Mono-sin supplement

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  • That was really good Palmu. I do try not to be resentful of someone so hard working. I could do that if I tried. And I try not to be jealous of someone with the full title of GDT, maybe I will get there someday. I try not to be spiteful or bitter when I see you have over 5 THOUSAND more likes than ME!

    Gosh darn it, I can't keep it in, I've been bitten by the Green-Eyed Beast. I'm utterly ENVIOUS of your station, and I think it's time for you to step aside and let me claim the spot-light.

    The Sin of Envy
    Envy is the subtlest of Sins. It sneaks up on you, goodwill turned sour, interest turned to envy, counting the glimmer and gold and character of the world around you with the bitterest of eyes and wanting nothing more than to drag them down to your level, or preferably, lower. Envy is the Sin for people who want to sneak up on the things other people hold most dear, and cut it down, because surely they didn't deserve those gifts in the first place. Envy is for the sneakers, the needlers, the hecklers and the backstabbers. There's an advantage to always feeling like you're in someone else's shadow; it provides the perfect cover to slip the knife in unnoticed.

    When you play the Legion of Envy, you'll play daemons in a way that you haven't had the opportunity to before. Slinking from the shadows at the corners of the battlefield, whole formations hiding in the dark out of view or crawling from the veil itself, all with the purpose of zeroing in on your opponent's favorite models and taking them away from them. Envy uses every dirty trick in the book, between being pierced and poisoned and not knowing who is who is where, by the end of the battle your opponent won't be able to distinguish friend from foe. Playing against Envy should feel like keeping an untrustworthy eye on every part of the battle field, you have something the Daemons want and they're crawling out of the woodwork to get it. Can you keep your prized jewels safe and sound, or will they be snatched from under your nose?

    Strength: assasination, ambushes, backstabbing
    Weaknesses: fair fights, durability
  • Alexwellace wrote:

    you have something the Daemons want and they're crawling out of the woodwork to get it. Can you keep your prized jewels safe and sound, or will they be snatched from under your nose?
    This is actually doubling with Greed.
    I wouldn't put it that way.

    « Envy » is more like you want to bring people down for the sake of bringing them down, to prove that they were wrong to think of themselves so highly.
    In the end you both end up in misery, but you're still happy of that.
    « Envy » is something people in my country claim is the main factor to explain why we are not developing : too many jealous people playing witchcraft on their neighbours and relatives, « why would you progress in life when i am not ? » – thus they will curse you until you lose everything that was making you proud.
    And in the end you're both sitting in tatters, barefeet, in front of your downtrodden hovel, getting drunk with village-made alcool, with no other purpose in life, but as equals.

    So the purpose is not to take what others have and using it for yourself, but to make them lose it for no other purpose than them not having it anymore (using it for yourself would make you a superior, which is contrary to Envy's ideology of being the « Great Leveller »).


    I've always felt that « Greed » should be the sin focusing the most on psychology, creating illusions to disorientate the enemy, based on the « thirst for gold ». (Also coincidentally because of the fact that Warriors of Greed are the closest in look and appearance to those of Tzeentch.)
    Unfortunately I have not found this trait in our Daemon Legions, as the two daemons marked as « Greed » are just huge fat tanks, with nothing in common to psychology.

    What are your thoughts on that ? Would it possible to integrate this aspect a bit more ?

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  • There is an element of that in the Legion of Greed, a rather important one even, but the Daemons of Greed are largely not about temptation, though trickery and unfair deals are VERY much in their domain. That is something that could have further focus, but concessions to how Greed works on the tabletop took the main focus on this first version.

    And as that focus is being the most materialistic of the Legions, the two main Greed units are fat tanks. They're the most 'solid', whether due to how they manifest or their tendency to gather material keepsakes to themselves. These are the units which the Legion functions around as well, and the main attraction.

    Though all Legions have varying shades of 'temptation' in their domains, true Temptation lies largely in the domain of the Legion of Lust.

