BH unofficial LAB: Doom Beasts

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    • BH unofficial LAB: Doom Beasts


      Hello all!

      Stemming from an interesting discussion on the BH subforum, I wanted to further expand on an idea posted there and propose a consistent AB with the same approach. It emphasises strong, mobile BH, is definitely melee and charge-oriented and relies on bursts of violence rather than a predictable damage output.

      Remark: a number of concepts, entries and ideas are not from me but from the general discussion. My role was mostly to put them all together and harmonize around the book direction, and in many cases this is a direct copy/paste: big thanks to @Davian particularly who proposed many concepts that were included straight. From the 2nd iteration on, this is definitely not a single-author book and the community is the one to be thanked, taking part either by proposing or challenging ideas, giving opinions or directions!

      It is meant to be an invitation to brainstorm and explore what could be done to adjust some aspects of the book, with a tangible support so anyone can try out, see if it translate correctly in game and improve it. Pricing should be adjusted and enable pleasurable play sessions for all that allow to test out the various concepts and ideas in good conditions.

      :BH: Link to the Doom Beasts - A BH Homebrew!
      :totems: For those interested in testing other configurations, PM me and I'll send you the editable file.

      Here are some of the key elements that IMHO caused issues and that were consequently altered significantly, to bring BH closer to this vision:
      • Primal Fury? PF feels actively "anti-beast", inherited from the infamous BH 7th edition of WFB... With this near-certain to-hit reroll, BH currently are the most predictable damage dealers in the game. They should be excellent at bringing the pain, but "consistence" is the opposite of what I expect for wild, violent beings. PF is so embedded in the current AB that this change itself implied largely reworking a lot of entries! The main rule that replaced it is Brutal Instinct, which translates into less predictable bursts of damage and represents the lack of a proper fighting technique meaning that some of the hit only glance while others strike true.
      • Glass hammers? a recurrent complaint and one which contributes to the army being badly RPS, is that if BH hit hard (cf PF above) they die in drove versus a decent shooting or, even worse, anything hitting before them thus making them magic-junkies to palliate this issue. In this homebrew I tried several approaches to answer this aspect and always looked at it in combination with the replacement of Primal Fury as those two issues are closely related, and in a way that made sense fluff-wise.
      • Blocky army? I don't know if others are unhappy about it but I am :D ! Many elements in the army feel too "blocky" (not sure how to word it properly), with above-average movement but meh maneuvrability, and the propension to require large blocks if one wants to field good infantry. More or less connected to this blocky aspect, BH infantry-based armies are too populous compared to what a hunter-gatherers and partly nomadic sheperd society could sustain (I expect mongrels would tend to war hogs that could be used as cattle). Although a BH warhost could in fact be the anomaly that happens precisely when their population grows too big or when they consumme all their resources, then turning into a dangerous host that must be stopped lest it consumes more and more resources and land. For that reason, I tried to up a bit the army eliteness, but keeping them in the "strength in number" territory.


      As for general concepts structuring the army:
      • Craftsmanship: being naturally tough and strong, BH do not need advanced armour or weaponry. Consequently and as in the current LAB, only their most advanced troops and character have any form of armour. I pushed this further by removing the Beast Axe, of limited availability anyway and which feels out of place (boosting Def feels artificial / like a crutch), replacing it by more armywide rules.
      • (De)Buff wagon: I see BH culture as extremely individualistic, so them boosting others would feel out of place. There are some ways to achieve it, but more in the form of a shout or one-time thing rather than a sustained buff. In this optic, Banner of the Wild Herd has been reworked to push the models' bestiality rather than simply boosting them up. On the other hand, their predatory nature and dreadful reputation - which they cultivate well - meant that debuff aura are on the table!
      • Of Beasts and Men: instead of giving flat Primal Fury replacements, I tried to build archetypes based on the original beast: goat, boar, bull, etc. mixed at various degrees with cultural/social aspects (particularly for mongrels)


      Now a quick review of some of the hallmarks of this homebrew:

      Display Spoiler

      Wildhorns:
      • Brutal fighters with little regard for unit cohesion [skirmisher-like, hard target (1) & light troop].
      • Eager to prove their worth, caring little for objectives [no scoring].
      • When they charge, they go head first in a ram-like manner using their reinforced skull to deal damage and for protection [impact hit & res +1 on charge].
      • The brutality of this initial impact can badly destabilize an enemy formation [anarchy & mayhem].
      • As the fight transitions to a melee, their lack of technique and their beastly mania shows: some hits land at full power while others glance [brutal instinct] and they take any opportunity to gore enemies with their horns [battle focus].
      • Finally, if having a herd behind them may ensure they do not break from fight, the damage they deal is the main criteria they go by to evaluate if they are on the winning side [anarchy & mayhem].
      • In terms of damage, wildhorns are at a similar level as before on average: if in protracted fights they are strictly inferior, the also are significantly more brutal and resilient in charge. Outside of a fight, their resistance to shooting is improved thanks to their skirmisher-like formation. Globally these wildhorns trade reliability (hit & static CR), some utility (scoring) and grinding capability for a devastating charge, better maneuvrability, and improved resistance. Speaking of resistance - the Res 5 reached by wildhorns on charge is the soft cap for all BH in the book, representing their skull resistance: even minotaurs and characters are unable to go beyond naturally, with Gortach being the only exception.
      Mongrels:
      • They have the same inclinations, cultural background and "fighting technique" or lack thereof as wildhorns [brutal instinct].
      • Their lesser strength and resistance means they cannot charge as effectively, survive strong attacks or use their horns like a wildhorn would. Instead they have to rely on a better unit cohesion, although this is looked down by other BH [lack of other wildhorn rules].
      • Their frustrated agressivity turned into bitter cruelty which they let go when facing weaker than them [repressed cruelty].
      • Lesser tasks -by BH standards- are forced onto them [scoring] while their life or death is irrelevant to all [insignificant].
      • They are on average inferior to the official version. However, their uniqueness makes them more valuable: they are the only way to have a true static CR in the whole army and are the only scoring unit in core; add to that that when fighting along another unit, or somehow ending up on the winning side of a fight they can actually grind quite a bit.
      Feral Hounds:
      • They turn around their prey, charging in then breaking away if they could not take the advantage immediately - only to reform and wait for a new opportunity [opportunistic predator].
      • When fighting, larger packs will overwhelm the enemy, each hound pushing forward to attack [FiER].
      • Fast and maneuvrable, their damage output is less than before as they hit their usual targets on 4+ instead of 3+; but FiER means that bigger packs become more interesting, and especially the improved maneuvrability makes them easier to use than before. Careful though, they will rarely stand in place if they get charged and make for poor redirectors if left unchecked!
      Longhorns:
      • Similar to wildhorns but stronger and better at curbing their violence in melee. As longhorns, the urge to prove themselves individually is lesser and physical strength is not the only criteria to move further in the hierarchy: the ability to plan ahead and ensure victory becomes determinant [scoring].
      • Their damage output, similarly to wildhorns, is tied to their ability to charge. A key difference is that they trade maneuvrability for power. Where wildhorns count on a loose formation to stand shots, longhorns trust their impregnable armour (by BH standards!)
      Minotaurs:
      • These mountains of muscles charge enemies on sight, driven by pure rage. If a wildhorn's impact is powerful, a minotaur's one is another level yet as their massive body and mighty horns let them to gore and trample multiple enemies even before striking.
      • Their rage grows as they get wounded and are nearing their death [rage].
      • This version of the minotaurs lacks the all-powerful battle focus + primal fury combo, and even on charge this version is weaker in terms of damage output. They are still very powerful and this reduced damage dealing ability allowed to match the minotaur resistance with their bulk for an overall similar impact. Rage is a perfect fit for bulls, getting more dangerous the dire their situation becomes. Overall the unit remains extremely threatening, the same way a bunch of 500kg bulls with axes would be in real life.
      Centaurs:
      • Same spirit as the official version, with a twist on Sober which improves the centaurs' self-control and ability to land good strikes as represented by a better brutal instinct, while light troops becomes a normal unit rule in an attempt to globally improve BH maneuvrability. They can include hounds in their unit in an echo to the mixed units of old, and in a consistent way as I'd expect centaurs to be the closest to hounds in BH society, hunting together. This is also meant to improve centaurs resistance to shooting in a fluffy way as hits get partially distributed onto the hounds, while the hounds' FiER lets them bring some support in melee.
      Razortusks:
      • A single, sizeable difference: similarly to boars, they won't shun a fight and if they decide to charge in, it is not for running away straight after - hence the stubborn on charge. After this initial contact, if the fight turns at their disadvantage they probably won't stick around though!
      Gargoyles:
      • A bit stronger and more resistant than mongrels, yet they do not possess the wildhorn attributes that would let them have such a mighty charge. In addition, their inelegant body prevents them from forming even basic, coherent units like mongrels. These creatures, some kind of nasty in-between that lives on the fringe of BH society, are nonetheless a threat in large flocks and should not be ignored.
      • Gargoyles suffered the most from losing PF as they could not get wildhorns perks (the ram-like bone structure that enables a wildhorn to charge head first is not compatible with a flying creature of this size), nor could they form a "normal" unit like mongrels. Their maneuvrability is capped already, and I'd even consider reducing it to 8"/16" considering these are mostly forest dwellers where maneuvrability is far more important than peak speed. With the addition of airborne predator, representing their ability to fight in 3 dimensions instead of just landing a hit from behind their comrades for support, bigger units are significantly stronger than their previous version.
      Briar Beast:
      • Unique take on the unit, which I envisionned as the idea of a terror rather than a true, purely physical entity. It is meant to be an indecipherable, looming threat. Even when it is not really there, its rumour spreads around a forest, like a shadow in the magic; insects and vermins around it become restless and aggressive, damaging and destabilizing enemies around. This is also a good incentive for enemies to exit the forest and give way for this horror to take on a physical form and enter the battlefield!
      Cyclops:
      • After toying with the idea of a buff wagon, I focused on why some players like it: it fills a role that BH badly need, being a tool to dent big monsters, dangerous infantry or zone big dangerous flyers; and why I (and maybe some others) don't like it: it does not feel BH.
      • In this new take on the BH AB, the cyclops' hurl attacks is still fully relevant. So I kept it, but tweaked it to better match the army identity and behave less like a generic artillery: its range got culled but it gained QtF, being essentially a big throwing weapon; misfire was removed, making it more a "living thing throwing stuff" rather than a mechanical device that malfunctions. To counterbalance that, the AoE got reduced (a lot).
      • In melee I opted to something unique and consistent with the shooting attack: if it throws rocks that deal (2x3) AoE damages, most likely it throws (2x1)-sized rocks that roll a bit upon landing... then why wouldn't the cyclops use those rocks in melee? Well, this one does exactly that!
      Gortach:
      • Similarly to the minotaurs, losing BF + PF was a nerf that couldn't be made up for reasonable. Some of this "credit" went into thickening its fur to Arm 2, giving protection against small AP attacks. Then, similarly to minotaurs, Rage fits like a glove... and is even more potent on such a creature. To push further in this direction, Strength from Flesh had a single word changed: instead of recovering HP, it now gains HP! Although getting fatter means losing attacks... so don't feed it too much!
      Jabberwock:
      • Aura of madness was changed to have a much more direct effect. Instead of sapping morale, it now brings true madness to enemies in its grasp who will occasionally mix friend and foe, feel abandoned... this new version does not necessarily requires a tailored list to use at its fullest and can bring a decisive advantage even by just staying near combats.


      Regarding the pricing, some thought went into it but it is definitely wrong!
      To give a quick explanation at how it was made, I considered the variation in offense & defense for each entry compared to their current official counterparts, against several sets of common characteristics representing their main and secondary targets. Then pondering 3:1 in favour of melee (grinding) over charging, and reassessing (quickly) case by case what seemed reasonable.

      Please comment, share your views, awe and critics!

      Tsuandan Warring States
      Cathay for T9A!
      ----------
      :totems: BH Homebrew :totems:
      Beastly Beasts without PI!

      The post was edited 20 times, last by Idum ().

    • Really like all of your ideas. Especially the change to wildhorns and the briar beasts.

      Though i would suggest to keep at least a few units with Primal Instinct in the book. For example the minotaur fraction or at least the mino characters.

      Also i would like to see the devastating charge (- 1 to wound) somewhere. Maybe for razortusks and longhorns.
    • I like the direction and vision of this a lot :thumbup:
      Good job @Idum


      If I'm being more picky, I think some of the detailed mechanical implementations and concepts would be more powerful than you imagine, and the resultant pricing would exacerbate some of the skill curve issues.
      One of the key things that makes for a good LAB is trying to build a coherent army whose "big picture" is similar for different skill levels. I think this is something WotDG and DL do well, and is part of their success.

      But those details are easy to change, and are not necessarily problematic for homebrews anyway.
      The important thing is that you have a clear vision, feel and direction that isn't just "MOAR".
      And there are definitely ideas that I think could be tweaked and used in LABs to manifest certain concepts/feels.
      For that I take my hat off to you :hat:
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    • Exalted Champion wrote:

      Really like all of your ideas. Especially the change to wildhorns and the briar beasts.

