VS LAB Alpha Discussions

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  • Just Wes wrote:

    The Unmarked wrote:

    Necrosa wrote:

    On other subjects I'm a little bit worried about the "fake diversity" that appears through the way the book is used.

    Legat only used to carry the doomblade
    Assassins that must be used by 3
    Senator almost mandatory if you don't take the big dictator thing....
    Priests that have become the only magical option if you don't take the Demon...

    It's actually the biggest problem I feel from the book.
    Agreed. I have little motivation to change what I take in my Characters section from list to list.
    Have to say, as an outsider looking in, this seems to be very accurate. I don't think I've seen much variation at all in the characters. I don't think it's anything to do with the characters themselves, so much as the items they have access to.
    If you're taking a Bloodfur Legate, you give him the Doomblade and Swiftness. Obviously this guy can't be your General, so you take a Senator. The difference between minimised discipline 7 and 8 is massive, so you give the Senator the Crown of Autocracy.
    Add the 3 Swarm Priests for a Triumvirate and you're not left with much space for variation.
    You don't have to take a senator as your general with a doom blade. Can still take a dictator. You don't have to take triumvirate. LD 7 is very playable (even 6). Crown is not must take at all. Basically your assumptions take you to the same place every time not the book.
  • Necrosa wrote:

    On other subjects I'm a little bit worried about the "fake diversity" that appears through the way the book is used.

    Legat only used to carry the doomblade
    Assassins that must be used by 3
    Senator almost mandatory if you don't take the big dictator thing....
    Priests that have become the only magical option if you don't take the Demon...

    It's actually the biggest problem I feel from the book.
    This is a very good point. - I'm not sure I thought about it this way before you pointed it out. This is certainly part of the reason that list building feels so bland.
  • Cultivator wrote:

    Just Wes wrote:

    The Unmarked wrote:

    Necrosa wrote:

    On other subjects I'm a little bit worried about the "fake diversity" that appears through the way the book is used.

    Legat only used to carry the doomblade
    Assassins that must be used by 3
    Senator almost mandatory if you don't take the big dictator thing....
    Priests that have become the only magical option if you don't take the Demon...

    It's actually the biggest problem I feel from the book.
    Agreed. I have little motivation to change what I take in my Characters section from list to list.
    Have to say, as an outsider looking in, this seems to be very accurate. I don't think I've seen much variation at all in the characters. I don't think it's anything to do with the characters themselves, so much as the items they have access to.If you're taking a Bloodfur Legate, you give him the Doomblade and Swiftness. Obviously this guy can't be your General, so you take a Senator. The difference between minimised discipline 7 and 8 is massive, so you give the Senator the Crown of Autocracy.
    Add the 3 Swarm Priests for a Triumvirate and you're not left with much space for variation.
    You don't have to take a senator as your general with a doom blade. Can still take a dictator. You don't have to take triumvirate. LD 7 is very playable (even 6). Crown is not must take at all. Basically your assumptions take you to the same place every time not the book.
    Left or right, i agree that it feels more restrictive than in other armies. And imo should be changed (more char points, a change in the truimvate rules on wizards and assasins by making them duo's or something).
  • My point is these things (Doomblade BFL, Crown Senator, Triumvirate Priests) are hands down better than the alternatives.

    Doomblade is S10, AP10, MW (D6), Divine Attacks. What weapon enchantment comes close? What can you spend 300pts in characters that will be scarier than that?

    Senator with Crown of Autocracy offers Discipline 8, minimised, and Rally Around the Flag when you use Eagle Banners. What can you spend 215pts on that gives a better General than that?

    After these 2 you'll need a magic phase. So you take a Triumvirate.

    They're just better options compared to the alternatives.
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  • Just Wes wrote:

    My point is these things (Doomblade BFL, Crown Senator, Triumvirate Priests) are hands down better than the alternatives.

    Doomblade is S10, AP10, MW (D6), Divine Attacks. What weapon enchantment comes close? What can you spend 300pts in characters that will be scarier than that?

    Senator with Crown of Autocracy offers Discipline 8, minimised, and Rally Around the Flag when you use Eagle Banners. What can you spend 215pts on that gives a better General than that?

    After these 2 you'll need a magic phase. So you take a Triumvirate.

    They're just better options compared to the alternatives.
    I think Dictator is just is good. You don't mention the cost of the bunker. He has very poor manoeuvrability compared to Dictator so he can't react well to changes in the game. Often he must move away from even the smallest threat eg totemic summon because if he gets pinned in combat you could lose him which can take away your bubble from where it's needed. Dictator can move easily in any direction to bring his bubble where its needed. Has a similar cost if you include bunker but gives you a combat monster who can defend himself and in fact your whole back line and an adept. Both have strengths and weaknesses and both are usable.

