Undead cultists?

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    • Undead cultists?

      Just wondering if there's any room in the cultist supplement for one of the cultist variants to be be undead?

      That pirates of carribean film series had cursed undead, which T9A doesn't really have representation for. In rules, they'd just gain Undead (and maybe not even gain fearless).

      And cursed undead aren't really necromancers or vampires or otherwise knowledgable of undead, they'd just be mortals that are stuck in unlife. So it wouldn't require them to be all that different from regular cultists.

      Mostly, it sounds fun to model.
    • Model-wise, totally awesome idea for conversions.

      But I wonder if this would make sense fluff wise for an army of cultists. From what I understand, supernals (including daemons) are being of the immaterial world that cross into our plane by using matter as a vessel. They make or steal a body, if you will.
      Undead - least the animated corpse kind - look like sort of the opposite. Material bodies whose souls have crossed the veil into the immaterial world that are reanimated by evocation-like magic.

      Now let's assume as you say that their souls have been called back into their decaying bodies through the curse. Why would they seek daemons? And why would daemons bother with them, if they don't provide bodies to possess?

      Wouldn't the undead pirates make more sense as a supplement to other factions (VC)?
    • Shlagrabak wrote:

      Model-wise, totally awesome idea for conversions.

      But I wonder if this would make sense fluff wise for an army of cultists. From what I understand, supernals (including daemons) are being of the immaterial world that cross into our plane by using matter as a vessel. They make or steal a body, if you will.
      Undead - least the animated corpse kind - look like sort of the opposite. Material bodies whose souls have crossed the veil into the immaterial world that are reanimated by evocation-like magic.
      You saw pirates of the caribbean, right? They weren't souless undead, they were mortals cursed to not die, and with the curse lifted, they resumed being mortals.

      So i would assume that if they will "one day" regain their humanity, then they could bargain their immortal soul with a patient daemon that was willing to wait for their curse to be lifted and for them to die as mortals....

      I mean, the premise of daemonic summoning is that the people are desperate, right? Cursed humans are pretty deperate. And daemons don't have the same concept of time that mortals do, so they can afford to wait.

      As for them being pirates, nah, that was their film. I'm only borrowing the cursed mortals concept, not the pirate theme. Players can decide if they have naval cultists or terrestrial cultists.

      Anyway, just a thought.
    • An undead cultist would not be part of the DL/WDG/cultists universe, they would be part of the VC/UD. Undeath is a specific condition with a precise definition in T9A - it involves putting a soul into a corpse, either by vampire necromancy or some other condition affecting a population, in the case of an undying dynasty. The Dark Gods do not create or control undead creatures.

      Let me know if that answers the question, happy to expand as necessary.
    • Krokz wrote:

      Would a Vampire have a Cult that worships and summons dark gods?
      No. We've made these two worlds quite separate. Vampires are pathologically opposed to all religions and gods, and that includes dark gods.


      Krokz wrote:

      Can Daemons possess zombies or vampires?
      Hm. Technically I suppose so. Daemons can possess any physical object, so much like a living person they would be taking control of the undead vessel from the soul that already inhabits it. However, I do not think this is something we should see often. Maybe as a one-off very special case, but generally we don't want daemons and undead to be too closely associated. Also bear in mind that a vampire or necromancer would probably simply abandon a corpse if it got possessed by a daemon, leaving it to be daemon-only, and conversely a daemon would have little reason to desire a rotting corpse when it could have a stronger living vessel.
    • thedarkfourth wrote:

      The Dark Gods do not create or control undead creatures.

      Let me know if that answers the question, happy to expand as necessary.

      The Lemure is supposed to be mix-up-able with zombies, so there's that too. That's part of the Lemure fluff.

      But regarding your statement, is it that the dark gods "Cannot" create/control undead, or that they "Do not" create/control undead?

      Furthermore, where do undead fit into the Father Chaos vs Mother Cosmos scenario? Surely undead are not minions of mother Cosmos....?
    • Chronocide wrote:

      But regarding your statement, is it that the dark gods "Cannot" create/control undead, or that they "Do not" create/control undead?
      Probably both. We don't have any mechanism for gods or supernals practicing necromancy - we have never discussed that, so I'd say that gods can't create undead. Additionally, the dark gods would not want to do so - they gain nothing by it, their goals are chaos and destruction, not returning life to things they already killed.

      Chronocide wrote:

      Furthermore, where do undead fit into the Father Chaos vs Mother Cosmos scenario? Surely undead are not minions of mother Cosmos....?
      Undead are definitely aligned with neither side. As I say, the only ways they are created is by necromancers in the Mortal Realm (normally vampires, who are opposed to everything in the immortal realm, including chaos and cosmos), or by a unusual situation in which the immortal realm becomes closed to a certain population, causing them to be stuck as an undying dynasty. In both cases, undead are aligned only with themselves.
    • I get the impression they are desperate individualists. Be they actual creations closer to chaos magic (or order magic?), they hold no reverence and perhaps even additional distaste to the theological implications.

