VS LAB Alpha Discussions

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  • Little Joe wrote:

    AlexCat wrote:

    Little Joe wrote:

    Most good core units that can win against Vermin Legionaries do not care about AP or not.
    Last time I checked the new book, 60 vermin legionaries with spears, shield, FCG and Rending cost 445 pts.So far, I havent found ANY core unit for 445 pts that could beat them in a straight fight. If you can, please give me an example.
    Just for me. :D 60 vermin legionaries shield and spear full command = 175 + (60-25)*5 +45 = 395, Rending Banner for 50 points for 445 total.
    I will pick something comparable in costs: 54 Common Goblins with shields, bows, musician, banner and 3 shady gits = 443 points. I go 5 wide once you get in charge range. In a void, you don't stand a chance if I can get your unit below 51 before we lock into combat.

    These blocks are supposed to keep your army together and costed such as to allow you to go big. The extra HP help offset negative effects and units killed to remain effective even after taking some damage. Sure in 1:1 comparisons they look good on paper. Most armies outrange them and thus the VS will most likely be the attacking force.
    A flank charge or 33% damage due to missile fire and this unit is no longer as good. So where you only calculate max and fresh we must take the game into account as well. They are supposed to be scary and overwhelm you in numbers, if they can. That is the swarm feel we want to create.
    And yes, this is new, but there exist sufficient tools to handle this army. It forces choices to play against and with this army and we hope it's fun and challenging for both players. It might take unpopular units right now, but it's not impossible.

    EDIT: in the example above for DH 18 clan warriors full command (256) and 10 clan marksmen (190), I force you to charge and flank you. As you can see it's all about tactics and negating your advantages.Some chance and such involved in how it goes, but is that not the game we play?
    33% damage due to missile fire ... The only army that can reliably achieve that right now, is ... VS?

    Let's talk about your goblins, right? So the Vermin Legionnaires force the goblins to deploy 5 wide (your words). If we get to choose the scenario, then let's to for the ideal one:
    VS march to just within 24", goblins shoot on 5+ to hit, 3+ to wound against a 3+ armour save. Score 2/27 wound per model, so that's barely a single wound. Next turn, the VS march up to 14", goblins shoot again, another 20/27th wound. Then, VS fail their charge 3 times in a row, getting them three rounds in short range. By then the goblins will have managed to do 10/9 wounds per round, so that's a total of 5 wounds! Stunning!

    Then the VS charge in and obliterate the goblins. Their bows had 24" range, right?

    I thought plague disciples were removed from VS yet apparently you made them carry a halberd, a 3+ Asv and put them in core.
    Have you checked out my Youtube channel yet? Link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8s5AkuzccDY_M0zBVIDd7w
  • AlexCat wrote:

    Btw, although from special, found almost perfect counter to rat cohort: 6 chosen of sloth with rending banner. They trade wounds 13 to 1, winning each round, so will finish rats in 5 phases, having lost less than 2 models. Small frontage
    @AlexCat why should I use other units with exactly the same point cost? The legionairs are in a perfect fighting size, the size of other armies units is awkward this way. But smaller and cheaper units can do considerable damage to the rats, preparing them for other chargers, and bigger units can annihilate this One and remain in fighting size to face even a second unit.
    So what should this vaccuum example show?
    Like 50 wildhorns, paired weapons rending banner loose around 22 models until the rats are gone, 28 wildhorns can still fight.
    25 succubi smothering coils loose around 14 models until rats are gone, even that unit remains a threat.
    Additionally this fight will never end without additional charges or magic involved, and the only thing that is sure is that the First round will not end the fight and the rats need to take a Test.
    I think There are more important things to this army to Talk about.
  • arwaker wrote:

    Is it plausible that Senator and Bloodfur Commander have similar item budgets? Senator is a rich politician and the Bloodfur is "only" a soldier. Would 150 not be sufficient? Sure, that would require the Doomblade to become cheaper (and of course weaker) but that is probably anyway a thing.

    On the other hand I think that the items for the Senator could be increased a bit in power to allow him to utilize his 200 budget. Currently I can hardly see how he ever would get his bag full.
    I think you are right. Standard build for senators will be two of crown of autocracy, the toga or toga and the Battered Laurel.

    In general I notice a lot of divine attacks lately (Bulls at ID, Assasins of VS) also the Doomblade got strongly improved (+1 attack, less damage to the bearer) but the Bloodfur commander is an investment of 325 pts with blade and agility potion which will most likely kill most characters however if he gets in.

    Yet if you want to equip him otherwise its 70 pts for destinies call, 50 pts for a good weapon entchantment plus some items.