      Though i would suggest to keep at least a few units with Primal Instinct in the book. For example the minotaur fraction or at least the mino characters.

      Also i would like to see the devastating charge (- 1 to wound) somewhere. Maybe for razortusks and longhorns.
      Indeed minos were among the most difficult to replace Primal Instinct while staying at a similar or higher eliteness! It is so powerful on them, it really created a hole to remove it. Yet I feel they really need to lose it, as this completely insane damage output is locks them in a glasshammer role which is the last thing bodybuilded bulls should be.
      And you are right that mino characters could still use it: if cranking up minos to res 5 does the trick, it doesn't work for the characters. Maybe they could get Hatred or PI which have proven their worth, but for the sake of experiment and because it feel more "bull-like" I want to see where Rage can bring them. On the normal minos it is not much , it'll be maximum +2 Att per unit but on characters it can be nice and work well in combination with Twin Hunger, making them more likely to regain health the more HP they lose.

      For the Devastating Charge (-1 to wound), it became Dev.Chg (+1 Res) and works on goat-like units (wildhorns & longhorns) to represent the legendary headbutt goats can deal! They reach Res 5 on charge which is huge for troops. -1 to wound would only make a difference against Str 8+, so picking this slightly weaker +1 Res instead prevents a further cost increase.
      Razortusks are at the soft cap of res 5 already, and hit strongly already: their issue currently is that they can break too easily as soon as they fluff their attacks, hopefully Dev. Charge (Stubborn) can help with that an bring a Boar feeling to them. It is extremely good on the chariot especially (more than I'd like :/)


      DanT wrote:

      I like the direction and vision of this a lot :thumbup:
      Good job @Idum


      If I'm being more picky, I think some of the detailed mechanical implementations and concepts would be more powerful than you imagine, and the resultant pricing would exacerbate some of the skill curve issues.
      One of the key things that makes for a good LAB is trying to build a coherent army whose "big picture" is similar for different skill levels. I think this is something WotDG and DL do well, and is part of their success.

      But those details are easy to change, and are not necessarily problematic for homebrews anyway.
      The important thing is that you have a clear vision, feel and direction that isn't just "MOAR".
      And there are definitely ideas that I think could be tweaked and used in LABs to manifest certain concepts/feels.
      For that I take my hat off to you :hat:
      Thank you! I'd be interested to read which concepts are problematic/too strong. In the second read (hotfix) as I re-read the book with a fresh mind several OP concepts appeared that were uninteded, I'm 100% sure there are more - including several I'd not be able to spot on my own - and maybe the other extreme too with weak/crippling mechanics that I rate incorrectly.

      For pricing it was made by benchmarking old vs. new versions against fixed profiles, making some assumptions (increasing the chance of getting charges due to being beasts for instance). So that part is definitely inaccurate as it relies on the current AB balanc and only looks at a limited scope. For the other rules that don't directly relate to melee prowess or are context-dependant (jabber, briar beast) this was costed based on gut feeling only! Same for the items, of which some are definitely too good for their points.

      Tsuandan Warring States
      Cathay for T9A!
      ----------
      :totems: BH Homebrew :totems:
      Beastly Beasts without PI!
    • I love a lot of the ideas here
      brutal instincts (especially love the fact the Lord characters have only a 6+ since they already have the +1s. Like its variety usage by different types of beasts.)
      love the hereditary. It's a little complicated, but the forcing paired weapons on people feels grand.
      Like the feral hounds

      Don't like how over burdened wild horns are. Impact hits, dev charge resistance (which for versamilitude reasons, what is that supposed to be.)
    • Yes the brutal insticts gradation from 4+ (with hereditary) to 6+ is exactly that! For the hereditary I am not so happy with the wording, English isn't my native language but even then it feels clumsy. I'm sure there is a way to re-write it that would feel easier.

      For wildhorns, initially instead of impact hits they had Dev Chg (+1 Att, +1 Res) to make them a bit less rules-heavy but it is really the impact hits that represent best their heabutting into melee. In the end it has a limited impact considering their Str 3 (and even for longhorns the impacts get dwarfed by their actual axe-swinging!), so it is mostly fluffy and I strongly hesitate to remove it for simplification. In the end it stayed since those archetypes (goat/bull/boar) are consistent over several model, while in the end the book has no special armour, weapon, and few special rules so hopefully the overall bok isn't too overwhelming. This rule bloat is definitely something to look after though.