      I kinda like the idea of a necromancer trying to build the daemonic to their minions to get extra oomph. But that would be an undead supplement and also can just be found in other medias.
    • thedarkfourth wrote:


      Chronocide wrote:

      Furthermore, where do undead fit into the Father Chaos vs Mother Cosmos scenario? Surely undead are not minions of mother Cosmos....?
      Undead are definitely aligned with neither side. As I say, the only ways they are created is by necromancers in the Mortal Realm (normally vampires, who are opposed to everything in the immortal realm, including chaos and cosmos), or by a unusual situation in which the immortal realm becomes closed to a certain population, causing them to be stuck as an undying dynasty. In both cases, undead are aligned only with themselves.
      Was under the impression that all of T9A's reality falls under either mother cosmos or father chaos. How are the undead exempt from this?
    • thedarkfourth wrote:

      That's not really true. Most factions fall somewhere in between or are not particularly related to either - elves and other factions that use cosmology do so because they find a balance between chaos and cosmos, for example. It's only really the SA and WDG/DL which are strongly aligned.
      Really? Was under the impression that the entire mortal plane was Mother's Cosmos domain, hence why the minons of father chaos can't remain in the mortal plane.

      Not that the domain being mother cosmos' means that the mortals factions actually server her (or are even aware of her)
    • Yes, metaphysically the mortal plane is cosmos and the immortal is chaos, though there are a lot of nuances. As you say, the beings that live on each side don't necessarily "serve" or care about that distinction - many supernals serve cosmos and many mortals serve chaos. So if you're asking about alignment, undead are aligned to neither "side". If you're asking about their metaphysical constitution, undead are the same as living beings - they have a physical body made of mortal matter, and they are animated by a soul, made of magic. The only difference is that an undead being's soul and body are not connected in the same way as living people (vampires themselves are an exception). You'll note that this is a very different category to daemons, which are supernals, made purely of magic, that directly serve dark gods which in turn directly serve Chaos, each being caught up in the will and objectives of the more powerful beings above it.
    • thedarkfourth wrote:

      Yes, metaphysically the mortal plane is cosmos and the immortal is chaos, though there are a lot of nuances. As you say, the beings that live on each side don't necessarily "serve" or care about that distinction - many supernals serve cosmos and many mortals serve chaos. So if you're asking about alignment, undead are aligned to neither "side". If you're asking about their metaphysical constitution, undead are the same as living beings - they have a physical body made of mortal matter, and they are animated by a soul, made of magic. The only difference is that an undead being's soul and body are not connected in the same way as living people (vampires themselves are an exception). You'll note that this is a very different category to daemons, which are supernals, made purely of magic, that directly serve dark gods which in turn directly serve Chaos, each being caught up in the will and objectives of the more powerful beings above it.
      Ah, gotcha. Yes, i was asking about their "metaphysical constitution," as you described it.

      So is the logic that the Dark Gods can't create/benefit from undead because they are part of the Mother Cosmos, at least in a metaphysical capacity?

      And regarding souls, are the possessed humans considered to have souls, or has the daemon replaced/consumed their soul?

      Thank you for the answers, by the way. Been enjoying this conversation.
    • Chronocide wrote:

      So is the logic that the Dark Gods can't create/benefit from undead because they are part of the Mother Cosmos, at least in a metaphysical capacity?
      Sort of, but also they're just not that interested in that kind of power, they're much more interested in getting their own supernals across to the mortal realm or (in the case of warriors) inflicting destruction by themselves, not via puppets. Plus necromancy is very rare and difficult to learn - very few cultists would have access to it. A supernal couldn't do it because as soon as they leave the mortal plane, all their raised zombies would collapse. Technically you could imagine a situation where a rogue cultist learns necromancy and uses it for the purposes of a DG cult, but this should be exceptionally rare, probably not represented in the rules.

      Chronocide wrote:

      And regarding souls, are the possessed humans considered to have souls, or has the daemon replaced/consumed their soul?
      I think we usually portray this as a daemon "suppressing" the original soul, so it's still in there, but the daemon takes control of the vessel away from it. The original soul can still regain control after the daemon leaves.

      Palmu wrote:

      Whaddya mean T9A doesn't have representation for the sort of undead the crew from Pirates of the Caribbean are?
      Zombie pirates are definitely possible - they just wouldn't be linked to the dark gods. A special kind of zombie that is only revealed by moonlight and that returns to life after a curse is lifted? That's probably too much magic. When a curse is lifted on an undying dynasty, the souls should then be free to pass into the afterlife - the dead bodies would not return to regular life.