Balance Patch 2021 gold release notes HE

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  • Balance Patch 2021 gold release notes HE

    Your ACS wrote:

    Princes!


    We come bearing news from the Throne, and as the world grows darker and our enemies abound, our leaders have not been idle. Many of our mighty forces which have been sharpening spears in preparation for eventual battle are ready to wade into the breach again and again...your feedback has been heard!

    We have done significant analysis on the makeup and prevalence of our forces in the field and worked closely with the project leadership to implement some of our least-represented entries. We want to give a big thank you to all RT for hearing our concerns and working with us to find the best way to implement our goals. I know it is an often-levied complaint that leadership isn't listening but this patch should stand in stark contrast to that viewpoint. You should also be aware that many of your comments were posted to internal boards and looked at by leadership directly: so keep posting quality stuff!

    A big thanks also goes out to @fjugin who, once we showed the legitimacy of our concerns helped find the best ways to address them, and to @Just_Flo who helped liaise. We appreciate the care they took in helping us arrive at our destination.

    Through the review process, one additional concern was raised by the expert players and the RT, resulting in one additional change being made. Together, the changes together represent the finished result for the GOLD 2021 HBE Update:

    GOLD 2021 HBE Update wrote:

    Change Request 1: Internal balance between Prince, on-foot non-wizard honors. This was accomplished by increasing the cost of a few of the most used entries and decreasing it for a few of the least played ones:
    • Prince down by 10 points and some Prince-options went up 10 points to compensate (i.e. mundane Spear; Griffon; Dragon; Lion Chariot), for a net-neutral effect to the common builds, and a slight point decrease to uncommonly fielded ones;
    • Commonly fielded honors (Queen's Companion, Master of the Caenrig Tower and Royal Huntsman Chariots) went up 20 points and uncommonly fielded honors (Fleet Officers, High Warden of the Flame, Queen's Cavalier, Foot Royal Huntsman) went down 20 points;
    • Several small adjustments were made to help preserve the integrity/intent of entries;
    Change Request 2 (not counting towards limit, and as part of the above):
    • Prince mundane Spear +10 (15);
    Change Request 3: Flame Wardens Significant Underrepresentation (especially at small Sizes)
    • Flame Wardens starting points: -30 (290); PPM increases by +1 (27), reverting the previous change;
    Change Request 4: Non-represented Magic Items:
    • Amethyst Crystal -10 (50).
    RT Change Request:

    The addition of the Ring of the Pearl Throne restriction hits one major build (a specific Royal Huntsman on Lion Chariot build) which has been deemed as too polarizing in certain matchups, and thus the restriction added. To be clear, this change was also not related to the original proposals made, but was separate and only implemented late in the review cycle. This is the least-restrictive version of what was proposed, and without any point increases or breaking other, unintended builds. We hope the impact will be minimal, even as we know this will be disappointing to some of you.

    At the same time, we are eager and excited to see what new builds everyone comes up! These changes hopefully capture the spirit and the intent of the community in wanting to achieve a better internal balance for our book, and will provide new and interesting options to explore.

    I want to thank again the RT for helping us work through these concerns, many of which have existed for years at this point (at the very least since before the 2.0 version) and which we have been pursuing avidly for months. It feels like a positive step forward that we have addressed some of these commonly-raised core concerns. Importantly, and especially to any non-HBE visiting, I want to highlight the scope and approach of what was undertaken: many tournament data was crunched, analysis made, drafts written by the HBE ACS before settling only a narrow scope and presenting it to the RT who helped us narrow our focus. It has been a positive marriage which I hope can continue going forward.

    Thoughts, comments, questions? What will you guys be testing in a post-patch first?

    Kind regards,

    The HBE ACS

    Advisery Board Member

    Organises: TA, TS and ACS. Click to apply to staff. Soon click to get Infos on Data Analysis and Balancing. Colour code for role I post in: Me, Project Statements, Staff role, "moderating"

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Axiem ().

  • To be honest I am shocked by Ring change - so there is this item that is almost never taken and this honor + mount that was only taken by one guy successfully with this item that is never played. So lets not only make it more expensive but just to be sure also ban it.

    My gallery: Adam painting stuff (HE, VC, OK and lots of terrain)
    My battle reports: Adam Battle reports
  • Mixed feelings about this one, honestly.

    I like what the +20/-20 tries to do for our internal balance, but I'm not sure it succeeds, as some elements of the honor system (I'm looking at you, Fleet Officer!) are just kinda fundamentally broken in the sense that they don't frikking work. Interesting is that all of this imposes a huge price hike on the standard build, whose hero section starts to become really bloody tight. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I had hoped for some more fundamental compensation. I wonder if we'll finally see some different build crop up. If so, the change was a success, if not (and I think I'm in the not-camp), then it was just a bit of a nerf. Arguably, HBE might have deserved such a nerf, but I just wish it could've resulted in abit more of an overhaul of the internal balance.