      The +1 Res is linked to this entry into melee with a heabutt: since they're goat/ram like I expect their skullcap is similarly reinforced, letting them endure mighty blows provided they are the ones charging and that the enemy has no choice but to hit at their skull: if they lower their head enough on charge, for the first round that is probably the case, and after that charge they switch back to human-like posture to swing their weapons and expose their body more, thus not benefitting anymore from this natural protection.
      A more detailed/fluffy rule would be Impact Hits (1) + Dev.Chg (+1 Res, Agi always 0) to represent Impact → Enemy swinging at the only exposed part (wildhorns skull) → Wildhorns back to standing position for their normal attacks. But that felt like too much for too little difference at the end!

      Only the goat types have it since it is a quite unique feature that bulls or boars do not have (being naturally tankier & fighting differently). And even then, the Beast Lord & Chief & Soothsayer do not have it since they are already Res 5, which I considered as the maximum "bone resistance" that could be achieved so they don't reach Res 6 on charge! Centaurs don't have it since they cannot lower their head enough for it to become the only viable target, their big horse body cannot be hidden so they don't get it either. I hope it makes sense :)

      Tsuandan Warring States
      Cathay for T9A!
      ----------
      :totems: BH Homebrew :totems:
      Beastly Beasts without PI!

    • Exalted Champion wrote:

      @Idum

      I think the toughness thing as the main defense/protection should be an army wide thing.

      How do you see minotaurs or razortusks tanky? They have almost zero armour and no other saves.
      For mino and razor, I wanted them to be able to take charges as well so some elements are (less) hyper-dependent on the charge. They are not unkillable (at all) but their Res 5 ensures a much improve survivability against small arms fire and anti-monstruous beast/infantry artillery, such as EOS rockets (their preferred targets are now chariots & big monsters, especially jabberwock) and unless facing a unit designed to kill them like HE Lions Guard, they will be able to hit even if they attack last.

      Further increasing to Res 6, even just on charge, woulf be a pip too much as they would become unmanageable for everything with Str 4 or less. Importantly too, their role in the army would be slightly changed from now: wildhorns and longhorns can absolutely destroy units on their own, including elites as long as you get the charge. So units able to pin down of be a little more forgiving about missing the charge are important too.

      Yesterday I did a mock battle to test out some elements.
      On the BH side:
      • Beast chief, BSB, GTB, Mithril, PW, Twin Hunger: meant to capitalize on lethal strike & HP gain to become more an more tanky (hero's heart on Str 4 cancels out Brutal Instinct by making everything a flat Str 5)
      • Beast Lord, General, dest. call, hero's heart: intent was to have a maximum of Str 5/6 AP 3 attacks. Retrospectively, Blessed inscr. would have been a better choice!
      • Mongrel Chief, Bow, light arm. w/ alc alloy, shield, Guile of the Downtrodden: meant to operate out of General's bubble to provide a Dis safety net to runaway Hounds and Mongrels.
      • Soothsayer, master shaman, seed: "the classic"
      • Mongrels x30, FCG, spears, aether icon: pinning & obj. grabbing
      • Wildhorns x15 x3, Musician, PW: trying to sneak on flanks and hit strongly. The more units the more likely some of them get a charge.
      • Briar Beasts x2: if enemy troops close to a forest, they'd not come in and just deal the aura damage unless they can appear on a flank or rear of some unit
      • Centaurs x6 + Hounds x3, lance, throwing weapons: turn around using their TW, charging down if a good opportunity shows
      • Feral Hounds x5 x2: blocking lines of sight, triggering charges, threatening weak units... potentially redirection if the general or mongrel hero is around to ensure they don't run when a charge is declared on them
      • Longhorns x20, FCG, GW, banner wild herd: damage dealers along with minos, GW + Wild herd don't combine so well (overkill)
      • Minotaurs x6, PW, Musician, Champion: ideally they're meant to be a missiles magnet and have enough surviving models to charge down and badly dent even big units
      • Jabberwock: expected to fly around, using its aura to have enemies damage themselves or cut units off their BSB/General.
      On the EOS side, by lack of time I took the models readily available in tray to form a basic but possible list:
      • Inquisitor, blessed steel, horse, shield, hammer witches, witch guard
      • Marshal, BSB, tactician, shield, aether x2, death warrant, willow ward
      • Prelate, General, PW, altar, Plate, alch alloy, crown autocracy, hero's heart, dragon staff
      • Wizard, master cosmo
      • H.Inf x20, musician
      • H.Inf x33, FCG, halberd, legion standard
      • L.Inf x12, handgun
      • L.Inf x15, xbow
      • Militia x10 x2; irregulars
      • Arc. Engine, Arc. Shield
      • Imp. Guard x30, FCG, GW
      • Reiters x5, brace of pistols
      • Rocket battery
      • Tank


