Pinned SA LAB Team and guidelines

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  • SA LAB Team and guidelines

    Greetings,

    I'm sure you have all been eagerly awaiting news of the promised SA LAB and I bring glad tidings (and lots of juicy info too!).

    First off, the team has been chosen! Congrats to all of them:

    Coordinator: @lawgnome

    RT Rep: @thedoctor,

    BGT Rep: @thedarkfourth,

    Designers: @IHDarklord, @Odoamar, and @Haemoglobin

    They will be the primary designers on the book but ACS have been promised full involvement so you can be sure that community ideas and feedback will be considered.

    Speaking of feedback and suggestions I can also announce the full LAB guidelines which can be found here in the spoiler:

    Display Spoiler




    Army Composition




    Saurian ancient armies are a versatile race that can field a variety of units, but which primarily exert their strength through powerful magic and magical artifacts, fearsome beasts and monsters, and diverse infantry which fill numerous roles in the army. Infantry is varied from strong ranked units, to swift and flexible skirmishers, and is ubiquitous to the army. Each race should have a clear and purposeful role which meshes together to form a varied and flexible army. While they should have access to some elite units, the army as a whole should have only a moderate eliteness level. Units should have a “niche” in the army based on the role they perform (not target specialisation like DL, but more "this is a shooty unit"/"this is a mobile unit"/"this is an anvil unit”). Generally units should not be jack of all trades but instead should have to work together using their unique skills (as opposed to DL, where each unit broadly does its own thing).

    Saurian Armies should be able to score points both at range and in combat. However to reflect their current level of technology, shooting should generally be short ranged for its weapon type. Long range avoidance should not be a playstyle available to the army.

    While available, cavalry should not be a focus of this army, and should not be present in the core section. Monstrous Cavalry should be about the beast, not the handler, which should be present more as a source of control rather than damage. In general cav should be average to below average in terms or armor, their current level of technology typically does not lend itself well to heavy plate mail.

    Cavalry should not be the army's primary source of chaff. Chariots should be rare to nonexistent, with monstrous beasts filling this role instead.

    The army should have access to a number of monsters which supplement their infantry and provide shock troops. These should be available in both the Character and Monster section. Typically these will require a saurain handler/rider as most monsters are tamed and not particularly intelligent. Monsters can have a variety of “roles” in the army, and do not have to be pure damage dealers. They can also carry magical relics, artillery or provide other auxiliary roles for the saurians.



    Play styles




    The Primary Playstyles of SA should be:

    Style A: Mixed arms: SA is primarily a mixed arms army, but does everything in a unique fashion. This army should consist of a strong Infantry core which forms the backbone of the army supported up by magic dealers and monsters. This army should be able to win through shooting, combat and magic combined. Armies will not necessarily look like their human equivalent and can consider unique or novel approaches to achieve this concept.

    Style B: Monster mash: SA should be able to field a variety of large and gigantic dinosaurs and ferocious beasts which support an infantry core to form a strong combat list. This should not be able to strongly play avoidance shooting.





    Style C: Short range avoidance: Skink based armies with strong mobility and shooting focus. This type of army uses its mobility to dance around enemies. This style should be heavily focused on skinks and their mounts. However, this build should not have the ability to field a completely mounted/skirmishing army. In addition, access to the best leadership and magic options should require at least a portion of the army to be more traditionally static.



    Racial Design Notes


    Overall the saurians should be viewed as subspecies of the same race rather than completely different races living together, and there should be a feeling of shared physiology between the races. Saurians are very communal creatures and the different races (whether by accident or design) harmonize well in their society. They have the ability to communicate nonverbally with one another over short distances. They are not innately magical. The three main races are typically of equal intelligence and are equally valued in society. (While they may gravitate toward different roles due to their physiology, longevity or natural talents, Skinks, Gila, and Caiman can be found in all levels of society and in general saurian society has avoided the formation of a caste system.) Cutal are somewhat distinct and after their recent reemergence they are still “finding their home” in saurian society.


    Gila

    Main traits are slow, bulky, tough, resilient. They should be on par physically with an orc or dwarf. They are equal in intelligence to skinks though less nimble and dexterous. All-round infantry with good physicality but not highly skilled . Though they are born physically strong, most of them do not train full time as soldiers, but instead take up that role in times of war. They have natural armor which may be supplemented.


    Skink

    Generally fragile. These are nimble and will be the best at handling monsters and equipment. Main traits are maneuverable, agile and with poor resilience. Weedy and annoying (but not sneaky per se). Generally less willing to stand up to terrifying monsters or stand firm under withering fire, the skinks are generally less steadfast and more panicky than Gila. In prolonged combats they rely on numbers rather than skill to try to bring foes down. In general their statline should be considerably worse than a normal human.


