcasts will be covered in the Background Supplement and LAB.


    But let's put it like this.

    Modern educated societies have an affinity for science but not all practitioners of science are endorsed as socially acceptable. :)
    Affinity implies a mutual relationship
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