      The battle ended in a draw, with a wildhorn unit sitting on an objective but unable to claim it. I won't detail much the tactics, it was a mock battle vs. self so that's not really interesting. Of note though:
      • The switch to Beast type feels a LOT better and cranks up their aggressivity significantly, allowing long charges en masse starting turn 2 with good chances.
      • @DanT Anarchy & Mayhem is too strong on light troops :S For longhorns & mino it is fine and thematic but for wildhorns & centaurs, easier than I thought to exploit and it feels wrong that 6-7 guys (wldhorns with Res 5 on charge don't really fear retaliation) can break large block on their own.
        • A&M rework to not let Light troops break steadfast (although they could still get it themselves) + revert Drunkard to its original self so centaurs can be built to break steadfast (drunk).
        • For Wildhorns, they should have some way to achieve it too but that's just over the top if they could also show up drunk, plus it doesn't synergize with ambush. I was thinking to exceptionally add a rule for them, letting large units (>=20 models) break steadfast: it would represent the fact that if their charge is too disorganized to effiiently disrupt the ranks, large units make up for it with the sheer amount of bodies. It would also give a role to larger units, otherwise not really interesting.
      • Brutal instinct works and really felt good when it proc'ed, dealing less damage on weak targets than primal instinct but making both mongrel & wildhorns perfectly viable even against stronger, armoured units - and not just on charge.
      • Briar beast works well but needs a rewording. Probably by using "Curse Tokens", especially to let two beasts emerge from the same forest (which is currently impossible due to how it is worded).
      • Jabberwock's aura is completely nullified by Hatred. I'm thinking about adding in the rule that to-hit rolls of '1' cannot be rerolled, so it would make the model potent in all cases while here it was a dead weight. That'd also make sense that hate-driven enemies would be more likely to hit their own instead of less.
      • @Exalted Champion Minotaurs were less resistant than I thought. Only 3 1/2 models survived the shooting while this EOS list is not really shooting-heavy; they still put a huge dent on the IG so they lived up to expectations but barely. From EOS perspective however they seemed threatening, like a 36t truck charging arriving full speed. We need to keep an eye on them, I still want to believe they are good as such and that maybe it was just bad rolls or unfavourable situation (see below "hereditary").
      • Longhorns finished of the IG, with difficulty due to the magic boosts on IG. It was a 60 vs. 40% chance the beasts won, but they didn't and broke off :) luckily the IG didn't catch up and got chaffed by a briar beast, letting the longhorns rally and charge again. This time they passed right through the IG + Marshal!
      • Hereditary is good but the aura version is dangerous, I'd advise pondering the situation really well before using! IG in Line formation with Battle Focus (Death Warrant) + Hatred really, really don't need PW & Brutal Instinct on top <X
      • Very happy with the Mongrel Chieftain. It filled its role perfectly and seemed well balanced. Even in melee it performed fine, its special item making it viable against several targets. Probably it should be changed to "Melee Weapon" instead of only hand weapon, so the character could be a bit more versatile even. Interestingly, in this game it felt impactful but not quite enough to justify specifically target it, and so it felt fluffy!

      Tsuandan Warring States
      Cathay for T9A!
      ----------
      :totems: BH Homebrew :totems:
      Beastly Beasts without PI!
    • I dont like, without pi or more strength that army has no option to win combats, it is an army that does not kill and that in the hands of a player who is not capable of loadin will hardly obtain benefits
      one more point of r will not lead to to be better


      I thought that hatred and fortitude was a good solution to replace pi and that the idea was well received, because a block of W that is rammed does not win a combat in life, try that codex against the new one of dark elves

      The post was edited 1 time, last by clorens ().

    • clorens wrote:

      I dont like, without pi or more strength that army has no option to win combats, it is an army that does not kill and that in the hands of a player who is not capable of loadin will hardly obtain benefits
      one more point of r will not lead to to be better


      I thought that hatred and fortitude was a good solution to replace pi and that the idea was well received, because a block of W that is rammed does not win a combat in life, try that codex against the new one of dark elves

      I would have been surprised if you supported this version, as it is opposed to what you would like to push - so this is fair :)

      Removing PI was a direct consequence of the vision for BH in this book: a mobile, aggressive (the most aggressive one in the game) army with small packs that wins through board control, good melee damages, bursts of violence, and brutal charges. All that with a mix of beastly features and malevolent cunning. Basically, they are a smart army that contains its ferocity, set up basic but efficient plans only to unleash their rage as they ram into their foes.