    Caiman

    Somewhat alien even for Saurians. More strong and powerful even than the Gila though not necessarily more skilled. They have an affinity for water and are more aquatic than their reptilian brethren. They are of average intelligence for the species. They are the longest lived of the 3 main Saurian species and one of their main roles is maintaining the wisdom and traditions of the species. Caimans are very contemplative of the world around them and value patience and consideration more than even other saurus. They tend to be slow to panic, and other saurus often view this as fearlessness (or stupidity). Consistent with a focus on both internal as well as external improvement, they often spend long periods of their free time writing unusual poetry or building strange art These creatures often spend time outside war exploring poetry, art and philosophy (consider a societal role similar to late era samurai).


    Cuatl


    Physically very frail but with very large brains. They are not innately magical but instead have learned and surpassed their former teachers. They have developed powerful telepathic abilities and most are strong spellcasters. They are rarely trusted by other saurians to take leadership positions, and should rarely be the primary source of leadership in the army. They are the most rare of the saurian species having been absent in the culture for thousands of years, until recently.



    Equipment




    Weapons should be generally shorter ranged but mobile. Given their often remote habitats, they should not utilize wheeled vehicles. Instead they utilize ancient and arcane devices to fill this roll, often mounted on monstrous beasts instead of chariots or wheeled vehicles. They have plentiful access to many magical items both in the equipment section and in unit entries.

    While they were once a dominant race, they have technologically regressed, and should not have access to black-powder weapons or war machines more complex than simple catapults and bolt throwers. As metal working is not their strong point, they should generally not have above average AP. While many saurians sport natural armor, it should be very rare for this to be heavily supplemented and generally armor 6 should be very rare.

    Saurians among the races have developed a unique understanding of magnets and magnetism and have in some cases harness this power for war. They have used it to create constructs that help navigate the difficult terrain and which can do great damage to armored enemy rank, among other things. This may be explored by the task team and incorporated into special weapons or rules.

    The book may explore one or two unique weapons (blowpipes, clubs, macuahuitl, etc).



    Movement


    Should have access to very flexible movement play-styles especially on skinks and monsters. In general special movement and deployment abilities should be less available to gila and caiman who generally form ranked units. In general the army should be laterally mobile than straight line fast, but the army as a whole isn't slow. Gila tend to have speeds slower than a typical elf while skinks are typically faster than an elf. These traits should in general be carried onto their respective mounts (ie Gila should not have high movement or mobility, while skink mounts should).

    Skirmish and light troops should be common in skink units, but should not be present in core unless other measures are taken to limit anti avoidance core play(ie category allowance, etc). .




    Special Deployment




    Should have access to many special deployment styles, mainly in skink units. These should be rare or absent from gila and caiman units. In general the army should be above average in special deployment and should have access to all types of special deployment (scout, ambush, vanguard) to represent its guerilla warfare style of combat.




    Leadership


    Overall they should not have excessively high ld. Given their communal nature and lack of a centralized authority, typically the leadership bubble should not be paramount for the armies function. But given their communal nature and their ability to draw support from their neighbours and allies, other mechanics to represent this can be explored.

    Skinks however are less physically built for warfare and should be typically less willing to stand and fight head on than Gila or Caiman. To this end the leadership mechanics should ensure that they remain less reliable than an average human. They are the exception to the need for a leadership bubble.

    Caimans are unaffected by what happens around them, makes them appear brave and disciplined. They are also often loners.

    Cuatl are generally distrusted in saurian society and so should not be integral to the armies leadership.




    Characters




    All major races should have character representation. While specific characters may provide buffs for a unit, these should be minor and not rise to the level of EOS unit synergies. SA should have an above average special item section to represent the treasured items saved from ages long past, though characters should not carry above average magic item allowances.


    Cuatl

    Background emphasizes that Cuatl are mistrusted and usually not allowed to lead Saurian armies. There should be a notable decrease in cohesion if a Cuatl is leading. A Cuatl is feeble and slow physically and should have very limited movement ability, often depending on its allies or magnetic assist devices to get around. Cuatl are extrodiarilly intelligent and use their mental powers (eg magical protection, spellcasters, telepathy) to great effect. They are not innately magical but have learned and quickly expanded past the magic of other suarians. They have access to strong telepathic powers which are magical in nature, but can be used to do things beyond the normal Paths.


    Gila

    Gila should be the primary source of leadership in the army. Gila leaders are the exception to regular Gila in that they practice and study war full time. They should be strong warriors, but not amongst the best in the game. They should be less powerful overall than a chosen lord. They should not have extremely specialized roles like KOE heroes. Overall power level should be similar to that of an orc warlord.


    Skinks

    Skinks are less physically capable than their Gila brethren, and so typically their heroes provide support in other ways. Support casters, scouts, or in handling extremely rare or dangerous beasts. They Should not be a primary source of chaff in the army.


    Caiman

    Solo characters who often function independent of the rest of the army. moderate eliteness. Should not have mount options. These should primarily function in independent roles in the army.


    Magic


    Cuatl are in running for best single casters in the game, with high customization in the magic area (e.g. better casting, more spells, telepathic, magic defence). This does not mean Cuatl are best in each aspect of magic (offense, defense, getting spells through, augments etc), it means they have the ability to be above average in any of them but not simultaneously in all
    .
    The 3 other races are able to learn and cast magic. Other magic users are not as impressive as the Cuatl. This is an army where a single strong magic user is the norm. As the Cuatl learned their skills from the other races, the Cuatl should have access to paths unknown by other saurians, but not vice versa.