    Also about bloodfur commander I think the special rule decimation is unnecessary complex.
    The Bad Beards (ID)
    Clan Skuf (DH)
    Zee Brood (SA)
    The Crown of Fangs [the strings behind the fools] (VC)
  • If you have enough shooting to aim at the 50 model units in VS army AND can keep the "toys" at bay that will shred your army if they are not handled accordingly, you will not have a problem, sure.

    Vaccuum comparisons of two units don´t make sense. Chances are not so small that in the big blocks there will be some kind of damage dealers, magic. And oposing side will also have some charakters, magic.....

    Big thing is that life is cheap halves CR from kills. So comparable killpower on both sides results in a win for vermins. Their point/wound ratio is already super low, and with halved CR on top it will be super hard for a lot of armies to fight them. Nearly all 1 attack units are propably doomed and have no chance in winning against the vermin blocks. (the normal ones, not the pseudo elites).
  • AlexCat wrote:

    fadenye wrote:

    Saurus Warriors with spears will win combat every round and they will wipe each other out about the same pace.
    You can get 22 saurus warriors with spears for 450 pts. Lets put them 7 wide. Rats go 7 wide too as usual.If they charge rats, rats do 43 attacks with ap3 first round and kill 7 saurus. Remaining 15 saurus do 12.7 wounds.
    Combat resolution is 7+ 3 ranks + banner = 11 for the rats. 12.7/2 + 1 rank + banner + charge = 10 for saurus. Following rounds saurus start losing models and ranks and it goes downhill for them.
    If rats charged, saurus would have had 6+ AS and would lose 5.8 but rats would have the charge bonus, so it wouldnt change much.
    Rats won again.
    How do you get 43 attacks on Vermin?
    7 Wide you say and they fight in 5 ranks. 35 attacks +1 champion.

    60x Vermin fcmd
    36A * 1/2 * 1/3 * 5/6 = 5 models killed
    Combat res 5 + 1(std) + 3(ranks) = 9

    22x(17x left) Saurus spears fcmd 6 Wide
    24A * (2/3 + 1/6 * 2/3) * 5/6 = 15.55 models killed
    Combat res 8 + 1(std) + 2(ranks) = 11

    Rats lost by 2.
    Even with charge bonus or +1AP first round for Vermin they still loose by 1.

    In reality Saurus buys a few more models and won't loose attacks to the first few wounds and it will make it an easy win while Legionaires are already maxed.
  • Cam wrote:

    Martins9thAge wrote:

    And why don't we say that with RES 2 and 5+, they will fall much easier than other cores of the same value in points with ranged atacks? xD
    3+ AS though. So value wise legionnaires wont drop easier.
    How do get legonaries get on 3+? Blackfur veterans can have a 3+ vs. shooting.

    Actually I like that rule but am torn, that those can switch within the game since 3+ feels a bit to high amour save for those guys. Considering that they are core, bodyguard for senate general (which will this be anyway).
    The Bad Beards (ID)
    Clan Skuf (DH)
    Zee Brood (SA)
    The Crown of Fangs [the strings behind the fools] (VC)
  • Traumdieb wrote:

    Cam wrote:

    Martins9thAge wrote:

    And why don't we say that with RES 2 and 5+, they will fall much easier than other cores of the same value in points with ranged atacks? xD
    3+ AS though. So value wise legionnaires wont drop easier.
    How do get legonaries get on 3+? Blackfur veterans can have a 3+ vs. shooting.
    Actually I like that rule but am torn, that those can switch within the game since 3+ feels a bit to high amour save for those guys. Considering that they are core, bodyguard for senate general (which will this be anyway).
    Yeah sorry those guys.

    For an non-elite army to have the same armour as elite dwarves but in core isn't right at all.
    Free command groups for standard infantry
  • Gingersmali wrote:

    Traumdieb wrote:

    @Cam totally agree. Think light amour and 4+ vs. shooting would suffice esspecially since they are the cheapest bodyguard. Is there another bodyguard at core at all?
    The bodyguard upgrade makes them come from special. See description of [sp].
    fair point. My bad.
    The Bad Beards (ID)
    Clan Skuf (DH)
    Zee Brood (SA)
    The Crown of Fangs [the strings behind the fools] (VC)
  • arwaker wrote:

    Is it plausible that Senator and Bloodfur Commander have similar item budgets? Senator is a rich politician and the Bloodfur is "only" a soldier. Would 150 not be sufficient? Sure, that would require the Doomblade to become cheaper (and of course weaker) but that is probably anyway a thing.

    On the other hand I think that the items for the Senator could be increased a bit in power to allow him to utilize his 200 budget. Currently I can hardly see how he ever would get his bag full.
    The doomblade is already very bad, why would you make it weaker
  • rambage wrote:

    arwaker wrote:

    Is it plausible that Senator and Bloodfur Commander have similar item budgets? Senator is a rich politician and the Bloodfur is "only" a soldier. Would 150 not be sufficient? Sure, that would require the Doomblade to become cheaper (and of course weaker) but that is probably anyway a thing.