    Love the change on the FW, that's a great example of what I think we're looking for. Kudos!! Aggressive, really mixes it up, and I'm gonna have to fundamentally rethink them. They may even open up some new archetypes.

    Change on Amethyst Crystal makes Eagles jealous, they thought they had dibs on the 'cute-but-useless' price reductions. At least units of 5 eagles have some place in a list, Amethyst Crystal just flat out doesn't.

    For the rest, see Adam's post :D
    ETC Team Belgium 2014 Dark Elves
    ETC Team Belgium 2015 Skaven
    ETC Team Belgium 2016 Lizardmen
    ETC Team Belgium 2017 Highborn Elves
    ETC Team Belgium 2019 Highborn Elves

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Arthur ().

  • @here

    Please note, having just seen what was uploaded, there are some typos in the version.

    The following should be noted (an earlier, draft version seems to have been uploaded uploaded by mistake).

    Queen's Cavalier 40 points. Elven Steed 30 Young Dragon 265, dragon 430, ancient dragon 615
    MoCT upgrade for prince: It went up by +20pts (60) instead of -20pt (20) as it should have.

    We'll work to get those updated quickly.

    @fjugin @Iluvatar @Eru @Just_Flo

    Kind regards,

    Axiem

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Axiem ().

  • Just to be sure, were those changes derived from deep thought and especially thorough data analysis, or were they pulled out from the brown sorrow end?
    my ETC 2019 roster
    750 - High Prince on Dragon, Dragon, Great Weapon, Obsidian Rock
    565 - Mage: Asfad Scholar, Master, Divination, Book of Meladys,
    485 - High Prince: Queen's Companion, General, Spear, Sliver of the Blazing Dawn, Destiny's Call, Longbow, Moonlight Arrows
    280 - 20x Citizen Spears, MC
    190 - 5x Elein Reavers, Bows
    662 - 27x Sea Guard, MSC, Banner of Speed
    360 - 5x Knights of Ryma, M
    180 - 3x1 Sea Guard Reaper
    663 - 21x Lion Guard, MSC, Banner of Becalming
    4500
  • WOW i am simply stunned.

    I've long thought that the forum is crazy packed with negativity and doomsayers, and many shows little respect towards the work that t9a has done,
    So i've tried to do the opposite, or just stayed away from the forums.

    i have felt i can understand most decisions the project have made, even HBE nerfs,
    and even when i dont, i still trust that the project is trying to improve the game.
    So i've made a point to not add to fire/conflicts going on, i dont think i've posted a single negative comment here.

    But now im just confused,
    i know balance changes is not made based on a single player (or i hope) but this feels kinda personal since im the only one (or one of the few?) that actually take this item.

    I mean ffs, the ring was priced at 100pts, it was rated as to bad because no one played it and got buffed, new price 90pts,
    still none wanted it, new price 80pts, still none plays it, new price 75pts,
    and suuuddenlyyy omg this is broken better be banned. COMMON?? How does one reach this conclusion?

    I love my build, i tweaked it and played different versions of it for years, afaik its deemed UP by the majority, i sure as hell rarely see it and never see it in other competetive hbe list.
    I played this guy all of last year, through social distancing, ocho, cinco, gauntlet.

    I have never won any grand tournament, ive been beaten plenty of times, im not an "etc" player, i consider myself an above average player trying to improve, hoping to qualify for ETC one year,
    and i have taken pride in playing something different then the NET-list, trying to find alternative builds to compete in the meta.
    but i mean what do i do here??
    Are you trying to force me to play the net-list because thats what im getting from this?

    for NYR i decided to try something completly different, so went for a full HBE monster mash, didnt really work for me. So was planning on playing another version of my chariot list with ring to "who 8 my wings", i guess thats down the thrash, and for what???
    The ring is way underused, so this is by no means data-driven,

    ahhh by this point this is just a rant, might edit this later to something prettier,

    I just dont get it, i really dont. And i am usually never the type of guy who whines just because of nerfs
    Also known as: feedm3
    Find my Youtube battlereports here: youtube.com/user/BustaMoovee/
    #Highbornelves4life

    The post was edited 2 times, last by BustaMoovee ().

  • Dragonforged Armour – Armour EquipmentFollows the rules for Heavy Armour (can be enchanted as if it was Heavy Armour). In addition, tThe wearer gainsAegis (2+, against Flaming Attacks) and Aegis (6+), and automatically fails all Fortitude Saves.

