Pinned DE General Discussion

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  • You know what follows such hard target bubbles, or modifications to shooting?

    More appearance of quick to fire, accurate or rules that directly ignore shooting modifications. So powercreep followed by counter powercreep in future books.


    And if anything the bubble of 8" is too big. I assume the friendly units just have to be in range with a single model to benefit from it. So you can cover a 20" wide area of the deployment zone with this bubble. To big in my opinion. Should be a lot smaller, like only affecting units that are within 3" range of the leviathan, so that the MIST is realy linked to the leviathan. (so basically not more then 2-3 units at most).
  • Adjusting the rule with "Infantry units that are entirely within 8" of the mist levi".

    I do agree with Wesser that 4+ str 3 ap 0 shooting is already weak in the game and a rule like this makes them even weaker, though I don't know how to reduce medium/heavy fire while not weakening small arms aswell.
    :O&G: :KoE:

    Homebrew Army: The Lycanthropes Updated 16-8-2021!
  • Phaeoron wrote:

    @Zwei i see your point, and it's a slope we shouldn't slide down very far on. On the other hand i wouldn't mind a little sumthinsumthin to give us a tool against corner castles, and calling that misty design negating our weakness to ranged is quite a stretch imo. The iconic HE rivalry looks very one sided at the moment with all the pyro and pew pew.
    Why? How many tools against a corner castle to you need? DE got witchcraft, you got a misty (in its current form) which gives you extra movement AND provides a huge shield with its body. And you know ... if you have enough tools for EVERY enemy list to deal with, the book is op, not ok. No army should be able to be good against anything.

    The problem with the "negating" is not the Misty alone. Its the sum of all tools and special rules.

    DE got access to divination AND witchcraft, wich both can provide a "to hit" shield (distracting, hard target, enemy cant shoot, enemy get random movement).
    DE got supression volley to protect their "fragil" troops in combat with a "to hit" shield.

    Now that would be enough imho to protect those "fragil" troops.

    But now, the LAB team considers 2!! additional "to hit" shields for the troops. The misty and the hunting chariot.

    And do you know what really grind my gears? That the "no hard target for you" guideline is tried to be bypassed by a simple "oh its not hard target ... enemy units just get -1 to hit".

    R3 should not justify anything imho.
  • Somehow its still seems weird to me. I would prefer to stick with the "came out of nowhere" part described in the Fluff book and grant a unit ambush. Something like ambush within X inch of the Leviathan or make it so a unit can deploy like a scout within X inch of the Leviathan.

    Problem with ambushing like this is: what happens to the ambushing unit when the Leviathan dies?
    Perhaps force the unit onto the field with DT's and with its center on the center of the leviathan's position?

    Problem with Scout: Leviathan doesn't do much more after deployment.
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by umbranar ().

  • I like ambushing with the levi.

    So
    Mist levi gains ambush
    Under the cover of mists:
    A single unit consisting entirely of infantry units with a maximum size of 20 gain ambush. This unit does not roll for ambushing. When the Mist Leviathen succesfully ambushes the selected unit must be deployed aswell. The unit must be deployed within 1" of the mist leviathan and counts as if having ambushed.

    If you want it to bring something the rest of the game add

    Enemy models (not units) within x" count as if shooting into soft cover. Friendly models within 8" of the mist leviathan count as haveing soft cover.

    This way you cannot stack -1 shooting/hard target with cover.
    :O&G: :KoE:

    Homebrew Army: The Lycanthropes Updated 16-8-2021!
  • Baldin wrote:

    Adjusting the rule with "Infantry units that are entirely within 8" of the mist levi".
    Gonna be tough when you’re 8 wide with your OG and maintaining an inch gap.

    Zwei wrote:

    DE got access to divination AND witchcraft, wich both can provide a "to hit" shield (distracting, hard target, enemy cant shoot, enemy get random movement).
    DE got supression volley to protect their "fragil" troops in combat with a "to hit" shield.

    Both of these have been somewhat restricted.

    Div used to be one of the most popular DE paths, barely seen it since the LAB.
    Free command groups for standard infantry
  • @Zwei IMO every army book should be able to try and go up against any build, but every list made of that army book certainly not. You can't fit every tool in 4500p.

    The proposed leviathan is a hugely expensive chaff piece that can screen units when going against armies without good shooting, so there is a tradeoff.

    I have little sympathy for corner castlers but that is personal bias that i recognize in myself, just remember not all of us have many different armies to choose from on an opponent to opponent basis.

    In my humble opinion there should be a chance for DE to go up against even light shooting focused armies, but i agree that match up should remain skewed against DE. If the new misty is too good a tool, it will become very expensive or suffer the nerf bat, but the design looks worth testing to me.
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  • New

    Zwei wrote:

    Phaeoron wrote:

    @Zwei i see your point, and it's a slope we shouldn't slide down very far on. On the other hand i wouldn't mind a little sumthinsumthin to give us a tool against corner castles, and calling that misty design negating our weakness to ranged is quite a stretch imo. The iconic HE rivalry looks very one sided at the moment with all the pyro and pew pew.
    Why? How many tools against a corner castle to you need? DE got witchcraft, you got a misty (in its current form) which gives you extra movement AND provides a huge shield with its body. And you know ... if you have enough tools for EVERY enemy list to deal with, the book is op, not ok. No army should be able to be good against anything.
    The problem with the "negating" is not the Misty alone. Its the sum of all tools and special rules.

