Pinned DE General Discussion

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  • Thanks.

    Looking forward to test the new book. I like many of the changes, even though I find it's been minor tweaks from update to update in the past months (and years).

    For my taste the spears are a touch too expensive now, but it seems like the meta (and according data) moved to that direction. When they first came out I already didn't pick them because auxiliaries (and raiders) were strictly better - with them getting nerfed spears became "too good" and thus also had to get nerfed in an update. All in all I'd wish for a better balancing core VS elite, not feeling "taxed" - at which spot we now are again for my feeling. But thats something almost all armies have in common, since the beginning of the T9A era. So I guess "it is what it is", as the Germans say ;)

    Really happy for the prince though. Finally a foot character that might be worth fielding. Even though I think he's better off on a chariot or mount. Which indicates to me that the mounts are too cheap - again something which (for my taste) is and has been all overT9A since ever. But: excited to test!
  • Here are some things i'm keen to try out with this new stuff:

    * New harpies, and how they build into the more surround-and-strike type of list, and how they do in really ranged based lists (maxed out shooting, harpies, Cosmo/Alch)
    * All kinds of Dread Prince Builds. Going to run the numbers soon as to how a DP with Shield Breaker compairs to Lacerating Touch or maybe Transcendance. Chariot seems like a good mount choice with the +1 res and hp, but the lack of March makes me want to try out the Horse n Raptor too (possibly just trying how well DP in an Acolyte buss works now?)
    * A big block of Beast Breakers, perhaps with a Mastery of Slaughter Exarch in there to be just the ultimate 'MUST DODGE' thing for anything stompy.
    * If I'm taking the BB anyway, I may as well give the TP a try since Battle Focus will benefit this form a bit more. Might have to pair it with a bunch of agi buffs/debuffs to make them remotely work tho =)
    * Just going to see if I can fit Hunting Chariots and/or Assassins into my list easier now.

    Any specific unit or list type you guys are going to try?
    *
  • Promises wrote:

    Here are some things i'm keen to try out with this new stuff:

    * New harpies, and how they build into the more surround-and-strike type of list, and how they do in really ranged based lists (maxed out shooting, harpies, Cosmo/Alch)
    * All kinds of Dread Prince Builds. Going to run the numbers soon as to how a DP with Shield Breaker compairs to Lacerating Touch or maybe Transcendance. Chariot seems like a good mount choice with the +1 res and hp, but the lack of March makes me want to try out the Horse n Raptor too (possibly just trying how well DP in an Acolyte buss works now?)
    * A big block of Beast Breakers, perhaps with a Mastery of Slaughter Exarch in there to be just the ultimate 'MUST DODGE' thing for anything stompy.
    * If I'm taking the BB anyway, I may as well give the TP a try since Battle Focus will benefit this form a bit more. Might have to pair it with a bunch of agi buffs/debuffs to make them remotely work tho =)
    * Just going to see if I can fit Hunting Chariots and/or Assassins into my list easier now.

    Any specific unit or list type you guys are going to try?
    *
    WIth the spoiled changed I see a couple of combinations and entries I want to try:

    - Corsairs with -1 discipline debuff sound cool. 2 units with dreadprinces sound scary.
    - Thunder packs, curious how they work now that they lose charge dependency. 2x4 sound fine as Shielding units or flankers
    - Also curious about harpies never used them before (lack of models) but might get some soon and try them.
    - As mentioned above, dread princes in about every configuration (chariots, on foot, mounted, cowboys).

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  • Allright, so let's see how the goals for this update went:

    1. Overall complexity of the book with a special focus on the Army Model Rules section, Hereditary Spell, Character section, Raiding Party, Auxiliaries and Divine Altar
    Definitely yes, a lot of things got simplified

    2. Power of the Hereditary Spell
    As far as I'm aware the Hereditary's power perception is very polarizing with some people saying it's OP while others say it's compeltely useless. The update made it less spiky, so probably a move in the right direction

    3. Improving the role differentiation of the Dread Prince compared to the Officer and Beast Master
    I guess...? Something was done here, though I'm not sure just how much it has to do with roles

    4. Resolving the role overlap between the Thunder Pack and Raptor Chariot
    With the complete rework of Thunder Pack it seems the two units are no longer so similar

    5. Lateral adjustment in Harpy eliteness to improve non-chaff use of the unit
    Some kind of adjustment was made

    6. Adjustment of Gorgon eliteness to reduce role overlap with other units and to lower the points per wound ceiling potential
    I'm not sure what role overlap there was, but the eliteness was reduced

    Overall every point was at least touched - I'm not really sold on all of them so I'd rate it about 4.5 out of 6

    Now, to the totaly subjective part, my personal opinion on the update as a whole:

    The good: Academy Trained & Coastal Predator - way better formulated now. Hunting Bolas - good riddance. Gorgons - they definitelly needed that nerf

    The whatever: 5 or even 10 points price changes in units aren't enough to have much impact on rosters, since 15 points difference is at most enough to buy or cut 1 Silexian Spear

    The bad: I find the overall scope of changes laughable. The last update was in May, just over half a year ago, is this really all we could come up with? After 2 years we should be nearing the Gold version of our LAB (I'm assuming), but it still looks like we're in early Alplha looking at internal ballance as it is

    Pretty much the only units that see play are half of our infantry entries, Repeater Batteries, Shadow Riders, Gorgons and Thunder Pack. The last two just received nerfs, which is good on it's own (though I think TP might have just lost all of their flavour), but no alternatives were presented, we're just encouraged to play more Spears, Auxiliaries, Judicators, OG, Repeaters and Riders. Monsters are still unappealing. Raptor Chariot got a significant price hike for some reason. The Altar (both variants) is still a meme. Acolytes, Knights, Cloaks, Corsairs and Militants don't really have their place. Harpies and Beast Breakers got reworked, but I think the new versions are worse than the old ones. As for the Hunting Chariot, well... an attempt was made, but since it shares a limit with Repeater Battery I doubt it'll see much play

    Overall the update feels like it's forcing us to play with an even narrower range of units, instead of supplying more variety in options. Are we not making the armybooks with the idea in mind for every unit in there to be playable?

    Best Wishes
    Ozzy
  • Personally I've been fielding a unit of 14 Corsairs with handbows, banner and champion for a while now, I can't say they've ever really disappointed me. They are so manouverable, pack quite a punch to any but the heavier armoured units, and they're great at covering flanks and flanking themselves. It's BB's I've never really found a use for, and frankly I'll have to try them out to see if that changes now. But the BB-ThunderPack combo is something I at least want to try a few times, even if I'm admittedly not that hopeful (I might be pleasantly surprised) =)
  • my view on the new book

    beastbreakers Look terrible as they are neither scoring or light troops
    Who would want to field them for some s3 ap0 attacks ?

    Thunder packs have been too strongly nerfed
    Ap2 and agi 3 would help to make them ok but now they compete with judicators and obs guards on the damage output and they just seem worse

    Assassins are still too costly or are lacking some additional rules like distracting or aegis 5+ or divine attacks to be fielded
    You have to be very lucky to assassinate an opponent character
    If the idea is to buff a unit, a rule like "cannot accept a challenge" would help

    Hunting chariot are still too weak compare boltthrowers
    Make them S5 and they should be good
    You trade half the ranged damage potential for impact hits and better mobility

    Harpies
    Just go back to 8 for the same price and i will field them
    But be sure that with 5 shadow raiders in core 99% of the players won't play harpies

    Shadow raiders just make them count in core if you want to see crossbows on them
    Even if they have to be 8 minimum

    Moithir s mirror is still too weak even if I understand the logic behind
    Today the main threat on your characters are ranged damages and mostly snipes
    So you will always go for talisman of shielding for same price or 4+ 4++ to protect your T3 HP3 character

    I understand the rest of the nerfs and buffs
    So good job anyway especially as the team is still working to improve the book
  • Promises wrote:

    Personally I've been fielding a unit of 14 Corsairs with handbows, banner and champion for a while now, I can't say they've ever really disappointed me. They are so manouverable, pack quite a punch to any but the heavier armoured units, and they're great at covering flanks and flanking themselves. It's BB's I've never really found a use for, and frankly I'll have to try them out to see if that changes now. But the BB-ThunderPack combo is something I at least want to try a few times, even if I'm admittedly not that hopeful (I might be pleasantly surprised) =)
    I love the 10 corsairs with repeater. It's a good chaff / flanker
  • I have not too much games with DE, but I play them every 3-4 weeks.

    I tried a lot of infantry games with them. Sometimes added a monster or two.
    My conclusion was:

    - You need redirectors, even with an MSU approach, and be it only to protect the wizard unit. 5 man core dark riders are the to go option there, because core. Mostly inable to perform anything else, but with special chaff equal costed it is a trade propably be done by most players.
    The changes on Gorgon makes Dark riders even better in this comparison, while the harpies got an additional task when they don´t chaff.

    - I hate the blades of darag mechanic. Either the unit is useless or compeltely OP (but with the rending banner in it always). This will also result in my opinion in an impossible task to find a correct price spot. And it in addition makes using 2 units of militia completely usesless and a no go. I stand by my opinion after a lot of games I tried them that this unit is a mistake by design.

    - I like the chariot and raptor knights a lot. Even when both got killed most of the time by the omnipresent alchemy recently.

    - I am unable to get much out of the monsters. The only one that does it´s job is the mist leviathan (protection and chaff role in my list) but neither the hydra nor the kraken will perform in my list. Propably more a problem of my playstyle and not building the list around the monsters (no beastmaster general) but take them as support for infantry (what their low advance value would suggest)

    - I was so eager to include an assasin in my lists, but he nerver performed. Often unable to close in with oposing charakter he had to fight R&F troops and got killed with ease. Assasin in my opinion NEEDS some kind of protection on top of pure WS. It can´t be that it is easier or at least as easy to get a wound on the assasin as on a spear elf.

    - Corsairs with handbow and paired weapon are nice. They are good to help dominate a flank, can act as wizard bunker with some mobility.
    I still think their special rule should not stack with fear.
    There is NO reason to ever use the new beast breakers. All other core units will do the same or more damage in CC to their main targets but suffer from stomps, just no oponent will ever shove a thunderstomp monster into them if he can avoid it...and against everything else they are worst unit for fights.
  • Yann l elfe wrote:

    my view on the new book

    beastbreakers Look terrible as they are neither scoring or light troops
    Who would want to field them for some s3 ap0 attacks ?


    Agree that the offensive output ain't great but with ranks, can't be stomped and the possibility to field a character in them (possibly an assassin or DP?) they can be quite the monster/stomping heavy units.


    Thunder packs have been too strongly nerfed
    Ap2 and agi 3 would help to make them ok but now they compete with judicators and obs guards on the damage output and they just seem worse

    Disagree, the differences are quite big. Thunder packs pack a decent punch but the are way more resilient. Judicators are high strength high AP and probably hit most attacks (first round). They are true can openers. Obsidian guard have lots of medium quality attacks, probably best at wiping medium to low armoured masses. I would say each has their specialty and different target.



    Assassins are still too costly or are lacking some additional rules like distracting or aegis 5+ or divine attacks to be fielded
    You have to be very lucky to assassinate an opponent character
    If the idea is to buff a unit, a rule like "cannot accept a challenge" would help

    Agree here, the fact that he can be challenged or suffer the consequences is pretty weird for an assassin.

    I understand the rest of the nerfs and buffs
    So good job anyway especially as the team is still working to improve the book

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  • I've always been of two mind about the Assassin a bit. I love the idea of fielding them, I love my opponent having to take them into account, I love the hidden threat. I love that I've had an Assassin one-shot a dragon (helped by reroll to hit, to be fair), and snipe out characters on good rolls. But when they don't work, you've got this Hidden unit that you feel doesn't even have a good fight to pop in, or it just whiffs one too many attack or the enemy makes one too many saves and you've basically dunked a Battery or Chariot down the drain for nothing.

    I do think the point change will help a lot. It tends to pain me a bit to field things like Assassins since I like fielding big broad armies and something not on the table tends to lose out to 'just one more unit to field' in the listbuilding process, but I'm certainly going to have a few more goes at them. If only so I can field my awesome Assassin model =)
  • I am eager to field 12 harpies just once, although all my friends are telling me it is stupid, but i just want to do it for fun factor.

    Also with TP change i will definitely try Dread Giants from the supplement as more and more tournaments in my area are allowing them. Fun fact Mist Leviathan grants them his HT aura as they are Infantry type :)
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  • A wounded character will be reluctant to charge an infantry unit, as he knows an assassin will be there to greet him. One bad save and he dies.

    I'm a big fan of assassins. They have always performed in my battles. They killed characters are worth much more than them. Even if sometimes it took 2 to kill one, it's still very profitable at the price of highly equipped characters compared to the price of assassins.
  • Palmu wrote:

    I make this comment purely as a player and Assassin afficionado, not as a member of the GDT:

    Imagine if they were like VS Assassins tho - TWO Assassins pop up to gank a character and neither of them has to accept a duel.
    The DE Assassins handicap is Professional Courtesy. Without this rule this model will see more in games
  • I am a little torn on the Assassin. There are quite a few rules I would love to see on the entry, like being able to handle characters already in a challenge or even some defense to stop bleeing CR so easily.

    On the other hand: I like the Assassin to be as cheap as possible.

    What I don't want is the design of the VS Assassin, which is can use an opposing character to gateway them into unit lawnmowers with 15 quality attacks to just wipe the enemy unit.

    ---

    So keeping this line of thinking, maybe we can do the following:
    • Remove Artistry of Death, replace with Ruthless Efficiency: Assassin isn't targeted at more rounds of fighting anyway
    • Remove or make optional Repeater Handbow: Why does it have to be there?
    And use the reduced eliteness from those two changes to get a meaningful rule. What do you think?

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