    Triumvirate is not must take. "So you take a Triumvirate." This is literally just your assumption magic needed = triumvirate. I've played no magic, one adept and bound spells, two adepts, triumvirate, and triumvirate with all the bells and whistles and they all work ok. Triumvirate with no upgrades is 645 points which is a big outlay for +0 to cast. It's the same cost as a cuatl with maxed disciplines and it aint no cuatl. You could for example take 15 brutes for cheaper and 15 brutes on the table is a game changer just like magic.
  • Those smaller magic options may be ok for the odd game and friendly but in a comparative environment and tournaments you need to have the versatility and support that a good magic phase gives you.

    I played a tournament with just two adepts and only 4 spells was very underwhelming. The opponents dispelled pretty much everything important. Without access to the big powerful spells I didn't have what I needed in any of the games.

    I do think it's either triumvirate or nothing
  • Cultivator wrote:

    You don't have to take a senator as your general with a doom blade. Can still take a dictator. You don't have to take triumvirate. LD 7 is very playable (even 6). Crown is not must take at all. Basically your assumptions take you to the same place every time not the book.
    My main opponent is VC who have lots of access to Fear and Whispers of the Veil. Your probability of passing a Minimized rerollable Discipline 5 test is 77%. (Discipline 4 is a 58% chance) If a single Eagle Standard unit flees, that whole flank/section is...tenuous at best. I'll avoid hyperbole. Discipline 8 means that even after a Leadership bomb I'm still testing on discipline 6. that's a 90% probability to pass.

    imo Crown is auto-include
    Obsidian Rock or Destiny's Call are auto-include
    Binding scroll is HIGHLY recommended

    I agree about the Triumvirate not being necessary.
  • I think the best thing would be to make a rule that says the senator can't take the autocracy crown (or if you want to go further, that there can't be an autocracy crown in an army where there is a senator) but that an additional senator gives +1Dis to the general and make a senator-only item so that if the general dies, the wearer becomes a general.
    Also make mage platforms have +1Dis, so you can make a mage general on platform if you want and along with my senator proposal, he would have Dis7.
    There could even be a house prefect with Dis6 thanks to the senator.
  • I don't mean that I don't understand and like your idea @xaby86 - neither I mean that I don't understand why the project would like to see senators in the book - but I still don't understand why there would be civilians (and moreover VIP) on a battlefield. It doesn't make sense.

    Unless they got a minimal military training.

    So first, I think Senator melee profile shall be increased and secondly I think it would be definitely be consistent that houses could access to senatorial functions. And it's fully compatible with the idea in the post above.
  • Well, you can see in many pictures, stories and films fat priests with a stick and a cross in front of the army, counsellors standing next to their lords, also, behind each army was another army of almost equal size of servants, salesmen and "women of merry life" to satisfy the needs of the soldiery. Civilians are no strangers to battles, only they should not be in the front rank.
  • Necrosa wrote:

    I don't mean that I don't understand and like your idea @xaby86 - neither I mean that I don't understand why the project would like to see senators in the book - but I still don't understand why there would be civilians (and moreover VIP) on a battlefield. It doesn't make sense.


    it is the roman way. They did it for a milennia. Julius Caesar was a civilian VIP until he died.

    crassus is the richest civilian ever to command an army. :)

    senators and civilians were in the army and army commanders to ensure their own political power back home. A noble without military experience
    had No chance to reach high in roman society. :)

    i guess This is true for avras as well
    :)
  • xaby86 wrote:

    I think the best thing would be to make a rule that says the senator can't take the autocracy crown (or if you want to go further, that there can't be an autocracy crown in an army where there is a senator) but that an additional senator gives +1Dis to the general and make a senator-only item so that if the general dies, the wearer becomes a general.
    Also make mage platforms have +1Dis, so you can make a mage general on platform if you want and along with my senator proposal, he would have Dis7.
    There could even be a house prefect with Dis6 thanks to the senator.
    I Think giving mage on platform +1 disc is the best idea I have seen to enable other general than senator.
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  • Just Wes wrote:

    My point is these things (Doomblade BFL, Crown Senator, Triumvirate Priests) are hands down better than the alternatives.

    Doomblade is S10, AP10, MW (D6), Divine Attacks. What weapon enchantment comes close? What can you spend 300pts in characters that will be scarier than that?