    DE got access to divination AND witchcraft, wich both can provide a "to hit" shield (distracting, hard target, enemy cant shoot, enemy get random movement).
    DE got supression volley to protect their "fragil" troops in combat with a "to hit" shield.

    Now that would be enough imho to protect those "fragil" troops.

    But now, the LAB team considers 2!! additional "to hit" shields for the troops. The misty and the hunting chariot.

    And do you know what really grind my gears? That the "no hard target for you" guideline is tried to be bypassed by a simple "oh its not hard target ... enemy units just get -1 to hit".

    R3 should not justify anything imho.
    I agree with this. For the entire duration of the LAB development you have focused on specifically making an armybook that follows the guidelines and the end result was quite successful. Now, in the final stage you drop in a hard target bubble after all, with a flying monster that can actively dish out hard target for enemy units against the entire DE army.

    First of all, I don't get at this point why we had to endure months and months of discussion to arrive at this point (when is the not a leader going to be removed from the WO then ;)?). Secondly, gameplay wise there was nothing wrong with the current/previous/+4" march iteration of the mist leviathan.

    To add some constructivism in the direction where you're going: what about flame throwers? Is ninth age going to keep to except them from to hit rolls or would it make sense to make warmachines that don't roll to hit to roll a 4+ (or something) before firing to see if they can 'see their target'.?
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  • New

    I agree. Whole design of the alpha was done in a way to NOT circumvent the restrictions of the guidelines. Seemed something was learned from the disaster the ID book design bypasses was. But now, out of a sudden the guidelines are broken? Why?

    The liviathan was a nice tough, giving some speed to infantry. I agree that it´s rules never touched the fluff. MIST...just no mist around anywhere. So wrong name. :)
    And it had a bunch of rules added that were simply not necessary at all. All these before game bonus or beeing nearby an enemy boni are not necessary. Keep it simple. Not everything in a book needs a bunch of special rules and on top some special special rule.

    I have not seen the tournament top lists, but my impression is, that the mist leviathan was already a nice addition to the lists and made it into them. Why change it and giving it a huge buff instead of just chopping off unnecessary rules and just keep it simple? A model is not boring because it doesn´t need half an hour to explain all it´s special rules.


    And just a background question...why doesn´t the -1 to hit mist also affect DE units? Is there some supernatural reason that they can see through the mist that other races (including other elfes) don´t have?
  • New

    berti wrote:

    And just a background question...why doesn´t the -1 to hit mist also affect DE units? Is there some supernatural reason that they can see through the mist that other races (including other elfes) don´t have?
    Maybe the leviathan can control the mist so that it goes where it wants it to go? Like using smoke grenades against all enemy shooters inside 8" range.
  • New

    I’m a casual player so something to mitigate shooting and make this faction a little more forgiving for us mortals who can’t think 20 turns ahead and do complex dice probability equations in our heads is fully welcome.

    It fits the very obvious fluff of A HUGE CLOUD YOU CANT SEE THROUGH and it’s only HT bubble in turn 1. It also doesn’t “break” any guidelines, that’s hyperbole. This book is still not even in the same galactic neighbourhood as the initial ID beta, claiming so is also hyperbole.

    I mean, if you don’t like it don’t take it, why shouldn’t this book have something for all DE fans? :rolleyes:
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  • New

    @Kriegschmidt I am glad you like the recent updates we posted. However I don't really understand what has changed so much, that we are no longer fallen from your grace. Anyway I really appreciate you and everybody else who give honest feedback, but are also capable of changing their opinion, when things change.

    As for the guideline debate, here is how I (personal Darky McDreadElf DarkSky opinion):

    The guidelines are somewhat like semi-hard bendable walls. They are there, you cannot easily cross them, over the time we poke, hammer, slash, yell, shoot bazookas at them. In the end we hopefully know better, which part of the guidelines needs to be there, which parts needs reinforcement, which part needs a tiny peekhole in it, and which part needs to be stretched and made a little bit more flexible.

    If the RT/TT would budge on the guideline on the first negative feedback, they might as well not have them. I like that RT/TT sticked to them as long as possible. If they arrive right now at a position, that a tiny bit of Hard Target is maybe better than dance around the Mist Leviathan theme too much, regardless of whether I personally think it is the right decision, I can understand the way the teams work.

    I expect the guideline dance to be danced for every LAB. The RT makes the guidelines to keep all LABs from stepping onto each others toes too much and enforce a unique identity for each faction. The TT will rage against the guidelines, but try to come up with the best designs inside the guidelines. Then after a few iterations, with the part inside the guidelines explored, the TT can say: "We tried everything else, but this guideline is too strict, relax a little and book will be better" and more often than not RT will probably see: "Yes, they did explore everything else, they can bend/stretch the guideline a little here."

    So: Yes, you may shout at us for either "following the guidelines like lemmings" or "breaking the guidelines whenever we want", but in my opinion there is a method to it all and it is visible. Maybe the next Misty is gonna "catch them all" (see what I did there?) offguard and the TT needs to revert the change? It might happen, but even then I'll be glad they tried and failed instead of being too timid to even do a test run.

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