      Primal Instinct (PI) directly contradicts this vision on 2 keys aspects:
      • It gives a very predictable yet flat damage output, far from the intended beastly mania and unpredictability.
      • It increases dependency on General & BSB, tying the army to a bubble while they should aim for board control.
      The replacement (Brutal Instinct + Battle Focus) triggers without Discipline test allowing BH units accross the table to be a threat on their own right. Additionally, instead of flattening the output it expands it in 2 directions: number of hits, and Str/AP. Not only that feels genuinely good when it triggers, but it also allows them to be dangerous to more types of targets: higher Res & Arm, horde-type, etc.

      The standard Wildhorns with Brutal Instinct (5+) are in fact much closer to Str 4 AP 1 (Str 5 AP 2 with banner) than their profile suggests. Regarding pure damage output, if you are interested I can give the details maths for each entry against all standard combinations, but in the end:
      Non-charging wildhorns with Brutal Instinct are slightly stronger that Wildhorns with passed PI against lightly armoured Str 3; they are 15% stronger vs. Res 3 with Plate & Res 4 with or without armour, and even stronger vs. Res 5 (although still quite ineffective!). Only versus unarmoured Res 6+ they are slightly worse since both wound on '6' only, so they're both the wrong tool anyway. This damage output is why their points went up, their stats down and they lost scoring. And in the next iteration, they'll lose part of their ability to break steradfast.

      You are 100% right regarding players not able to leverage their charge potential. This is why all entries are Beasts and why some are less charge-dependent (mongrels, bulls, characters) but in the end this is what this army is about: just like EoS players must learn to use and maintain synergies through their battleline, BH players would use the tools at their disposal to get in some charges: Beast, +1" Adv (horn aura, speed banner), many chaff units, and the sheer amount of units that want to charge - some will fail for sure, but not all (and if that is the case maybe the game should be lost!) Pushing the player to think like a BH is also the goal :)

      Good point regarding DE, I'll be testing that or welcoming any feedback on this matchup. I'd actually be more worried about a KOE (charge dependent too but with higher Adv) or DH (designed to receive charges & grind).

      As for Hatred, as @Exalted Champion pointed out it can work thematically and gameplay-wise on some units (bulls type) but giving it to everybody as a replacement of PI would end up the same as PI: steadiness and flattened damage output instead of wild and diverse. Fortitude would make them a DL copy and would not fit in this vision of BH (they are not magical creatures, at the exception of the Briar Beast... which has Fortitiude!). Putting both in the standard BH profile leads to a very, very different vision of BH for which I'd rather suggest to look at DL, but that is absolutely fair if this is your vision!


      Tsuandan Warring States
      Cathay for T9A!
      ----------
      :totems: BH Homebrew :totems:
      Beastly Beasts without PI!

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Idum ().

    • I like this. I still miss the combined units of WH and Mongrels. :) I also want toops to be able to get drunk. Enemy monsters seems still to be a problem. I wish we had some monster hunter unit in BH.

      buuuuut, I really love that you used names on rules taken from the brainstorm thread! mayhem! Anarchy! Brutal Instinct! ( and I like you added "my" version of light troop WH with ranks in as well.)


      I also really like you've made a real Beastherdy ambush rule at last. Now it just the rest left to fix it ;D like removing the uneccesary cap on unit size. The Briar beast is cool even though I think the rule is rather complex as of now. I think it could be tightened up quite a bit.


      Here we go!

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Davian ().

    • I really like this homebrew version.

      Your vision of BH is where I am leaning, more than the current rule set at this time.

      I feel you hit the sweet spot with Frenzy and Brutal Instinct to replace boring rerolls to hit.

      I also really like the ambushing Lord, as well as cheaper, ld 8 doombull which gives us distinctive general choices.. Mongrel character is just gravy. Love it. :)

      5/9 is where Totem should have been in the first place, I feel.

      I can really sense un-refined brute strength of an ox and headbutting goats in your book.

      Kudos to you!!

      Beasts should have been beasts from the get go, right?

      Just a small change suggestion.
      * Razortusks should have stubborn, period.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ahk3927 ().