    On the other hand I think that the items for the Senator could be increased a bit in power to allow him to utilize his 200 budget. Currently I can hardly see how he ever would get his bag full.
    The doomblade is already very bad, why would you make it weaker
    How you can call doomblade bad? The idea is exactly same as with maxed out Dwarf characters - you pay a lot of points for character that either is not killable (and opponent can't win big) either have big chances to shred opponent into pieces.
  • New

    Except that a character with a doomblade can do a single thing: monster or character hunter. We already have tools for monster hunting, and guess what units can either withstand or outspeed a doomblade equipped vermin? That's right, characters.

    If you come across something that hits before you, the wearer is toast, mainly due to horrible defenses and sinking all your points into the doomblade
  • New

    The charakter with doomblade will also be a class A counter to every monstrous infantry/cavalry unit making it impossible for these units to charge the unit the doomblade guy is inside.

    There are not so many things that hit before the rat guy.
    Some charakters way above his price class mostly. And his protection is okish against normal R&F models so that it is not always wise to aim a lot of attacks on him and autloose the CR then.
  • New

    WarX wrote:

    @AlexCat Why rats should use better formation then Dwarves? 7 on 7 dwarves deal 11-12 wounds, rats 4-5 and Dwarves still win when charging ;)
    Charging dwarves can win first round, rats are steadfast. After that dwarves lose.

    fadenye wrote:

    AlexCat wrote:

    fadenye wrote:

    Saurus Warriors with spears will win combat every round and they will wipe each other out about the same pace.
    You can get 22 saurus warriors with spears for 450 pts. Lets put them 7 wide. Rats go 7 wide too as usual.If they charge rats, rats do 43 attacks with ap3 first round and kill 7 saurus. Remaining 15 saurus do 12.7 wounds.Combat resolution is 7+ 3 ranks + banner = 11 for the rats. 12.7/2 + 1 rank + banner + charge = 10 for saurus. Following rounds saurus start losing models and ranks and it goes downhill for them.
    If rats charged, saurus would have had 6+ AS and would lose 5.8 but rats would have the charge bonus, so it wouldnt change much.
    Rats won again.
    How do you get 43 attacks on Vermin?7 Wide you say and they fight in 5 ranks. 35 attacks +1 champion.

    60x Vermin fcmd
    36A * 1/2 * 1/3 * 5/6 = 5 models killed
    Combat res 5 + 1(std) + 3(ranks) = 9

    22x(17x left) Saurus spears fcmd 6 Wide
    24A * (2/3 + 1/6 * 2/3) * 5/6 = 15.55 models killed
    Combat res 8 + 1(std) + 2(ranks) = 11

    Rats lost by 2.
    Even with charge bonus or +1AP first round for Vermin they still loose by 1.

    In reality Saurus buys a few more models and won't loose attacks to the first few wounds and it will make it an easy win while Legionaires are already maxed.
    My bad. So, the saurus will win the first round. But starting from the second round, they will lose.

    I get the argument about bigger unit, I just wanted to consider how bigger they should be to reliably beat this one.

    I saw this kind of unit in two games, then did this kind of math and flagged this unit as problematic personally. Factors that weighted in heavily were : steadfast, agi, AP and spells effect for them.
  • New

    AlexCat wrote:

    My bad. So, the saurus will win the first round. But starting from the second round, they will lose.

    I get the argument about bigger unit, I just wanted to consider how bigger they should be to reliably beat this one.

    I saw this kind of unit in two games, then did this kind of math and flagged this unit as problematic personally. Factors that weighted in heavily were : steadfast, agi, AP and spells effect for them.
    I agree that Vermin Legionaries and Blackfur Veterans can be a bit over the top. How to solve it is another issue without nerfing them too much and back to a useless tarpit. We have slaves already and don't need more tarpits. For example the Cohort Coordination could have FIER2 only when 5 model width and FIER(1) when wider. Other smaller adjustments could also be tested, like adjusting the Alchemist unit buff to something other then AGI.

    At the same time it would not be bad to make the special infantry better since Bloodfur Praetorians seems like a downgrade from Blackfur Veterans and then they are from special on top of that. Plague Disciples are also special now but not that great either and the Great weapon on Plague Disciples is not good as well.
    We have not had special infantry blocks before and it always felt like that was the reason why we could not have any good elite infantry. Now is the chance to make some special infantry block that stands out. Seems like a good combination with down tuning the core infantry some.
    Compare VS special infantry against other races elite infantry =)
  • New

    Just an FYI. I’ve read the questions regarding the Eagle Standards and stacking them. They do not stack for an infinite number of minimized rolls. It will be reflected better in the update. It should be the “one or more” clause in there.
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT