This game needs to become more like Age of Sigmar

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  • Remy77077 wrote:

    I realised you're all discussing this with regards to FB rules & army books...

    But just in case anyone isn't aware, "baking everything we can into the profile" and "single page for you (& opponent) that you can print out which gives all the stats and rules for all your units" is exactly what Essence of War is already doing :)
    Yeah using that as base I made these quick ones, I could make a printsafe version but its just gonna be black and white walls of text.

    EOW cards work because the rules have been condensed, I designed these with front and back printings in mind but jesus the text is gonna be super small to fit all of the info on one card, warmachine does the same but I'm not sure if my font sizes are proper for a mtg sized card. Either I design them bigger or theres gonna be more cards.

    I think at this point it would be better to have separate reference cards for special rules.
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  • Yeah, but EoW currently has only five factions with four unit entries each. It's massively simplified. (Plus, assuming that a Vermin List becomes available for VS, judging by the Quickstarter, it won't have a single unit in it that I like.)

    I don't want a simpler game. (Or at least, not primarily). I want a complex game with good presentation and considerably less arcane structure.
  • PhearTheHam wrote:

    Remy77077 wrote:

    I realised you're all discussing this with regards to FB rules & army books...

    But just in case anyone isn't aware, "baking everything we can into the profile" and "single page for you (& opponent) that you can print out which gives all the stats and rules for all your units" is exactly what Essence of War is already doing :)
    Yeah using that as base I made these quick ones, I could make a printsafe version but its just gonna be black and white walls of text.
    EOW cards work because the rules have been condensed, I designed these with front and back printings in mind but jesus the text is gonna be super small to fit all of the info on one card, warmachine does the same but I'm not sure if my font sizes are proper for a mtg sized card. Either I design them bigger or theres gonna be more cards.

    I think at this point it would be better to have separate reference cards for special rules.
    Wait, what are these unit cards based on? They have point values? As far as I know EOW doesn't give point values anywhere?
  • Eldan wrote:

    PhearTheHam wrote:

    Remy77077 wrote:

    I realised you're all discussing this with regards to FB rules & army books...

    But just in case anyone isn't aware, "baking everything we can into the profile" and "single page for you (& opponent) that you can print out which gives all the stats and rules for all your units" is exactly what Essence of War is already doing :)
    Yeah using that as base I made these quick ones, I could make a printsafe version but its just gonna be black and white walls of text.EOW cards work because the rules have been condensed, I designed these with front and back printings in mind but jesus the text is gonna be super small to fit all of the info on one card, warmachine does the same but I'm not sure if my font sizes are proper for a mtg sized card. Either I design them bigger or theres gonna be more cards.

    I think at this point it would be better to have separate reference cards for special rules.
    Wait, what are these unit cards based on? They have point values? As far as I know EOW doesn't give point values anywhere?
    these quick drafts arent for EOW, I made quick sample reference cards of the Skeletons for the FB version as people thought it would be a good game aid to have all the rules in one place based on our experience from EOW

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    The post was edited 1 time, last by PhearTheHam ().

  • AndyL wrote:

    I must confess that I haven't looked in to EoW in detail. Now that I have those unit cards are great! I must say that same kind of treatment to all army books would be great as well. Good to know that the project has templates already set :)

    The cards i made ARE NOT FOR EOW, they were INSPIRED BY the EOW Cards. just so people dont get confused. The Cards I drafted are for the Full Fantasy battles version.

    @Eldan since i dont know how to multiquote
    not yet, picked the first unit with art that i had easy access to. Thats one of the hindrances on my end. I think this would be much better with art, I could do print safe with just BNW and no art would probably have more room for text on the Front side of the card.

    I honestly think that it would be better to have separate rules reference cards for each special rule an armylist/army would have.

    I'm even thinking about making separate cards for equipment like spears, heavy/light armor, shields, paired weapons as each of those also have their own rules.

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  • Eldan wrote:

    At that point, why not just a rules cheat sheet? What's the advantage of cards over 1-2 pages summarizing all necessary rules?
    Thats honestly a much better idea.

    The thing is people were requesting something to accompany the armybook, so if its a package deal i think it would come out much like warmachine's system wherin the faction has a deck of reference cards for all the available units you'll ever use.

    In this case i think itll likely be something like that.

    Though as you suggested people could always customize a cheat sheet for their own personal army list really. I think that would be a much better way to go about it.

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  • @Bloody MIsfire oh my gosh, yes! I agree with everything that you said, and I am also a dad with three very young sons, work a full time and part-time job, and my wife works weekends so I rarely get a chance to play with my local group. On the rare occasions that I do get to play, I find the rules to be pretty confusing, I hope that my opponent knows the rules so we don't have to look stuff up constantly, and end up getting beat pretty badly most games because my opponents are able to play much more frequently and do know the rules better. I love the game, the players, and I love my army, but I too wish that the rules were simpler.
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  • Remy77077 wrote:

    I realised you're all discussing this with regards to FB rules & army books...

    But just in case anyone isn't aware, "baking everything we can into the profile" and "single page for you (& opponent) that you can print out which gives all the stats and rules for all your units" is exactly what Essence of War is already doing :)
    It’s fantastic, I have fertile ground for 9th Age locally and fully intend to utilise EoW to introduce the game to newcomers when I can get back into physical gaming.
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  • Bloody MIsfire wrote:


    This game seems as if it has been designed by super competitive tournament players
    I'm not reading through this thread, but the game WAS originally designed by super competitive tournament players :) I have some of them close by, including in my gaming club.

    It really shows as well. This is why some people that loved WHFB don't like T9A, the funny and fluffy rules are mostly gone as well as the original lore (due to ip of course). They want to play WHFB in the old world with animosity and the schools of magic and the four chaos gods and so on, not T9A in a new world. They also usually argue that T9A is well made, but all the balancing also makes it boring. More like chess (which is of course a bit of an exaggeration). In WHFB, you had more skewed lists that did one thing well and others bad. This is unbalanced and more rps, but also fun and flavorful. Also, the lists in T9A are more similar to each other. It's easier to predict what you're going to face.

    I think they are correct in their criticism actually (to a degree) but that this is also the strengths of the system. It's balanced and player skill is more important. This obviously fits tournament players better. Since I like the competitive side, it also fits me although I can appreciate the other types of games. But one has to realize that these strengths is probably a good fit for a minority of players. I'm not saying that balance is bad, but good balance doesn't outweigh the other stuff if you're not part of the minority that appreciates a game like T9A.

    The solution is to play AoS if you like other aspects of wargaming. I do, alongside T9A. T9A has a chosen path, and changing that to something closer to AoS would be meaningless.

    Sorry that your friends don't want to play T9A anymore. If you're in Sweden sometime, I'll play a game with you :)
  • Would it be possible, and if so how hard would it be, to have Lexicon pop-ups when mousing over the text for a rule also happen in the armybooks. I get that this would increase their size a bit, or that it would only work with an internet connection, but I think it would both make use of the hard work the lexicon team puts in, as well as make the rules more readable for new players that may not be familiar with what Battle Focus or Hatred means.
  • Blingley wrote:

    Would it be possible, and if so how hard would it be, to have Lexicon pop-ups when mousing over the text for a rule also happen in the armybooks. I get that this would increase their size a bit, or that it would only work with an internet connection, but I think it would both make use of the hard work the lexicon team puts in, as well as make the rules more readable for new players that may not be familiar with what Battle Focus or Hatred means.
    This is definitely possible to do, but needs someone to put in the extra hard work to do it I am afraid, I am not sure there's anyone with the time to actively make those updates at the moment, but if anyone wants to volunteer I am sure it will be highly welcomed!

    Like the miniatures libraries, I think anyone on the forum can update the lexicon pages:
    the-ninth-age.com/community/lexicon/
    .. but you can't approve public updates without being given full access by joining the right T9A staff team (this is why I joined Product Search to make my life easier to update the OnG libraries! :D)

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  • Remy77077 wrote:

    Blingley wrote:

    Would it be possible, and if so how hard would it be, to have Lexicon pop-ups when mousing over the text for a rule also happen in the armybooks. I get that this would increase their size a bit, or that it would only work with an internet connection, but I think it would both make use of the hard work the lexicon team puts in, as well as make the rules more readable for new players that may not be familiar with what Battle Focus or Hatred means.
    This is definitely possible to do, but needs someone to put in the extra hard work to do it I am afraid, I am not sure there's anyone with the time to actively make those updates at the moment, but if anyone wants to volunteer I am sure it will be highly welcomed!
    Like the miniatures libraries, I think anyone on the forum can update the lexicon pages:
    the-ninth-age.com/community/lexicon/
    .. but you can't approve public updates without being given full access by joining the right T9A staff team (this is why I joined Product Search to make my life easier to update the OnG libraries! :D)
    With LaTeX books this should be actually super-simple (if used PDF stylesheet supports tooltips). Just run some find&replace against sources to mark keywords ;)
  • Argh sorry, cheers WarX I totally misunderstood that and thought it was about the forum, not within PDFs!

    But yeah, much of my answer still applies... it's most likely needs more people to DO the work more than anything.

    In terms of what I can do within EoW team, will look into this :D

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  • WarX wrote:

    Remy77077 wrote:

    Blingley wrote:

    Would it be possible, and if so how hard would it be, to have Lexicon pop-ups when mousing over the text for a rule also happen in the armybooks. I get that this would increase their size a bit, or that it would only work with an internet connection, but I think it would both make use of the hard work the lexicon team puts in, as well as make the rules more readable for new players that may not be familiar with what Battle Focus or Hatred means.
    This is definitely possible to do, but needs someone to put in the extra hard work to do it I am afraid, I am not sure there's anyone with the time to actively make those updates at the moment, but if anyone wants to volunteer I am sure it will be highly welcomed!
    With LaTeX books this should be actually super-simple (if used PDF stylesheet supports tooltips). Just run some find&replace against sources to mark keywords ;)


    tnx guys for the suggestion / answer / offer

    @Arturiki (and possibly @Eru and @Trakritch and @calcathin too), do you think this is something we could / should pilot for the Essence rulebook?


  • It should indeed be possible, and we could use EoW to experiment. The difficulty of implementation increases if we have things like auto-alphabetical sorting already in place, then I would need to investigate.

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  • Bloody MIsfire wrote:

    Problem in a nutshell:

    This game seems as if it has been designed by super competitive tournament players, who wanted a complicated & balanced game. This game is not as accessible & fun to new players as it could be, or even old timers like myself with family obligations. There are simply too many rules. Too many things to remember (or forget). Individually, all these rules are probably cool and makes sense. Taken together, there are simply too many of them.

    Could some of these things be combined?:
    - Two different weapon skills
    - Two different special saves
    - Lots of similar words: large, tall, gigantic, towering presence and massive bulk
    - Hatred, Frenzy and battle focus
    - Front rank does not give a rank bonus, but it does give a rank (super confusing for new players)
    - Warmachine & construct
    - Poison attacks, toxic attacks, lethal strike, divine attacks, flaming attacks, magical attacks
    I couldn't agree more. Some elements of 9th Age are just over engineered. There is hardly any benefit from this additional level of complexity. It creates unnecessary obstacles for new players and keeps the target audience limited to people who can spend a lot of time for their hobby.