    Non Cuatl casters should just be “average” wizards without particularly innate abilities to cast.

    Given their dominance in the dawn age, Saurians still have access to many ancient and unfathomable arcane devices. They should have high ability to adjust the Magic Flux by supplementing or storing veil tokens via magic items. They should have a number of bound spells available via the use of magic items.


    Path access


    The Skinks and Gila traditionally have practiced Shamanism and Druidism which conform to their views on vitalism.

    The Cuatl were initially taught these paths after their re-emergence, but have since expanded far beyond their teachers in the realm of magical lore. Interestingly, most Cuatl have since eschewed the practice of shamanism, with many of them viewing it as a “primitive” lore that is beneath their powerful intellects, and leaving it primarily as a lore for the other races.

    Instead Most Cuatl strive to master one or more of the 4 pillars of the Mortal Realm.
    Life/Energy - Druidism
    Matter - Alchemy
    Soul - Evocation
    Magic/Veil - Divination
    The Cuatl have also evolved a highly refined magical telepathy which can help them coordinate with others, control animals, or even mislead or attack enemies, depending on the casters skill.


    Hereditary:
    Generally should reflect their complex understanding of magical nature, instead of having a feeling of brute force or raw power (unlike ogres or WDG).


    Shooting


    Skinks use short ranged shooting of light power and average skill. Death from 1000 cuts with heavy emphasis on poison shooting but limited armour penetration beyond very specific tools. They have very good ability to move and shoot.

    Gila are not prohibited from having ranged weapons but their overall inferior dexterity to skinks should be reflected in the weapons design and profile and if present at all should be rare.

    War machines are generally not used, but some heavy shooting beasts or beast mounted weapons which exist as pseudo artillery. Generally these are shorter range than their standard counterparts.

    Magnetism may be explored as a way to do ranged damage, though is not required to do so as conventional weapons are prevalent as well.



    Close Combat




    The primary combat units are grinding oriented, with good defence and decent damage output. No meaningful first turn boosts or other “burst damage” components. Generally average to below average agility should be the norm for this cold blooded and reptilian army. They should have access to generally good armor saves but this should not be an emphasis and only characters should have access to elite armor. Skill based traits (e.g. Weapon skills) should generally be average but physical traits (e.g. strength and resilience) should be above average for most units

    Skinks are poor in combat and should generally try to avoid it at all costs. When designed for combat, skinks units should seek to bog down enemy units until help can arrive. Skinks have poor physical traits for combat and should be generally unwilling to hold for long periods to time unsupported. A few skink units (especially mounted ones) can be used as support troops for combat purposes.

    Monsters and beast can be used for burst damage (impact hits or other first turn only bonuses).



    Defensive Capabilities




    Racially dependent.
    Skinks have numbers and avoiding hits as their defence, but should not be especially resistant to damage. Skinks die fast and easy when they find themselves the target of an attack and rely on numbers to make an impact.

    Other units have good resilience and armour. They can withstand attacks very well. Only average defensive weapon skill should be available to the army.

    Magic abilities/trinkets provide access to special saves of both types, however no units in the army should have innate supernal or non magical special saves.




    Synergies




    The army should have several ways to synergize. They are not martially as well trained as units of the EOS but they should have access to moderate buffing synergies in combat. Synergies typically have an arcane origin and are focused on helping allies over debuffing enemies.

    Units also work well together and due to their communal nature, there should be some minor but innate synergies to units which are functioning in harmony.

    Specifically a special leadership rule reflecting their communal nature should be considered. (The design team should feel free to think “outside the box” here in terms of racial rules and design. While not excluded from keeping the old minimized mechanic, the design team should not feel this mechanic must be maintained either).




    Main themes




    A society apart: Saurians should have a very distinct feel compared to other races , as they are much farther removed evolutionarily from the other inhabitants of the 9th age. Their approach to life, strategy and war should feel very foreign and distinct. From their racial traits, to their communal government, lack of religion, weapon technology, and completely distinct moral code. The SA book should strive to maintain a feeling that this is a completely foreign and alien race. This should be reflected in special rules, wargear, and tactics. Overall the book should emphasize the communal nature of saurians and their high valuation of living force and life energy.

    The trees have eyes: Saurian communities are typically remote and are often found in very inhospitable environments (jungles, swamps, caves, remote mountains etc). Saurians depend on and utilize these remote locations to help protect them from outside threats and have adapted their warfare to suit them. As reflected in their equipment and unit types, the saurian army should feel at home in the rough terrain, taking every advantage of their habitats to give themselves an advantage as they harry and surprise their foes. They should make heavy use of special deployment types to reflect the guerilla warfare style.

    Jurassic Park: Saurian ancients is our chance to play with dinosaurs. These beasts should be an integral part of the saurian battle plan but should also feel “cool”. While the KOE book is about the riders, the SA book should be about the beasts. From monstrous mounts, to beasts of burden, to ferocious living weapons, there should be many options to field dinosaurs of different sizes and roles in the army. They should feel weird, wild, feral, and powerful. Dinosaurs should feel integral to the army and society.