    But if you consider winning your battles through 'unfair' advantages and uncommon methods to be a sort of psychological trickery, then Greed will perhaps do. They do not play the game fairly.
    Life is hard when you're a skeleton
  • In the design stage we had a fair amount of trouble differentiating Envy and Greed, as both are about taking things, but they have different end goals. Greed wants to take things, and hold on to them, so you'll never have them. Envy doesn't want something...until you have it. It sees your fancy gear and shining generals and glittering banners and wants to rip them down into the mud.

    So I guess we've swapped it around from your perspective, where Envy is the psychological Sin and Greed is a very physical one. As a sub-theme of Greed we're making some fun capitalism analogies as well, so take from that what you will ;)
  • I think I mentioned it somewhere, but with Daemons there's always that tension if they are:
    1. That which inspires said sin in others.
    2. A creature that is itself the fulfillment of that sin.
    3. A creature that is singularly attempting to fulfill that sin.
    4. The creature is the negative consequence of that sin.
    Putting that aside. I'm greatly enjoying these write-ups from you, @Palmu, even though some of them make no sense to me. For the greed one, I saw what was written but if I had to right rules that fulfilled that blurb all I could think of is the ID's Arrogance and like Pharoah's Curse. This might also be why I would be not useful in a design capacity.
  • Okay my brain trying to think of a way "sour deals" can be made in the context of this game came up with the stupidest rule that might work. The first charge enemies roll on their turn has two instances of maximized all other charges have one instance of minimized. Matched with an overall tanky army this could force the enemy to engage piecemeal and more on Greed's terms. Note I don't think this is a good idea... just a possibly serviceable idea. (This is of course independent and not relevant to the ACTUAL design process, just my attempts to fathom).
  • The finish line is so close.
    I see it there, just beyond my reach.
    Taunting me further than I wanted to go, a climax to passion and effort
    that blinds me from all else but the siren song of a completed task.

    And here we are, almost at the end of our journey into the 7 Hells. I think I should make some sort of innuendo about rarely getting this deep into things, but I find the wording Elusive. We took to this supplement almost as a Feigned Flight of fancy, but quickly found ourselves Mesmerised by the themes at play, and with Heat in our Blood we set to work crafting a supplement that can truly display not only your own Descent into Sin, but also the depths you can drag your opponent too as well.

    I suppose I shouldn't tease you anymore, today we're exploring the Legions of Lust. Playing against a Legion of Lust should enact how all hot-blooded relationships work; At first, there is a courting. A flirtatious exchange, a taunt, and a flaunt, a dance of invitation and rejection just enough to invite the opponent into positions they didn't know they'd ever end up in. Then there is passion, blood and emotions run hot as the battle is joined and while all is fair in love and war, when encompassing both nothing is off the table. And finally? Someone ends up hog-tied, with a ball-gag in their mouth, not entirely sure when they agreed to this, or who invited all these other people, but what the heck, might as well enjoy the evening :muaha:

    As a Legion of Lust, you have access to some of the fastest units in the game. Combined with a few new tricks that help draw the opponent out of their shell and into your comfort zone, so to speak, Lust has unparalleled abilities to slip a unit around the back for a sneaky surprise. Lust is a quintessential MSU army, where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Leveraging that incredible speed to isolate and multicharge parts of the battlefield is where Lust will feel most at home. While playing against lust will feel like an exercise in self-discipline and stability. Guard your flanks and, ahem, protect your rears, and try not to get caught into playing the game as Lust wants you to. Or alternatively, give in to temptation and play them at their own game, take up a Versatile stance and you might find that a Legion of Lust isn't quite so Dominant, and in situations like that you never know who might end up on Top? ;)

    Strengths: Avoiding hits, Special Deployment, AP, Speed, Maneuverability, buffs/debuffs (they share)
    Weaknesses: Shooting, Taking hits (res & armor), Strength
  • Okay overview for my sanity (insanity?)... (Note these are my interpretations of the blurbs given.)

