Pinned IMMORTALS Beta 4

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    • IMMORTALS Beta 4

      I read a lot of post about this ICONIC unit.
      All of our beloved Overlords have an opinion about the state of this unit, and the Team is hearing you (as allways) so.

      Post here your suggestions "tag me" and i will update this 1st post for an easy read of all your suggestions / improvements.

      Let the discussion begin :)


      SlaveToThePyre wrote:

      My suggestion is to keep Bodyguard, Fear and Off/Def 5 and to change Whispers of the Mask into:


      "This unit ignores the effects of Lightning Reflexes, Poisoned Attacks, Lethal Strike and Toxic Attacks."

      WarX wrote:

      Battle Focus(5+) - without access to re-rolls to-hit this is strong. But just strong, can be priced.

      Immortals gain... Hatred if sandwitched (fighting in more then one facing). This will be quite fluffy - Immortals are so badass they fight even better when in worse situation

      Immortals gain +1 attack if engaged in more then one facing.

      berti wrote:

      Problem of immortals beeing not so "special" and appealing is based on the elite creep in core dwarfs. The difference is not big enough to have immortals in a role that core dwarfs could not also fill and be nearly as good as immortals in this role.


      Having a elite creep in core (and that is what plate armor armywide and added gear in core IS) and an upper limit on comparable special unit will propably make the special unit less attractive.
      Adding just more elite / power to the special unit will just result in some kind of power creep in total.

      berti wrote:

      The price gap from the two core units to immortals is too big. Perhaps core pricing is also not in the correct spot, making immortals looking even worse in the comparison than they truly are, with correct prices on all units.

      Elpeji wrote:

      Want to give a real anvil role to Immortal ?

      1- Delete Bodyguard for Annointed

      2- 5+ invu but no Battle Focus

      Kaneador wrote:

      Give them fear bodyguard os an def 5 and searing Heat. They Will be much more resilient without new rules.

      I think that with searing Heat and a good price you Will have an extremely good anvil that make characters more resilient. Will be boosted add to this that bodyguard Will be better becouse oye characters Will survive more rounds of combat.


      On The other Hand you should increase The base cost and decrease The additional models or increase The base number to 20 In order to avoid Msu inmortals spam to abuse of searing heat

      Kasocles wrote:

      I advocate for Fight in Extra Rank. Warriors have this when taking GW, citadel guard have it with their guns, why should Immortals not be able to fight en masse?

      Perhaps swap it with BF, so you can choose between more attacks or higher def (aegis).

      Theokrit wrote:

      I like the rules right now, but i feel that they are only really good if i put everything in supporting the unit (down to having both defensive spells for them). This warps listbuilding to a very high point, so maybe the 6+ aegis and +1 aegis instead of the flexibility is indeed the way to go.


      Less flexibility, less offensive power, less boost from spells, but more effective in defense while unsupported.

      regis wrote:

      Whispers of the mask give -1 to wound again str 5 and more ,or +1 armmor again str 5 and more

      ferny wrote:

      the original scarification type rule was good. It may be that it's not a good fit or is indeed OP, but we'll never know if it's not tested.

      Kriegschmidt wrote:

      Suggestion to represent the masks making the enemy feel they can't be killed:

      'When calculating the result of a close combat involving a unit of Immortals, the enemy's Combat Score bonus from HP losses inflicted on the Immortals unit that round is halved, rounding fractions up.'

      Ditch the Aegis, keep the Battle Focus, Keep Fear, and give them this.

      Reasons for suggestion:
      -I can find very little of their LAB Fluff in how they play
      -they currently feel bland and diluted
      -they're not currently especially good at anything
      -Aegis seems like a token attempt to tap into the whole mask thing but it's... token

      lawgnome wrote:

      Essentially, they are too expensive for what they do. If we have a decent point drop (or a more consistent increase in attack output for their price), I think they will be more favorably looked upon.

      Zyv wrote:

      In regards to the fluff I read, I hear that those "souls" that are bound to that mask would never run from a fight, so bodyguard makes sense. But also, I am not so sure about fear. I would rather argue to remove fear, but give the fearless, and deny them the option to flee.