    The remnants of an age long past: Saurians are the remnants of a world spanning society which fell in the distant past. They still cling to and revere many of the vestiges of this civilization. In game this means plentiful access to magic and arcane items, both in character equipment and for units. They should have a larger than average magical item selection and have good access to bound spells, magical attacks and veil token manipulation, however these should not be innate abilities from the saurians themselves but instead granted by arcane devices or items. Often their secrets have been lost to time, (which might make them unreliable or dangerous if those who tamper with such devices. )




    This also includes much of the often requested background on the Saurian Ancients and their place in the 9th age world (nonetheless, a BG supplement like the DE one will be released ASAP). Please have a read through and if anything seems inconsistent or you have some great ideas that fit in with everything else then please post below. Your ACS team looks forward to seeing any and all feedback on this first draft of the guidelines for the most dinosaur filled LAB in the game!

    Advisery Board Member

    Organises: TA, TS and ACS. Click to apply to staff. Soon click to get Infos on Data Analysis and Balancing. Colour code for role I post in: Me, Project Statements, Staff role, "moderating"
  • First of all, congratulations to @Haemoglobin (Old SA ACS), @Odoamar and @IHDarklord on being selected to design what we all will agree on when its done, the most amazing army book the 9th age will ever see! :D (I am excited, so no.. no filters on my comments!) Together with the guidance of @lawgnome, @thedarkfourth and @thedoctor, i am sure you will do a great job!

    Second, we as ACS will be fully involved and as mentioned before in other threads and I really want to ensure that some of the ideas of the community find their place in the LAB, because honestly you have provided us already with so much great stuff! I also have full confidence in the three gentlemen who will be the lead designers that they will listen to the community and take their ideas in consideration. I have been in contact with some of them prior the LAB team announcement and they already showed involvement and asked about the topics to read where the community has provided ideas so they could read up on everything!

    Now we actually have some guidelines, we can come up with even more specific ideas that fit the guidelines! There are no bad idea's and i want to "hear"/read all of them! It might be that you disagree with some guidelines or have other ideas, so the good thing is that they are just guidelines and there's a lot possible with the correct argumentation. So if you have idea's that do not fit the guidelines, please also enlighten us with your philosophy, why you think your idea fits into the book, so the team can try to understand and maybe even argue in favor of it!

    Happy brainstorming!
    :SA:
  • Not sure about the "magnetic" part (too realistic, not that fantasy like), but the rest sounds awesome :thumbsup:

    Also quiet happy to hear, that the Cuatls should become less central pieces. Wouldnt have any problems to give Pyromancy away, if we can compensate range damage with "physical" shooting options. Redudancy of magical paths should be avoided for Masters and Adepts.

    Also missed the easter egg for the Quetzl Coatl :whistling:

    Anyway the SA book has the pontentail of the most epic book!
  • Good job, I like the way this is going!

    I am particularly fond of the leadership part, making the "inherited" General BSB LD98 Cuatl less relevant and considering something different than minimized rolls to show it (minimized roll is not bad but the option to explore is interesting).

    Looking forward to reading some news!

    @IHDarklord bravo!
    Luxembourg HBE Player Zagreb 2018
    Luxembourg HBE Player Novi Sad 2019
  • Just_Flo wrote:

    Display Spoiler




    Army Composition




    Saurian ancient armies are a versatile race that can field a variety of units, but which primarily exert their strength through powerful magic and magical artifacts, fearsome beasts and monsters, and diverse infantry which fill numerous roles in the army. Infantry is varied from strong ranked units, to swift and flexible skirmishers, and is ubiquitous to the army. Each race should have a clear and purposeful role which meshes together to form a varied and flexible army. While they should have access to some elite units, the army as a whole should have only a moderate eliteness level. Units should have a “niche” in the army based on the role they perform (not target specialisation like DL, but more "this is a shooty unit"/"this is a mobile unit"/"this is an anvil unit”). Generally units should not be jack of all trades but instead should have to work together using their unique skills (as opposed to DL, where each unit broadly does its own thing).

    Saurian Armies should be able to score points both at range and in combat. However to reflect their current level of technology, shooting should generally be short ranged for its weapon type. Long range avoidance should not be a playstyle available to the army. Excited for this, i have lived in fear that we would loose this aspect entirely, and glad to see it will be core to the army. I hope the army can overcome the hangover of toxic “cloud” builds and be creative and fun to play with and against.

    While available, cavalry should not be a focus of this army, and should not be present in the core section. Monstrous Cavalry should be about the beast, not the handler, which should be present more as a source of control rather than damage. In general cav should be average to below average in terms or armor, their current level of technology typically does not lend itself well to heavy plate mail.

    Cavalry should not be the army's primary source of chaff. Chariots should be rare to nonexistent, with monstrous beasts filling this role instead.

