VS LAB Mechanics Phase Update 14

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  • I mean, I'd love for it to be less random, but it would need some other mechanic then. Like the previously discussed risk-reward, betting, resource pools, escalation, opponent's decision, anything like that.

    For some reason, after tens of pages of forum discussion on it, the design team still only seems to consider the two mechanical cases of "straightforward" and "totally random".
  • Eldan wrote:

    I mean, I'd love for it to be less random, but it would need some other mechanic then. Like the previously discussed risk-reward, betting, resource pools, escalation, opponent's decision, anything like that.

    For some reason, after tens of pages of forum discussion on it, the design team still only seems to consider the two mechanical cases of "straightforward" and "totally random".
    The overcharge tried to encapsulate risk reward... except if you can overcharge you should always do it because it cranks up your damage output substantially, and those 1's cause wounds anyway.

    So it's not so much risk reward, as randomness in how many guys die because there is no good reason not to overcharge.
    “You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.” -Lan Mandragoran, EotW


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  • Masamune88 wrote:

    Optimistic C wrote:

    dan wrote:

    Adv 9 chariots can only zone 21 inches, and probably don’t hurt you when you kill them.
    Hmm. The Threshing Engine is Adv 10 (and you can buy 5 of them), and I don’t know that it’s breaking the game in half.I’ve been a bit skeptical of some of the discussions and choices being made in the various LABs, but this doesn’t seem too dangerous or unprecedented. Yes, it’s more random and wacky, but I’d personally prefer the reliability of Adv 9-10 from a competitive mindset.
    after being on the end of both of these units, can confirm, they are significantly more threatening than they appear on paper.
    Points aside. That extra D6 on the D6 on the karts can effectively position them as fire and forget 25" threat range bombs that you literally do no care about, and even if you fail the charge, they dont really mess up your line that much if they get shot a bit (as for some reason they are actually pretty resilient to light shooting, despite that being a pretty standard counter to this kind of unit) as the amount of models you have means that you can absorb even massive casualties without breaking a sweat.

    The doom sparks are one to watch as with even halfway decent rolling, you can wipe out a flank of units by moving maximum, 5 dicing ravens wing and just letting it do its work.

    If you as a VS player get first turn and have a hill on your side, you are going to cause massive damage without response and likely win you the game on T1 with current implementations.

    There are a lot of interactions you guys havent seen yet that make me shake my head when they all come together.

    Honestly? If I was to come up against a VS Lab opponent in current iteration? I'd shake hands and walk away with a 0 against my name. It's just not worth putting the models down at the moment.

    Pre alpha or not, the book is super powerful
    This worries me a lot. I really hope our army doesn't become a auto win army. It needs to be fun for both sites. I do like the design but maybe tone it down a bit. Also i am not happy to see another 2 entry's where you need to buy, print, paint more and more (big) models. How about making this units 0-2 models?
  • skipschnit wrote:

    Eisenhans wrote:

    arwaker wrote:

    setrius wrote:

    As more I think about the rule of Lightning Attacks less I like it. This is a completely random rule where you and your opponent can't planify a strategy and all depends of the luck. To be honnest I dont like win or lost games thanks to random rules like this.

    That is all
    Hm, I like this level of randomness a lot.
    And I absolutely adore it!Dicemolesting someone who relies only on statistics at a tournament is one of life's greatest pleasures.That the dice molest me right back to the bottom tables is also fine.
    LMAO. See, and this is where a designer just goes...
    :drunk: :gameover:
    Well one can’t please everyone right? I simply love it, well done, good job!
  • New

    Eldan wrote:

    Eh, 3 tunnel runners cost less than most 20 rat infantry units.
    Eh, most of us already have a lot of 20 rat units, or buy even more of these and now also the big stuff. It feels sometimes like calling in the dessert when you give feedback and right away the guy who seems to have nothing better to, than write on this forum comes with these follow up comments.
  • New

    arwaker wrote:

    eBay is full of Blood Island boxes for pretty cheap gold.
    Tbh, those skaven models are really good, considering them being a starter box.
    You’re right that they’re beautiful, but they’re surprisingly expensive these days! For the life of me I can’t find basic clanrat hand weapons on eBay.
  • New

    dan wrote:

    arwaker wrote:

    eBay is full of Blood Island boxes for pretty cheap gold.
    Tbh, those skaven models are really good, considering them being a starter box.
    You’re right that they’re beautiful, but they’re surprisingly expensive these days! For the life of me I can’t find basic clanrat hand weapons on eBay.
    What version are you looking for? I can bring what I have to the Pan Picnic for you.
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

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    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

  • New

    Thanks so much for the offer, I actually won’t be there this year (boooo!). I’m hunting for the 7th Ed (newer plastic) ones, but can only find lots of like 10 on eBay for $8, which is patently absurd. Just trying to create some variety among my spear bricks.

    Incidentally, with the new book spoilers, I’m now also on the hunt for Ork weapon upgrades to start converting up additional weapon teams.
  • New

    skipschnit wrote:

    By the way, I read somewhere that there was a question as to when the d6 was rolled for the Dreadmill chariots.

    When charging, declare as normal and roll as normal, then add the d6”. It is a good point that someone brought up about the failed charge and I’ll take it back to the team and RCT to discuss if the d6” is to be added or not. I will also ask about clarifying the “legal charge” part as well, so we will know if we are taking the max possible range, or only the maximum BASE range since the d6 is a “bonus” for firing the engines.

    For marching, it is easier as it is just march range +d6”.
    It will be good to get some clarification on the intent. As written, it seems to be perhaps more powerful than intended.

    In my attempted conversation with Nicreap, if nothing else was proven, there is clearly ambiguity here. I also spoke with a couple of the more prolific playtesters and there is both variation between how it is being tested. In general though, 4D6 drop the lowest seems be being played broadly. If that's not intended, should be reworded or reworked.