      In addition, I still see them as having a defensive role, so that would maybe fit more to what I have in mind:
      Def6
      Remove battle focus
      Remove Aegis
      Give Searing Rage
      Change Whispers of the mask to: special attacks have their AP set to 0 if targeting models with whispers of the mask

      Limit the unit size to something like 15-20.
      And probably also something like 0-2 units per army (as written in the background, their aren't many of them...)

      darkknight109 wrote:

      1) Go back to the Beta 1 rule of Whispers (this unit cannot be wounded on better than a 4+). This still leaves them vulnerable to tarpitting, but it makes them a fantastic defensive brick against monsters and other high-impact units. Seriously, this rule was so fun and made the Immortals so unique and it just seemed to get discarded out of hand.



      2) Give the unit Weapon Master and allow Infernal Weapons to grant Parry when paired with shields, the way it was in the Slimbook. Currently IW are statistically the worst option available for Immortals, something a price change isn't likely to fix (spears provide the same defensive benefit, have better Agi and AP when receiving a charge, and will deal out more wounds to anything that doesn't have a resilience of exactly 6). Weapon Master very much fits in with the unit's fluff and if IW have parry, there are distinct reasons to use each of the three weapon sets.


      3) Keep the current Masks rule, but swap the Battle Focus and Aegis 6+ options for Fight in Extra Rank and Parry respectively.


      4) At the start of each round of combat, choose one: For the remainder of the turn, this unit must either re-roll all failed to-hit rolls or re-roll all failed armour saves. This would preserve the current offensive/defensive alternatives and give something a little more meaningful than Battle Focus (which adds an average of 1-2 hits per round of combat) and Aegis save (stops roughly the same from coming back the other way).

      Crazydwarf wrote:

      My suggestion.
      - The eliteness of the Immortals should be put to use, by having Weapon master. Choosing weapons for the best outcome is very much in line with all the different expertise gained, through the mask.
      - For each immortal that dies, roll a dice, on a 5+, they will come back (easy to remember rule, that represent the endless unit, the immortal is suppose to represent)
      - Remove Aegis
      - Remove Battle focus
      - Reduce the cost of weapons, or let them start with all avaliable weapons (Infernal weapons, GW, Paired weapons, Spears)


      Bonus:
      Some time ago, i read about some Grenades, that could maybe be used as a one-use only. (Avaliable only to heroes, engineers and immortals)
      So an Idea..

      Infernal Grenade:
      One-use only:
      Can be used either as; (Throw weapon, range 8) or in Close Combat
      S4 AP 1, Flaming, If one or more simultaneous attacks with Infernal Grenade hits, enemie unit suffers -1 to hit for one round.

      ubereater wrote:


      • Models 10-20
      • Keep Bodyguard & Fear
      • New Rule: Whispers of the Mask (no matter how many shots are fired they keep coming)
        • Gives the unit “Hard Target (1)”
      • Equipment: Great Weapons
        • Remove Shield, Spear and Infernal Weapon
      • Stats off -1 (4)
      • Increase def +2 (7)
        • I like this idea vs distracting. This can synergizewith our Hereditary Spell, Witchcraft, and Occultism.
      • All other stats remain the same

      The concept keeps the unit highly defensive against shooting and melee. The stats make them unique and fills a roll that I don’t think core can match.

      pazdzioch wrote:

      I like current design. Dont change them ! Pls

      TheChange wrote:

      Probably I am one of the few people that think Immortals are OK as they are now.
      To make them work you have to focus the list considering them instead of just saying I'll play the unit because I like it.

      Anyways IF there was a problem with the unit it would be to remove the special banner and give the ability back to the unit (similarly to the slim book days).

      Giladis wrote:

      I like the current iteration of the Immortals. They are not too elite thus keeping the price down while still being versatile enough for an elite Dwarf fighting unit. The presence of Bodyguard help anchor the battleline and the rules attached provide either a boost to their offensive output or ability to tank damage.