    • Last week was much busier than expected, hopefully I can update Doom beasts by the end of this one [edit: I couldn't! Target by mid April]! And just to be sure those don't get buried in the brainstorming thread, I'll bookmark @Davian 's idea Longhorn Monster Hunters (and the messages right after the linked one should be seriously pondered too)

      Tsuandan Warring States
      Cathay for T9A!
      ----------
      :totems: BH Homebrew :totems:
      Beastly Beasts without PI!

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Idum ().

    • Out of curiosity I made a quick mockup game vs. DE, using the first iteration of this homebrew. DE better mobility is compensated through BH being beasts and having more units, which held up pretty well.

      The +1 to wound by itself ended up not being the biggest issue: Blades of Darag militants coupled with potentially very, very strong magic phases (altar, outcast, warlocks, BSB Adept, void talisman...), fear bubble & related synergies, and indeed ruthless efficiency on top of these... ouch! Not unbeatable, but it certainly takes a lot to take down (as it should).

      Eventually the BH won by encircling problematic units with min size light troops wildhorns, charge from anywhere but the front and win + disrupt ranks (through Anarchy & Mayhem). That felt really cheesy though, and in the next iteration along with the inclusion of several propositions I'll put in a rework for this rule and prevent Light Troops from breaking steadfast.
      Then to not completely remove this playstyle from wildhorns, they'd probably gain a rule to let them break steadfast if they have more than X models left (15? 20?). Giving them Drunkard or similar could work too but I'd rather have them being versatile on the table, being both light troop and "heavy impact" (with sufficient bodies) rather than chosing one or the other like Centaurs, to keep a distinct flavour between wildhorns and longhorns (which are the go-to heavy-duty goats, even when there are only 10 of them!)

      Tsuandan Warring States
      Cathay for T9A!
      ----------
      :totems: BH Homebrew :totems:
      Beastly Beasts without PI!

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Idum ().


    • New version is up! Download HERE, or directly from the link in the first post.

      Beyond the addition of new units, including @Davian Longhorn Hunters (renamed Jaghorn Hunters, and with a twist on their movement rule) and various changes, there are some more significant changes - such as no BSB! In the next iteration it might go to no General either but have no idea how to balance it out.

      As previously, the goal is to provide a consistent alternative book focused on a given vision of BH, described in the OP. All propositions in it are up to discussion and meant to be tested and have fun!

      Changelog:
      Display Spoiler
      DOOMBEASTS – 2021/04/23

      Army Rules

      • Mixed Units: added general rules for mixed units
      • Herd Spirit: BH unit must reroll break test when multiple BH units are engaged in a combat
      • BSB: removed from the army, effect split among champions (totem bearer) & army rule (herd spirit)
      Special Rules

      • Drunkard: revert to standard rule
      • Totems: back to 4/8, to keep an average magic phase while 5/9 combined with master soothsayer and seed of the dark forest are stronger than intended. Totems now also enable Panic rerolls, and characters with one gain Channel (1).
      Special Items

      • Guile of the Downtrodden: cc weapons instead of hand weapon only
      • Eye of the storm: spells aiming at target instead apply to all units within 6” of it (if any, otherwise on target as intended)
      • Predatory Growth: removed (absorbed by Heathen Tree)
      • Bane of Civilization: new banner mimicking, and synergizing with Heathen Tree
      • Hereditary: prevents from using ranged weapon, to keep consistent with bestial rage idea; range reduced to 12” to balance out.
      General

      • Various costs adjustments
      • Jabberwock: Aura of Madness additionally prevents nearby enemies from rerolling ‘1’ to hit
      • Wildhorn Herds: units of 20+ models can disrupt enemy units
      • Mongrel Raiders: gains Poison Attacks option
      • Briar Beast: mechanic reworked to rely on Curse Tokens, gains Insignificant
      • Jaghorn Hunters: Longhorn-like unit specialized in hunting large monsters
      • Heathen Tree: Immobile unit, aura debuff and board control
      Units

      • Cyclops: shot reworked, now a targeted ranged attack using Dis i/o Res.


      [Edit: hotfix to re-adjust the page numbering on the summary]

      Tsuandan Warring States
      Cathay for T9A!
      ----------
      :totems: BH Homebrew :totems:
      Beastly Beasts without PI!

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Idum ().

    • I am loving a lot of new changes you've made on the most recent update.

      Mixed unit is huge for me, oh how I missed it so much~

      New Longhorn unit also sounds very interesting as well.

      New cyclops! I really love the character snipping tool you've given it!

      No BSB sounds crazy, but I can clearly see you've created enough pathways to earn re-roll on break test without one.

      No General/BSB will really help BH to spread the floor.

      Looking forward to your next iteration~