    The army should have access to a number of monsters which supplement their infantry and provide shock troops. These should be available in both the Character and Monster section. Typically these will require a saurain handler/rider as most monsters are tamed and not particularly intelligent. Monsters can have a variety of “roles” in the army, and do not have to be pure damage dealers. They can also carry magical relics, artillery or provide other auxiliary roles for the saurians.



    Play styles




    The Primary Playstyles of SA should be:

    Style A: Mixed arms: SA is primarily a mixed arms army, but does everything in a unique fashion. This army should consist of a strong Infantry core which forms the backbone of the army supported up by magic dealers and monsters. This army should be able to win through shooting, combat and magic combined. Armies will not necessarily look like their human equivalent and can consider unique or novel approaches to achieve this concept. Sounds really fun.

    Style B: Monster mash: SA should be able to field a variety of large and gigantic dinosaurs and ferocious beasts which support an infantry core to form a strong combat list. This should not be able to strongly play avoidance shooting.





    Style C: Short range avoidance: Skink based armies with strong mobility and shooting focus. This type of army uses its mobility to dance around enemies. This style should be heavily focused on skinks and their mounts. However, this build should not have the ability to field a completely mounted/skirmishing army. In addition, access to the best leadership and magic options should require at least a portion of the army to be more traditionally static. As said above, very please to hear this. Love them skinks.



    Racial Design Notes


    Overall the saurians should be viewed as subspecies of the same race rather than completely different races living together, and there should be a feeling of shared physiology between the races. Saurians are very communal creatures and the different races (whether by accident or design) harmonize well in their society. They have the ability to communicate nonverbally with one another over short distances. They are not innately magical. The three main races are typically of equal intelligence and are equally valued in society. (While they may gravitate toward different roles due to their physiology, longevity or natural talents, Skinks, Gila, and Caiman can be found in all levels of society and in general saurian society has avoided the formation of a caste system.) Cutal are somewhat distinct and after their recent reemergence they are still “finding their home” in saurian society.
    I am usually less interested in background, but this sounds really cool. Im very glad to hear that the army is loosing the “only for war” style of saurians, and diversifying.



    Gila

    Main traits are slow, bulky, tough, resilient. They should be on par physically with an orc or dwarf. They are equal in intelligence to skinks though less nimble and dexterous. All-round infantry with good physicality but not highly skilled . Though they are born physically strong, most of them do not train full time as soldiers, but instead take up that role in times of war. They have natural armor which may be supplemented.


    Skink

    Generally fragile. These are nimble and will be the best at handling monsters and equipment. Main traits are maneuverable, agile and with poor resilience. Weedy and annoying (but not sneaky per se). Generally less willing to stand up to terrifying monsters or stand firm under withering fire, the skinks are generally less steadfast and more panicky than Gila. In prolonged combats they rely on numbers rather than skill to try to bring foes down. In general their statline should be considerably worse than a normal human.


    Caiman

    Somewhat alien even for Saurians. More strong and powerful even than the Gila though not necessarily more skilled. They have an affinity for water and are more aquatic than their reptilian brethren. They are of average intelligence for the species. They are the longest lived of the 3 main Saurian species and one of their main roles is maintaining the wisdom and traditions of the species. Caimans are very contemplative of the world around them and value patience and consideration more than even other saurus. They tend to be slow to panic, and other saurus often view this as fearlessness (or stupidity). Consistent with a focus on both internal as well as external improvement, they often spend long periods of their free time writing unusual poetry or building strange art These creatures often spend time outside war exploring poetry, art and philosophy (consider a societal role similar to late era samurai). cool as hell.


    Cuatl


    Physically very frail but with very large brains. They are not innately magical but instead have learned and surpassed their former teachers. They have developed powerful telepathic abilities and most are strong spellcasters. They are rarely trusted by other saurians to take leadership positions, and should rarely be the primary source of leadership in the army. They are the most rare of the saurian species having been absent in the culture for thousands of years, until recently.

    I think my fav change overall. The old style of “all eggs in one basket”slann has felt like a bit of a crutch for so long, and i am happy to see it broken up. Does feel a bit like the same niche as the outcast sorc from DE though.





    Equipment




    Weapons should be generally shorter ranged but mobile. Given their often remote habitats, they should not utilize wheeled vehicles. Instead they utilize ancient and arcane devices to fill this roll, often mounted on monstrous beasts instead of chariots or wheeled vehicles. They have plentiful access to many magical items both in the equipment section and in unit entries.

    While they were once a dominant race, they have technologically regressed, and should not have access to black-powder weapons or war machines more complex than simple catapults and bolt throwers. As metal working is not their strong point, they should generally not have above average AP. While many saurians sport natural armor, it should be very rare for this to be heavily supplemented and generally armor 6 should be very rare.

    Saurians among the races have developed a unique understanding of magnets and magnetism and have in some cases harness this power for war. They have used it to create constructs that help navigate the difficult terrain and which can do great damage to armored enemy rank, among other things. This may be explored by the task team and incorporated into special weapons or rules.

    The book may explore one or two unique weapons (blowpipes, clubs, macuahuitl, etc).