      Batcat wrote:

      So there is some options to deal with it :
      - nerf the entire book except Immortals (I hope this willl not happen ^^)
      - boost the damage output of the Immortals
      - boost the tanking ability of the unit
      - reduce the cost of the unit and additional models (I think it is a lazy and boring solution)
      - a combination of thoses options

      Maybe they should have Resilience 5, a 2+ armor save and/or an ageis, or be immune to a lot of special attacks, etc.

      rolan wrote:

      Whispers of the Mask: Universal Rule. (replace current rule)
      Enemy units fighting models with Whispers of the Mask take fear tests with an additional -1 modifier, rally around the flag cannot be used fir this test.

      the masks are enchanted to enhance the reputation immortals have...

      Tsagadai wrote:

      OS 4 but DS 6 or even 7. Fear, bodygard and a 6+ aegis for melee. A bound spell un the unit to restore wounds if they killed more than a certain amount in the previous turn. Say 4/8 bound restore 3 hp if they took at least 3 hp in the previous turn. I think making them an even harder anvil is the way to go.

      DS7 would make great weapons playable. At the moment great weapons are just a way of losing a lot of points. I think tinkering with to-hit is probably a better option than trying to improve an already good save and sacrificing some damage output for more defence is a better way to go.

      Weapons options wise, spears currently seem like the best option by a large margin followed by Great Weapons and then Infernal Weapons. That shouldn't be the case, the cheapest option shouldn't be the best.

      Dahou wrote:

      Hi there,

      I like Immortals and always play 1 unit of them in all my list.
      For me, the bodyguard rule is the best thing that could have and that I want when I choose them.

      I'm not a super fan of the whisper as actual. Specifically on the +1 aegis part.
      I think if we want a unit with aegis we could take Lugar or Incarnates or chariot.
      And I'm not a huge fan of spreading aegis on all units.

      Is it possible to reinforce the "double side coin" effet on this rule :
      "In each melee round, choose between 1) +1 Atq and Battle focus (or hatred, don't know which one could be the more relevant for BG) or 2) +2 Cdeff/+1Res/Distracting (something that could improve them to "tank" little more without a 6+ aegis)."


      Second option

      Keep in mind that Bodyguard, battle focus and fear apply for me as a perfect sense of a elite dwarf that doesn't want to let you go and that want you to die.
      Whisper rule could be deleted, keep battle focus and maybee give them free choice for one equipment.
      Spear are top powered as GW (F6 AP3) or IW (F5 Ap2 but 3+ save, it should be the same price for all (= free).

      Herminard wrote:

      My proposal;

      Name; Emissars of Ashuruk

      Base (15); 265

      Bulk (1-15); 21

      Special rules;

      Weapon Master, Fear, Infernal Brand, Scoring, Whispers of the Mask.

      May take 2 upgrades;

      Spears; 0
      GW; 0
      Infernal Weapon; 0
      Immortals - gain Bodyguard; 3

      The post was edited 16 times, last by Villon ().

    • I'm not a fan to the current design (depth-wise: seems a little unelegant to me).
      My suggestion is to keep Bodyguard, Fear and Off/Def 5 and to change Whispers of the Mask into:

      "This unit ignores the effects of Lightning Reflexes, Poisoned Attacks, Lethal Strike and Toxic Attacks."

      Very flavourful, matches with the background, not OP due to being situational, and highly matching the original guidelines which described this unit as being very effective against elite units, not much against big hordes of trash units.
    • Hello!

      My 5 cents: I think Immortals need some additional punch. If not they will end up like Deep Watch - iconic, elite unit that competes with rock solid core units. Unfortunately T9A gives premium to damage dealers, not being unkillable.

      Current design will meet following issues:
      1. Against trash units Immortals are exactly same efficient as IW and CG.
      2. Against elite units most probably much cheaper core will be more efficient based on ppm.
      Which will eventually end up same place as Deep Watch: elite which is cheaper ppm then fully kitted core unit ;)

      I think this should be solved by some crazy approaches ;)
      1. Battle Focus(5+) - without access to re-rolls to-hit this is strong. But just strong, can be priced.
      2. Immortals gain... Hatred if sandwitched (fighting in more then one facing). This will be quite fluffy - Immortals are so badass they fight even better when in worse situation ;)
      3. Immortals gain +1 attack if engaged in more then one facing.
      etc.
    • Immortals have slightly less defense than deep watch.
      Immortals also have either more attacks+AP with spears or they have infernal weapon, so more St/Ap. and in total more damage output than deep watch, but not a huge gap. Immortals have the ability to switchtheir battle fokus to an aegis.
      Battle fokus also adds some additional damage compared to Deep Watch.