    Please remove the first 'and' (highlighted here) and replace it with a comma, we are not savages!

    Oh... and revert that silly Ring of the Pearl Throne change lol :)
  • Axiem wrote:

    @here

    Please note, having just seen what was uploaded, there are some typos in the version.

    The following should be noted (an earlier, draft version seems to have been uploaded uploaded by mistake).

    Queen's Cavalier 40 points. Elven Steed 30 Young Dragon 250, dragon 430, ancient dragon 600

    MoCT upgrade for prince: It went up by +20pts (60) instead of -20pt (20) as it should have.

    We'll work to get those updated quickly.

    @fjugin @Iluvatar @Eru @Just_Flo

    Kind regards,

    Axiem
    Thanks. Will try to get this fixed within a day or two

    Head of Rules Team

    Advisory Board

    Assistant Head of Rules Clarity Team

    VS_LAB team

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Axiem ().

  • @BustaMoovee you get all my love and support. What has been done to the ring is not fine.

    T9A has put a lot of effort in establishing the new “data driven approach to balancing”, only to throw it out of the window with the ring. It is obvious that RoPT was not OP but UP


    @Just_Flo did you manage to get the statistics for the RoPT? Apologies to ask you again, I know you are extremely busy. However, in light of what is now being published with the ring, it’d be good to have some official usage data of it; maybe RT didn’t have this information at hand when taking such decision? Thank you
    Always a Highborn Elf, here or somewhere else

    The post was edited 1 time, last by calcathin ().

  • Furion wrote:

    Just to be sure, were those changes derived from deep thought and especially thorough data analysis, or were they pulled out from the brown sorrow end?
    I can say that a substantial amount of data analysis was done to identify which honors and entries were critically underused and required meaningful buffs to see play.
  • Vespacian wrote:

    Furion wrote:

    Just to be sure, were those changes derived from deep thought and especially thorough data analysis, or were they pulled out from the brown sorrow end?
    I can say that a substantial amount of data analysis was done to identify which honors and entries were critically underused and required meaningful buffs to see play.
    and which of those critically underused (archers, young dragons, queens, on foot honors, i am too tired to type this list again and again) saw meaningful buffs?
    my ETC 2019 roster
    750 - High Prince on Dragon, Dragon, Great Weapon, Obsidian Rock
    565 - Mage: Asfad Scholar, Master, Divination, Book of Meladys,
    485 - High Prince: Queen's Companion, General, Spear, Sliver of the Blazing Dawn, Destiny's Call, Longbow, Moonlight Arrows
    280 - 20x Citizen Spears, MC
    190 - 5x Elein Reavers, Bows
    662 - 27x Sea Guard, MSC, Banner of Speed
    360 - 5x Knights of Ryma, M
    180 - 3x1 Sea Guard Reaper
    663 - 21x Lion Guard, MSC, Banner of Becalming
    4500
  • Vespacian wrote:

    Furion wrote:

    Just to be sure, were those changes derived from deep thought and especially thorough data analysis, or were they pulled out from the brown sorrow end?
    I can say that a substantial amount of data analysis was done to identify which honors and entries were critically underused and required meaningful buffs to see play.
    It is a shame that all this analysis was then not used since no honor got meaningful buff on top of RH getting totally gutted instead.
    My gallery: Adam painting stuff (HE, VC, OK and lots of terrain)
    My battle reports: Adam Battle reports
  • @calcathin thank you,
    also appreciate u trying to get some more clarity in the decision,
    im way to agitated right now so i'll join in when i feel i can keep a civil tone :) will get nowhere trying to make an argument upset lol.
    And if its locked, its locked, just have to make my peace i guess.
    Also known as: feedm3
    Find my Youtube battlereports here: youtube.com/user/BustaMoovee/
    #Highbornelves4life
  • Furion wrote:

    Vespacian wrote:

    Furion wrote:

    Just to be sure, were those changes derived from deep thought and especially thorough data analysis, or were they pulled out from the brown sorrow end?
    I can say that a substantial amount of data analysis was done to identify which honors and entries were critically underused and required meaningful buffs to see play.
    and which of those critically underused (archers, young dragons, queens, on foot honors, i am too tired to type this list again and again) saw meaningful buffs?
    In my opinion, I think the Fleet Officer and min Flame Warden blocks buffs are meaningful. I still worry that the efficiency of their competition may outweigh the buffs, but the buffs are substantive.

    I think the QCav horse prince buff came close, but not quite there.

    the rest, again in my opinion, are not meaningful enough to change lists.