    Posted with permission from one of the more prolific testers:

    I’ve been testing that you roll [select] which option you’ll use at the start of the turn. If you use the charge option, add the result to the advance rate of the kart (which determined max charge rate). Then it’s whatever the result is. Sounds like it’s supposed to be 4d6 pick the 3 highest.

    This version as written gives something like a 23% chance of making charges that most chariots would only have something like a 7% chance of making. That if nothing else seems out of balance.

    Kind regards,

    Axiem
  • New

    Axiem wrote:

    skipschnit wrote:

    By the way, I read somewhere that there was a question as to when the d6 was rolled for the Dreadmill chariots.

    When charging, declare as normal and roll as normal, then add the d6”. It is a good point that someone brought up about the failed charge and I’ll take it back to the team and RCT to discuss if the d6” is to be added or not. I will also ask about clarifying the “legal charge” part as well, so we will know if we are taking the max possible range, or only the maximum BASE range since the d6 is a “bonus” for firing the engines.

    For marching, it is easier as it is just march range +d6”.
    It will be good to get some clarification on the intent. As written, it seems to be perhaps more powerful than intended.
    In my attempted conversation with Nicreap, if nothing else was proven, there is clearly ambiguity here. I also spoke with a couple of the more prolific playtesters and there is both variation between how it is being tested. In general though, 4D6 drop the lowest seems be being played broadly. If that's not intended, should be reworded or reworked.

    Posted with permission from one of the more prolific testers:

    I’ve been testing that you roll [select] which option you’ll use at the start of the turn. If you use the charge option, add the result to the advance rate of the kart (which determined max charge rate). Then it’s whatever the result is. Sounds like it’s supposed to be 4d6 pick the 3 highest.
    This version as written gives something like a 23% chance of making charges that most chariots would only have something like a 7% chance of making. That if nothing else seems out of balance.

    Kind regards,

    Axiem
    That is a simplistic way of looking at it, but it would be wrong. This isn’t like Truth in Time where there are multiple Maximized Rolls. Heck yes, that boosts the probability of success greatly. It also lowers the chance that the Adv number ends up being small. There is supposed to be 2 rolls. Calculate swiftstride as normal, then add the Adv, and then the bonus d6”. I checked with RCT and even if we changed the wording to Devastating Charge (+d6”), it has the same effect as it’s written now. It is also to use the maximum possible distance for declaring charges, which is 23”. This effect is the same effect as Beast Herds and their Black Wing Totem, so I’m not sure why we had the disconnect with the team. So we’ll work on that.
    Yes, the convo between you and @Nicreap was good for us, and it was a respectable gentleman debate, so thank you guys. So, it is something that we will look at again to make sure the wording is clear. :thumbsup:
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

  • New

    Maybe just to solve several "issues" in one change: Remove Swiftstride.

    Swiftstride increases chances of successful long charges. This seems to be a major problem for many people here.
    Losing swiftstride does not decrease the maximum charge range. You can still try to dice your luck. That is very Vermin Iike.
    Losing Swiftstride makes the extra d6 not causing confusion anymore on how and when to apply it.
    Losing swiftstride would make VS step less on the toes of factions that should be fast.
  • New

    arwaker wrote:

    Maybe just to solve several "issues" in one change: Remove Swiftstride.

    Swiftstride increases chances of successful long charges. This seems to be a major problem for many people here.
    Losing swiftstride does not decrease the maximum charge range. You can still try to dice your luck. That is very Vermin Iike.
    Losing Swiftstride makes the extra d6 not causing confusion anymore on how and when to apply it.
    Losing swiftstride would make VS step less on the toes of factions that should be fast.
    At first glance, this seems like a good possible solution. Hope others look at this. Will try to give thoughts to alternatives as well, and will run the probabilities. I agree very random (high risk, high reward, less stable for high-end successes) makes sense thematically.

    Kind regards,

    Axiem
  • New

    Axiem wrote:

    skipschnit wrote:

    By the way, I read somewhere that there was a question as to when the d6 was rolled for the Dreadmill chariots.

    When charging, declare as normal and roll as normal, then add the d6”. It is a good point that someone brought up about the failed charge and I’ll take it back to the team and RCT to discuss if the d6” is to be added or not. I will also ask about clarifying the “legal charge” part as well, so we will know if we are taking the max possible range, or only the maximum BASE range since the d6 is a “bonus” for firing the engines.

    For marching, it is easier as it is just march range +d6”.
    It will be good to get some clarification on the intent. As written, it seems to be perhaps more powerful than intended.
    In my attempted conversation with Nicreap, if nothing else was proven, there is clearly ambiguity here. I also spoke with a couple of the more prolific playtesters and there is both variation between how it is being tested. In general though, 4D6 drop the lowest seems be being played broadly. If that's not intended, should be reworded or reworked.

    Posted with permission from one of the more prolific testers:

    I’ve been testing that you roll [select] which option you’ll use at the start of the turn. If you use the charge option, add the result to the advance rate of the kart (which determined max charge rate). Then it’s whatever the result is. Sounds like it’s supposed to be 4d6 pick the 3 highest.
    This version as written gives something like a 23% chance of making charges that most chariots would only have something like a 7% chance of making. That if nothing else seems out of balance.

    Kind regards,

    Axiem

    I would say this is a rouge play tester not reading the rules. This was never how I played it or seen it played in PT.

    It’s clearly not a maximised roll.

    They still should not be added to the book though, especially at current power level.
    Free command groups for standard infantry
  • New

    Yeah, that long range could be reduced by removing the extra D6 and instead giving a second Swifstride.

    But that would be losing flavour and randomness.

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