      With Def 5 parry is not realy a big issue, but as deep watch should also have, immortals could also have def 6 without too much impact on their power level.
      Parry is a rule for low WS units, and scales bad when WS is higher. It also seems that parry is a super cheap stat on some units while these with high Def WS pay for it.

      I think the immortals already are a good unit in cross army comparisons.
      They have comparable defense to the "best" defensive dwarfen unit, slightly less, because only 6+aegis.
      Their damage output is higher than deep watch. If spears, infernal weapon or even Great weapon are the best gear depends on the oponent.

      But...Immortals have a lot different army they compete for a place, even when I only take other dwarf units into account, and ignore monsters, cavalry like things.

      The core infernal dwarfs they compete against have in total a lot higher elite level than the core hold dwarfen units. And in addition they all can take shooting weapons. (immortals can´t). (Please no discussion on greybeards, they bring a similar problem to DH)

      In my opinion adding plate armor to the warriors and pistols to the citadel guard was a wrong path. Increasing elite level of the core dwarfs of course has impact on the "more elite" special units.
      If I would take immortals with spears....I can just also take citadel guard with spears AND pistols. (and the new rule on doubling ranks for steadfast also adds to this)
      If I want a CC block I could also just go with warriors and add GW upgrade. Armor is the same, warriors have an additional rank to fight and are cheaper.



      Problem of immortals beeing not so "special" and appealing is based on the elite creep in core dwarfs. The difference is not big enough to have immortals in a role that core dwarfs could not also fill and be nearly as good as immortals in this role.

      Yes, I am sure some don´t like this opinion. But having a elite creep in core (and that is what plate armor armywide and added gear in core IS) and an upper limit on comparable special unit will propably make the special unit less attractive. Not surpricing at all.
      Adding just more elite / power to the special unit will just result in some kind of power creep in total.



      Note: I realy like deep watch and in a lot of my games they were MVP. They need some damage from charakters to be realy good, but I like them a lot as a unit.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by berti ().

    • assuming that damage output cant be increased due to design rules and that old designs like Alpha versión cant be resurrected i Will give them fear bodyguard os an def 5 and searing Heat. Same as kadim titán. They Will be much more resilient without new rules so no increasing in complexity and Will make alchemy wizards more interesting.

      I think that with searing Heat and a good price you Will have an extremely good anvil that make characters more resilient becouse infernal armour Will be boosted add to this that bodyguard Will be better becouse oye characters Will survive more riunds of combat. On The other Hand you should increase The base cost and decrease The additional models or increase The base number to 20 In order to avoid Msu inmortals spam to abuse of searing heat

      Cheers
    • I advocate for Fight in Extra Rank. Warriors have this when taking GW, citadel guard have it with their guns, why should Immortals not be able to fight en masse?

      Perhaps swap it with BF, so you can choose between more attacks or higher def (aegis). Recently I've been playing some games where Battle focus was hardly a thing and it felt refreshing.
    • Elpeji wrote:

      Want to give a real anvil role to Immortal ?

      1- Delete Bodyguard for Annointed

      2- 5+ invu but no Battle Focus
      i dont know what invu is. i would guess its either fortitude or aegis.
      Please dont give them fortitude. that would be a strict nonbo with hand of glory.
      If you give them aegis, please make it 6+ and +1 aegis (to gain a little combo with infernal armour and still combo with hand of glory but without going up farther than 4++)


      All in all, i like the rules right now, but i feel that they are only really good if i put everything in supporting the unit (down to having both defensive spells for them). This warps listbuilding to a very high point, so maybe the 6+ aegis and +1 aegis instead of the flexibility is indeed the way to go.
      Less flexibility, less offensive power, less boost from spells, but more effective in defense while unsupported.
    • @Villon Suggestion to represent the masks making the enemy feel they can't be killed:

      'When calculating the result of a close combat involving a unit of Immortals, the enemy's Combat Score bonus from HP losses inflicted on the Immortals unit that round is halved, rounding fractions up.'