    Movement


    Should have access to very flexible movement play-styles especially on skinks and monsters. In general special movement and deployment abilities should be less available to gila and caiman who generally form ranked units. In general the army should be laterally mobile than straight line fast, but the army as a whole isn't slow. Gila tend to have speeds slower than a typical elf while skinks are typically faster than an elf. These traits should in general be carried onto their respective mounts (ie Gila should not have high movement or mobility, while skink mounts should).

    Skirmish and light troops should be common in skink units, but should not be present in core unless other measures are taken to limit anti avoidance core play(ie category allowance, etc). .

    Fun.




    Special Deployment




    Should have access to many special deployment styles, mainly in skink units. These should be rare or absent from gila and caiman units. In general the army should be above average in special deployment and should have access to all types of special deployment (scout, ambush, vanguard) to represent its guerilla warfare style of combat.

    more fun,


    Leadership


    Overall they should not have excessively high ld. Given their communal nature and lack of a centralized authority, typically the leadership bubble should not be paramount for the armies function. But given their communal nature and their ability to draw support from their neighbours and allies, other mechanics to represent this can be explored.

    Skinks however are less physically built for warfare and should be typically less willing to stand and fight head on than Gila or Caiman. To this end the leadership mechanics should ensure that they remain less reliable than an average human. They are the exception to the need for a leadership bubble.

    Caimans are unaffected by what happens around them, makes them appear brave and disciplined. They are also often loners.

    Cuatl are generally distrusted in saurian society and so should not be integral to the armies leadership.


    Intrested to see how this works.

    Characters




    All major races should have character representation. While specific characters may provide buffs for a unit, these should be minor and not rise to the level of EOS unit synergies. SA should have an above average special item section to represent the treasured items saved from ages long past, though characters should not carry above average magic item allowances.


    Cuatl

    Background emphasizes that Cuatl are mistrusted and usually not allowed to lead Saurian armies. There should be a notable decrease in cohesion if a Cuatl is leading. A Cuatl is feeble and slow physically and should have very limited movement ability, often depending on its allies or magnetic assist devices to get around. Cuatl are extrodiarilly intelligent and use their mental powers (eg magical protection, spellcasters, telepathy) to great effect. They are not innately magical but have learned and quickly expanded past the magic of other suarians. They have access to strong telepathic powers which are magical in nature, but can be used to do things beyond the normal Paths.


    Gila

    Gila should be the primary source of leadership in the army. Gila leaders are the exception to regular Gila in that they practice and study war full time. They should be strong warriors, but not amongst the best in the game. They should be less powerful overall than a chosen lord. They should not have extremely specialized roles like KOE heroes. Overall power level should be similar to that of an orc warlord.


    Skinks

    Skinks are less physically capable than their Gila brethren, and so typically their heroes provide support in other ways. Support casters, scouts, or in handling extremely rare or dangerous beasts. They Should not be a primary source of chaff in the army.


    Caiman

    Solo characters who often function independent of the rest of the army. moderate eliteness. Should not have mount options. These should primarily function in independent roles in the army.

    All seems good. Glad to see skink heros wont be chaff, looking forward to more characterful incarnations characters.

    Magic


    Cuatl are in running for best single casters in the game, with high customization in the magic area (e.g. better casting, more spells, telepathic, magic defence). This does not mean Cuatl are best in each aspect of magic (offense, defense, getting spells through, augments etc), it means they have the ability to be above average in any of them but not simultaneously in all
    .
    The 3 other races are able to learn and cast magic. Other magic users are not as impressive as the Cuatl. This is an army where a single strong magic user is the norm. As the Cuatl learned their skills from the other races, the Cuatl should have access to paths unknown by other saurians, but not vice versa.

    Non Cuatl casters should just be “average” wizards without particularly innate abilities to cast.

    Given their dominance in the dawn age, Saurians still have access to many ancient and unfathomable arcane devices. They should have high ability to adjust the Magic Flux by supplementing or storing veil tokens via magic items. They should have a number of bound spells available via the use of magic items.

    Seems interesting. I kind of do hope that every kind of caster is interesting and not “normal” even if that doesn't mean in terms of magic, but maybe overall. I still hope the cuatl is a magic heavy weight.

    Path access


    The Skinks and Gila traditionally have practiced Shamanism and Druidism which conform to their views on vitalism.

    The Cuatl were initially taught these paths after their re-emergence, but have since expanded far beyond their teachers in the realm of magical lore. Interestingly, most Cuatl have since eschewed the practice of shamanism, with many of them viewing it as a “primitive” lore that is beneath their powerful intellects, and leaving it primarily as a lore for the other races.

    Instead Most Cuatl strive to master one or more of the 4 pillars of the Mortal Realm.
    Life/Energy - Druidism
    Matter - Alchemy
    Soul - Evocation
    Magic/Veil - Divination
    The Cuatl have also evolved a highly refined magical telepathy which can help them coordinate with others, control animals, or even mislead or attack enemies, depending on the casters skill.


    Hereditary:
    Generally should reflect their complex understanding of magical nature, instead of having a feeling of brute force or raw power (unlike ogres or WDG).

    some kind of magically augmented spell would be cool.