    Pride feels like it will be catering to that elite grind style. Every model/wound is precious as a drawback, but fighty. Kinda sounds like stretching the existing DL playstyle to be more elite/monster mashy.

    Gluttony feels like it will have some sort of mechanic centered around grinding in combat. It's said they'll regain wounds and be tough by way of wound pools. Sounds like it will reinvent some of the Daemonic mechanics into a playstyle which is more ogre/orc-y (or like the Vampire player who likes to ghoul star).

    Wrath feels like it will be about that aggressive charge play-style baby. So what I imagine KoE play like mixed with Dark Elf glass cannon feel (5+ aegis is the best kind of glass cannon). Like Pride, this feels like it is just stretching the DL playstyle in a direction. (note stretching and reinventing are not meant to be negative terms just the relationship between base army styles and the mono-sin).

    Greed blurb talks a lot about goal-oriented behavior and transaction. I don't understand how any of that will apply. But those strengths are cornering the market on every kind of defense. I can imagine how this army exists based on those and it doesn't sound the most fun. I look forward to what more creative minds have in store. Reinventing the Daemonic playstyle to be anvil-grind... like Dwarven brick infantry that one never actually sees?

    Envy feels like a special deployment and glass cannon extravaganza. I'm all for it. Bring me daemonic-beast ambush. Envy seems to be grabbing that hit 'em hard style of daemon and putting them in new unexpected places and the native cost of disrupting your own order of battle and decreased breadth of options.

    Lust's playstyle looks like that good ol' charge jockeying I've been enjoying playing with Daemons in general (and mostly failing at). Shifting all defense into mobility and offense. Seems to be only a small derivation of the base tome.

    Feel free to call me out about how I'm wrong/missing something/etc.
  • I think you're on the right track for most of it!

    Greed is about taking what's yours, and holding onto it. Imagine trying to design units that want to grind in combat, but have weaknesses in both offence and wounding. How would you do that? How would we do that? ?(

    We've had to get quite creative indeed! If you picture how Hoarders work on the battlefield, you've got a perfect example of How Greed will look. Greed has a particular hatred for those who can actually take things away from them. Those light cav are annoying, and that monster is throwing a tantrum, but that SCORING unit that's trying to invade YOUR objective? That's the unit that'd draw your ire.

    @Ghiznuk A versitile play style can give many advantages, switching positions on who's on the top posistion adds some spice to the game! That's why they call it a take all comers list.

    I should stop before I get banned :pursuit:
  • oreogolem wrote:

    Oh I forgot to mention. I find it funny almost all the these playstyles very much feel like "ya know their sin-specific unit, copy paste that."
    Well those units ARE the exemplar units of their sin. It's not like we could go 'Hey, Pride should be all about mass ranked units and beating people through rank resolution'.
    Life is hard when you're a skeleton
  • New

    I'm hoping for some interesting new units with base sizes that let me model some cool new stuff.

    Like I still got a bunch of those Screamers of Tzeetch I refuse to put on 40x40mm bases. Love to have them on Cav bases with rules for flying. ...Flying Hellhounds of Envy maybe?

    Or Flying manifestation for Sirens so I can put little blue dudes as riders on the Screamers.
  • New

    Sloth will be the final teaser and will be shown when release is imminent, so you'll know by that. Fittingly enough, we were in the the very last steps of the release but were slowed down by some issues with the Sloth portion of the book and had to make some changes which took a few extra days.

    The progress of this book has by all accounts been pretty damn slow, life has struck each of the designers with different things in every step of the process, from crisises at work, new family members, new jobs and moving around...But at long last the book, or at least the first version, is starting to look palatable and we're getting positive feedback from the playtest matches we've played. So here's hoping that all will go well from here on up to the release!
    Life is hard when you're a skeleton

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Palmu ().