      Ditch the Aegis, keep the Battle Focus, Keep Fear, and give them this.

      Reasons for suggestion:
      -I can find very little of their LAB Fluff in how they play
      -they currently feel bland and diluted
      -they're not currently especially good at anything
      -Aegis seems like a token attempt to tap into the whole mask thing but it's... token

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Kriegschmidt ().

    • Can I be a pain and ask that people also attempt to make a precise statement about their problems with the unit please?

      E.g. "I want more eliteness" or "I want rule X" isn't as easily useful to us.

      But e.g. (just being illustrative, none of these might apply to immortals):
      "not elite enough to match background"
      "not elite enough to fulfill role X which is what I want to use the unit for"
      "i don't get feel X off the unit, and feel X is what I get from the background"
      "my lists with immortals in do worse than my lists without them"
      are all examples of more precise statements that give us more of a clue to the right solution(s) to investigate.
      List repository and links HERE
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      Empire of Dannstahl HERE
    • I don't have any play experience with the new immortals.

      Judging them based on their similarities to past versions of immortals (which I do have play experience with), I see the design as good, but they don't have the punch to win fights. More often, they just lose slowly.

      This comes as a result of their high price for a single attack. CG are almost as defensive as immortals (not quite, but almost), are cheaper per model, and come out of core. Immortals cost a lot, but don't have the weight of numbers behind them. You spend a lot of your points for only 12 attacks or so.

      Essentially, they are too expensive for what they do. If we have a decent point drop (or a more consistent increase in attack output for their price), I think they will be more favorably looked upon.
    • ferny wrote:

      the original scarification type rule was good, and it's removal felt very much like a kneejerk response to unstructured and untested feedback. It may be that it's not a good fit or is indeed OP, but we'll never know if it's not tested.

      On a related note - could that rule become available for deep watch?

      The DH LAB is a way off. I would guess it is a possibility for them, assuming Shield wall was being removed.

      Background Team

    • In regards to the fluff I read, I hear that those "souls" that are bound to that mask would never run from a fight, so bodyguard makes sense. But also, I am not so sure about fear. I would rather argue to remove fear, but give the fearless, and deny them the option to flee.

      In addition, I still see them as having a defensive role, so that would maybe fit more to what I have in mind:
      Def6
      Remove battle focus
      Remove Aegis
      Give Searing Rage
      Change Whispers of the mask to: special attacks have their AP set to 0 if targeting models with whispers of the mask

      Limit the unit size to something like 15-20.
      And probably also something like 0-2 units per army (as written in the background, their aren't many of them...)
    • DanT wrote:

      Can I be a pain and ask that people also attempt to make a precise statement about their problems with the unit please?

      E.g. "I want more eliteness" or "I want rule X" isn't as easily useful to us.

      But e.g. (just being illustrative, none of these might apply to immortals):
      "not elite enough to match background"
      "not elite enough to fulfill role X which is what I want to use the unit for"
      "i don't get feel X off the unit, and feel X is what I get from the background"
      "my lists with immortals in do worse than my lists without them"
      are all examples of more precise statements that give us more of a clue to the right solution(s) to investigate.
      To me they don't have flavour enough to play them instead of an equal unit of Citadels, whose Flintlocks or spear+pistol combo is way more evocative and fluffy.
      To me, it is a question of fluff and flavour. I don't really care about their strenght since it is mainly something for really good players. At the moment, the current rule doesn't really make me say "oh yeah let's go fishing". They simply don't sound like "Immortals" to me.
      Immunity to poison, lethals, toxic and lightning reflexes would make me think of something unique, the true secret weapons of the lords of the east, something common mortals can never see on a battlefield in a lifetime. Something more than an undead, a demon, a mortal.
      Fear is a good rule for them. They kind of have the same fashion the old Phoenix Guards had, which was due to their dead-silent attitudes and tactics.

      I agree that removing FiER and SiER from Ziggurat Warriors and Flintlock Citadels, while also making spear/pistol combo more expensive, may make Immortals more interesting.