    Shooting


    Skinks use short ranged shooting of light power and average skill. Death from 1000 cuts with heavy emphasis on poison shooting but limited armour penetration beyond very specific tools. They have very good ability to move and shoot.

    Gila are not prohibited from having ranged weapons but their overall inferior dexterity to skinks should be reflected in the weapons design and profile and if present at all should be rare.

    War machines are generally not used, but some heavy shooting beasts or beast mounted weapons which exist as pseudo artillery. Generally these are shorter range than their standard counterparts.

    Magnetism may be explored as a way to do ranged damage, though is not required to do so as conventional weapons are prevalent as well.



    Close Combat




    The primary combat units are grinding oriented, with good defence and decent damage output. No meaningful first turn boosts or other “burst damage” components. Generally average to below average agility should be the norm for this cold blooded and reptilian army. They should have access to generally good armor saves but this should not be an emphasis and only characters should have access to elite armor. Skill based traits (e.g. Weapon skills) should generally be average but physical traits (e.g. strength and resilience) should be above average for most units

    would have preference for a “preditory” style close combat, but i can get on board with grinding as a backbone for the army.



    Skinks are poor in combat and should generally try to avoid it at all costs. When designed for combat, skinks units should seek to bog down enemy units until help can arrive. Skinks have poor physical traits for combat and should be generally unwilling to hold for long periods to time unsupported. A few skink units (especially mounted ones) can be used as support troops for combat purposes.

    Monsters and beast can be used for burst damage (impact hits or other first turn only bonuses).

    Skinks in close combat feels like a square peg for a round hole, but looking forward to see what creative ideas cover this.





    Defensive Capabilities




    Racially dependent.
    Skinks have numbers and avoiding hits as their defence, but should not be especially resistant to damage. Skinks die fast and easy when they find themselves the target of an attack and rely on numbers to make an impact.

    Other units have good resilience and armour. They can withstand attacks very well. Only average defensive weapon skill should be available to the army.

    Magic abilities/trinkets provide access to special saves of both types, however no units in the army should have innate supernal or non magical special saves.




    Synergies




    The army should have several ways to synergize. They are not martially as well trained as units of the EOS but they should have access to moderate buffing synergies in combat. Synergies typically have an arcane origin and are focused on helping allies over debuffing enemies.

    Units also work well together and due to their communal nature, there should be some minor but innate synergies to units which are functioning in harmony.

    Specifically a special leadership rule reflecting their communal nature should be considered. (The design team should feel free to think “outside the box” here in terms of racial rules and design. While not excluded from keeping the old minimized mechanic, the design team should not feel this mechanic must be maintained either).

    Again, am looking forward to seeing what happens here. Hope we drop cold blooded and get something more creative.




    Main themes




    A society apart: Saurians should have a very distinct feel compared to other races , as they are much farther removed evolutionarily from the other inhabitants of the 9th age. Their approach to life, strategy and war should feel very foreign and distinct. From their racial traits, to their communal government, lack of religion, weapon technology, and completely distinct moral code. The SA book should strive to maintain a feeling that this is a completely foreign and alien race. This should be reflected in special rules, wargear, and tactics. Overall the book should emphasize the communal nature of saurians and their high valuation of living force and life energy.

    The trees have eyes: Saurian communities are typically remote and are often found in very inhospitable environments (jungles, swamps, caves, remote mountains etc). Saurians depend on and utilize these remote locations to help protect them from outside threats and have adapted their warfare to suit them. As reflected in their equipment and unit types, the saurian army should feel at home in the rough terrain, taking every advantage of their habitats to give themselves an advantage as they harry and surprise their foes. They should make heavy use of special deployment types to reflect the guerilla warfare style.

    Jurassic Park: Saurian ancients is our chance to play with dinosaurs. These beasts should be an integral part of the saurian battle plan but should also feel “cool”. While the KOE book is about the riders, the SA book should be about the beasts. From monstrous mounts, to beasts of burden, to ferocious living weapons, there should be many options to field dinosaurs of different sizes and roles in the army. They should feel weird, wild, feral, and powerful. Dinosaurs should feel integral to the army and society.

    The remnants of an age long past: Saurians are the remnants of a world spanning society which fell in the distant past. They still cling to and revere many of the vestiges of this civilization. In game this means plentiful access to magic and arcane items, both in character equipment and for units. They should have a larger than average magical item selection and have good access to bound spells, magical attacks and veil token manipulation, however these should not be innate abilities from the saurians themselves but instead granted by arcane devices or items. Often their secrets have been lost to time, (which might make them unreliable or dangerous if those who tamper with such devices. )

    All looks super fun. Could not be more excited for this design style. Thanks!


    The post was edited 1 time, last by Rixitotal ().

  • Bring back the monster mounts for Cuatls! Bring back a customized Cuatl that can be more than just a floating fat frog. Trade magic ability for combat abilities in an option. Use the telepathy as something other than magic but as a buff mechanic.

    Skink Battleline!!! Please!!!

    Caimens are a huge 180 role. LoL.

    Make cavalry relevant at least.

    Like the monster themes.

    Good luck, Team.
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

  • Traumdieb wrote:

    Not sure I like the Cuatl loosing Pyro and adding Druidism since it decreases the choice of magic.

    I am not very fond of the name Gila for Saurians.

    Otherwise I like what I read.
    It will be interesting, an interesting part here is that this is just the path access selection. However, there's other part there where the cuatl will get other abilities, so never say never ^^

    However, lorewise, having a pyromancer in the middle of the forest always seemed tricky :P
    :SA:
  • must say these guidelines already look way better than the dread elves version. Atleast there is written down what options there are instead of this is not allowed and this also not. Looks like i'll change to SA as main army.

    Maybe i am less attached to the old lore but it srems like there will be alot of New and fun oppertunities in the LAB.

    Any Mention about additional core options?
    That seems to be the area where SA currently have less options then other armies
  • Play styles - no surprise here i think

    Racial Design Notes - overall very interesting, i am very curious on how the nonverbal communication and the cuatl reemergence will shape some of the rules

    - Gila - i like the name! not much to say here, hope that they lose their totems and get something else

    - Skink - "poor resilience" :/

    - Caiman - would have hope for a name change here and i dont know how the guidelines will work out, i think its quite a strange thing to have "average intelligence, traditions, poetry or building strange art, philosophy" to be associated with todays Caiman. If it would have been me, i just would have put a stamp of less intelligent brute force big version saurus warriors on them and also removed the hero option. So even if i dont feel those guidelines, im very curious on how those will turn out to be on the table and in the lore, once the LAB team is done with them.

    - Cuatl - when skinks are fragile , i dont wanna know what very frail means ;) , looking forward to the fluff of those.

    Equipment - "They have plentiful access to many magical items both in the equipment section and in unit entries." :thumbsup:
    "magnets and magnetism" ?( , gauss rifles ? ;) , floating platforms are also okay ...
    "The book may explore one or two unique weapons (blowpipes, clubs, macuahuitl, etc)." - a chance to finally forget about the cobalt clubs

    Movement - no surprise here but sad light troops are excluded from core, skirmish i understand but there might have been a way for light troops

    Special Deployment - cool finally ambushing skink units

    Leadership - no fearless caimans pls !

    Characters - minor buffs ! and above average special items !

    - Cuatl - "There should be a notable decrease in cohesion if a Cuatl is leading" interesting on how this will affect listbuilding

    - Gila - pretty basic, going to be interesting if and what small buff they will provide

    - Skinks - scouts ! and no throw away chaff, going to be great, theres a lot of potential here

    - Caiman - dont know how solo characters will fit with the racial design guidelines, also no minor buffs for caiman units i seems .. strange like the racial design notes imo.

    Magic - cuatls being great at magic , glad this was kept and also going to be interesting on how this will be turn out rulewise.
    "The 3 other races are able to learn and cast magic" this is a surprise i think, prepare for the solo caiman "average intelligence, traditions, poetry or building strange art, philosophy" + magic ! :D

    Path access - no surprise here, tablet pyro/alch would not have survived anyway i think. the current hereditary will be missed !

    Shooting - no surprise

    Close Combat - no surprise

    Defensive Capabilities - skinks no surprise; "Other units have good resilience and armour" maybe res5 caimans ?

    Synergies - great concept, also looking forward to the "outside the box" leadership rule, cold blooded could still be used in addition to that for "lesser stubborn" or "not so easy to panic" units

    Main themes - Pretty cool ! "very inhospitable environments" interesting on how this will affect units/rules; "Dinosaurs should feel integral to the army and society." :thumbsup: ; "good access to bound spells, magical attacks and veil token manipulation" i hope the LAB team goes nuts with the veil token manipulation !

    Overall im quite happy with the design guidelines .... and since the announcement is already 8 hours old ... when will we see the first spoiler ? :D
  • I find a bit odd linking the lack of AP in the army (which can be absolutly reasonable from a rule/balance/desing point of view) with the lack of ability in metal working, I mean, penetration capacity of weapons or arrows or watherver is not only due to the material they are made by. A lot of other variables came to play.
    Is this inability to work with metals needed only to justify the low AP? If so seems to me a very poor solution fluff wise.
    Especially if just few sentences later I red that they are very skilled in magnets and magnetism.
    I'm aware that not only ferromagnetic materials can generate magnetic fields, and everything that can be electrified or where the ionic charges can be localized can generate a magnetic field (like amber or other crystals) but still seems very unrealistic that they can make and use great magnets and know very poor about metal casting.
    Moreover which is the porpouse of adding this subject to the desing guidelines?
    Allowing the creation of floating structures like the palanquine or device for accelarating bullets via magnetic fileds to use as artillery? Was not sufficient to justify it with the usage of ancient tecnology or magic based stuff?
  • jb195 wrote:

    Can you confirm whether we will see a quetzacoatl, would love to see a flying monstrous beast in our army
    Impossible to say at this point.

    Though do take note SA in T9A are a global faction with global inspiration meaning more likely than not concepts would end universal rather than specific.

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