    Senator with Crown of Autocracy offers Discipline 8, minimised, and Rally Around the Flag when you use Eagle Banners. What can you spend 215pts on that gives a better General than that?

    After these 2 you'll need a magic phase. So you take a Triumvirate.

    They're just better options compared to the alternatives.
    I'm not a VS player but this is silly. Sure, this 215pts model gives some great leadership buffs, but he is also incredibly vulnerable to snipes or literally anything that comes close to him.

    I just read the book and really liked the doomblade and would encourage the team not to change it. It's the sort of fun fluffy thing that ninth age is often accused of eschewing. As to your question, I can't think of anything for 300pts from the characters section that does more damage, but I also can't think of anything for 300pts from the characters section that is meant to fight and is more vulnerable to damage. The idea that having one character that makes it impossible for you to charge your uber monster/character into one infantry unit for the first couple of turns is going to break the game is kinda ridiculous. The item is fun, unique, fluffy, and has fairly straightforward counterplay.
  • arwaker wrote:

    I don't feel a priest should be the general. It does not feel Roman to me :(
    This isn't really a fair argument... I think most players are comfortable with the names and some of the unit playstyles to come from the Roman theme.
    However I believe that we don't really want to actually have a copy of the Roman empire but with rats!
    We shouldn't pass on ideas just because they are 'not' like the Romans.

    There is no point in limiting our options just because some people like Romans
  • The thing is who in world would play a senator if you can also have a Dis7 general who is also a wizard and has the same 18 inch Dis bubbel on platform?

    But IMO this is the whole problem with the VS character section. As disigned they only have one roll. Because of this you need more "cheap" characters, to get the same profits other army's have combined in a few characters. In the end you pay the same and often even more for the same amount of abilities unless you chose to skipp on them. And VS only have 1575 char points instead of the usual 1800. They should at least give VS 1800 ptns.
  • Bulls Eye wrote:

    The thing is who in world would play a senator if you can also have a Dis7 general who is also a wizard and has the same 18 inch Dis bubbel on platform?

    But IMO this is the whole problem with the VS character section. As disigned they only have one roll. Because of this you need more "cheap" characters, to get the same profits other army's have combined in a few characters. In the end you pay the same and often even more for the same amount of abilities unless you chose to skipp on them. And VS only have 1575 char points instead of the usual 1800. They should at least give VS 1800 ptns.
    since the priests are dis5, and the proposal included no crown for VS, I Don t see dis 7 in a priest general
  • rolan wrote:

    Bulls Eye wrote:

    The thing is who in world would play a senator if you can also have a Dis7 general who is also a wizard and has the same 18 inch Dis bubbel on platform?

    But IMO this is the whole problem with the VS character section. As disigned they only have one roll. Because of this you need more "cheap" characters, to get the same profits other army's have combined in a few characters. In the end you pay the same and often even more for the same amount of abilities unless you chose to skipp on them. And VS only have 1575 char points instead of the usual 1800. They should at least give VS 1800 ptns.
    since the priests are dis5, and the proposal included no crown for VS, I Don t see dis 7 in a priest general
    ah my bad. I did not saw the proposal excluded the crown.

    I still think char points should go up to 1800
  • xaby86 wrote:

    Well, you can see in many pictures, stories and films fat priests with a stick and a cross in front of the army, counsellors standing next to their lords, also, behind each army was another army of almost equal size of servants, salesmen and "women of merry life" to satisfy the needs of the soldiery. Civilians are no strangers to battles, only they should not be in the front rank.

    Davian wrote:

    Necrosa wrote:

    I don't mean that I don't understand and like your idea @xaby86 - neither I mean that I don't understand why the project would like to see senators in the book - but I still don't understand why there would be civilians (and moreover VIP) on a battlefield. It doesn't make sense.
    it is the roman way. They did it for a milennia. Julius Caesar was a civilian VIP until he died.
    crassus is the richest civilian ever to command an army. :)

    senators and civilians were in the army and army commanders to ensure their own political power back home. A noble without military experience
    had No chance to reach high in roman society. :)

    i guess This is true for avras as well
    :)
    You're both so true. And I think I just begin to understand what was the purpose of this character.

    So, even it's not so easy to illustrate all this part of a real life battle I think there shall be some ways to improve it and make the Senator a real Commander - and I don't know if senator is the best name for this character.

    It should get back the vox populi in his basic profile, add the toga and ex battered laurel's rules in it's standard profile and may be get some more rule to put in emphasis his strategic competences (something else than the countless legions rule wich is a fully different way to play the army).