Balance Patch 2021 gold release notes KoE

dan wrote:

SirMC2015 wrote:

dan wrote:

Yeah I think we’re saying the same thing. Treb is great.

No. DH catapult is great. Trebs are hit or miss literally.

What’s the fundamental difference between the two? They have identical weapon stats, except the DH pays more for stuff I don’t care about in a war machine like stubborn.

dan wrote:

Interesting. I just see them as so cheap that it doesn’t matter if one breaks, since in an average game you’ll be hitting with one a turn every turn and misfiring twice. Even if both misfires result in a two turn loss of shooting that’s still 4 direct catapult hits for 490 points.

With the rule you’re proposing it’d go up to 5 direct for an extra 110 points. Is that really worth it?

Or maybe, is the problem not with the catapult itself but the opportunity cost with the Scorpion?

McBaine wrote:

Zwei wrote:

Example: Trebuchet, Areahit (15) shooting at 24 swordmasters would do 15 hits, no matter if they are 12/2 ; 8/3 or 6/4 while a unit of 10 greybeards would only get 10 hits or a unit of 4 ogre only 4 hits.

I don't know, a single model unit or lone hero that gets 15 auto hits... that seems extreme.

dan wrote:

I’m suggesting the Scorpion is worth more to KoE because the current meta is significantly heavier on Cowboys and single models than it is big blocks of infantry. If it were the reverse I imagine we’d be having the exact same conversation in reverse.

My argument is actually that KoE players don’t think the treb is too expensive, they think it’s too expensive to be worth exchanging their scorpions.

Here, two simple thought experiments:

1) With with no changes to either weapon but an increase from 0-2 total to 0-2 each, do you start running trebuchets?

2) Keeping the 0-2 cap in place, would you run trebuchets if they were 300 points but had +4 to misfire rolls?

dan wrote:

Here, two simple thought experiments:

1) With with no changes to either weapon but an increase from 0-2 total to 0-2 each, do you start running trebuchets?

2) Keeping the 0-2 cap in place, would you run trebuchets if they were 300 points but had +4 to misfire rolls?

dan wrote:

They’re directly comparable precisely because they perform entirely different roles but compete for the same, limited slots. The scorpion is better against things the meta is heavy on like monsters and solo models, making the trebuchet a harder sell because of the opportunity cost.

Marcos24 wrote:

in terms of mechanics I don’t take them because relying on a roll of 5+ is just not worth it to me.

if I had to roll to hit for each model that can be hit in the area, followed by a wound roll for each model that was hit, instead of one dice for all on a 5+ and auto wound if it hits, I’d probably find it less disappointing. Simply because at the very least you get something every time.

I’ve had far more games with not a single successful hit for me to ever want to take it again. It also doesn’t help that a trebuchet doesn’t look right in a pitched battle to me, so I doubt I’ll every truly love it

dan wrote:

I’m suggesting the Scorpion is worth more to KoE because the current meta is significantly heavier on Cowboys and single models than it is big blocks of infantry. If it were the reverse I imagine we’d be having the exact same conversation in reverse.

dan wrote:

My argument is actually that KoE players don’t think the treb is too expensive, they think it’s too expensive to be worth exchanging their scorpions.

dan wrote:

1) With with no changes to either weapon but an increase from 0-2 total to 0-2 each, do you start running trebuchets?

2) Keeping the 0-2 cap in place, would you run trebuchets if they were 300 points but had +4 to misfire rolls?

dan wrote:

They’re directly comparable precisely because they perform entirely different roles but compete for the same, limited slots. The scorpion is better against things the meta is heavy on like monsters and solo models, making the trebuchet a harder sell because of the opportunity cost.